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If Jesus spoke, ''father, why have you forsaken me'', then why would Xians worship the father?

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I don't. If he claims that he claimed that he was sacrificing himself.

Here is a much better one he could have referred to.

Psalms 91

1He who dwells in the covert of the Most High will lodge in the shadow of the Almighty. איֹשֵׁב בְּסֵתֶר עֶלְיוֹן בְּצֵל שַׁדַּי יִתְלוֹנָן:
2I shall say of the Lord [that He is] my shelter and my fortress, my God in Whom I trust. באֹמַר לַיהֹוָה מַחְסִּי וּמְצוּדָתִי אֱלֹהַי אֶבְטַח בּוֹ:
3For He will save you from the snare that traps from the devastating pestilence. גכִּי הוּא יַצִּילְךָ מִפַּח יָקוּשׁ מִדֶּבֶר הַוּוֹת:
4With His wing He will cover you, and under His wings you will take refuge; His truth is an encompassing shield. דבְּאֶבְרָתוֹ | יָסֶךְ לָךְ וְתַחַת כְּנָפָיו תֶּחְסֶּה צִנָּה וְסֹחֵרָה אֲמִתּוֹ:
5You will not fear the fright of night, the arrow that flies by day; הלֹא תִירָא מִפַּחַד לָיְלָה מֵחֵץ יָעוּף יוֹמָם:
6Pestilence that prowls in darkness, destruction that ravages at noon. ומִדֶּבֶר בָּאֹפֶל יַהֲלֹךְ מִקֶּטֶב יָשׁוּד צָהֳרָיִם:
7A thousand will be stationed at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it will not approach you. זיִפֹּל מִצִּדְּךָ | אֶלֶף וּרְבָבָה מִימִינֶךָ אֵלֶיךָ לֹא יִגָּשׁ:
8You will but gaze with your eyes, and you will see the annihilation of the wicked. חרַק בְּעֵינֶיךָ תַבִּיט וְשִׁלֻּמַת רְשָׁעִים תִּרְאֶה:
9For you [said], "The Lord is my refuge"; the Most High you made your dwelling. טכִּי אַתָּה יְהֹוָה מַחְסִּי עֶלְיוֹן שַׂמְתָּ מְעוֹנֶךָ:
10No harm will befall you, nor will a plague draw near to your tent. ילֹא תְאֻנֶּה אֵלֶיךָ רָעָה וְנֶגַע לֹא יִקְרַב בְּאָהֳלֶךָ:
11For He will command His angels on your behalf to guard you in all your ways. יאכִּי מַלְאָכָיו יְצַוֶּה לָּךְ לִשְׁמָרְךָ בְּכָל דְּרָכֶיךָ:
12On [their] hands they will bear you, lest your foot stumble on a stone. יבעַל כַּפַּיִם יִשָּׂאוּנְךָ פֶּן תִּגֹּף בָּאֶבֶן רַגְלֶךָ:
13On a young lion and a cobra you will tread; you will trample the young lion and the serpent. יגעַל שַׁחַל וָפֶתֶן תִּדְרֹךְ תִּרְמֹס כְּפִיר וְתַנִּין:
14For he yearns for Me, and I shall rescue him; I shall fortify him because he knows My name. ידכִּי בִי חָשַׁק וַאֲפַלְּטֵהוּ אֲשַׂגְּבֵהוּ כִּי יָדַע שְׁמִי:
15He will call Me and I shall answer him; I am with him in distress; I shall rescue him and I shall honor him. טויִקְרָאֵנִי | וְאֶעֱנֵהוּ עִמּוֹ אָנֹכִי בְצָרָה אֲחַלְּצֵהוּ וַאֲכַבְּדֵהוּ:
16With length of days I shall satiate him, and I shall show him My salvation.


With all due respect this sounds more like someone giving praise because of suffering as opposed to someone actually suffering a horrible human death. I think that I would be more to cussing than praising if I were the guest of honor at a Roman lynching.
 

Dionysus

┏(°.°)┛┗(°.°)┓┗(°.°)┛┏(°.°)┓
Pyrotheology suggests that, at that moment, Jesus was an atheist. Jesus killed God.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Well, I don't know the Rabbi's name or his educational background or have any source which substantiates his claim, so I can't really be persuaded from my position and what I have learned textually by a third hand account of a completely different approach.

Well, you are certainly right in your first statement, and there may be other explanations for Yeshua's last word, but I'm just the messenger. So, what's your take?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
So it was a very wussy way to meet your death.

To meet your death by praising God, you mean?

Well, to me, Jesus...if any of this actually happened...he was merely behaving as perhaps any believing human would...questioning his Creator as to why he is allowing such tragedy to befall him, ESPECIALLY when he was faithful to his 'father?' I have often looked at the horrific violence and so on that has been going on in the world, and wonder...where is God in all of this?

To me, it's natural to have behaved as he did, and the most challenging part of Jesus' teachings were to forgive one's oppressors, no matter how far they go to persecute you. That is the miracle of faith.

I would make a good Christian...wait what? ^_^
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Well, you are certainly right in your first statement, and there may be other explanations for Yeshua's last word, but I'm just the messenger. So, what's your take?
It is a strange thing to have happened -- and, if we assume that the gospel texts are accurate (itself a heckuva presumption) then we have to wonder why this particular verse was being quoted (especially somewhat misquoted). And honestly, after making all the leaps necessary to make this worth analysis, I'm stumped. If it isn't a literary allusion, or a later application to invoke prophetic words, but is instead something from Jesus himself then I start with the question "why would he be saying anything at all" and then I ask more questions from there.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

I think first of all it might be pointed out that Jesus expressing an experience of feeling abandoned by God does not immediately constitute Jesus actually being abandoned by God, unless you assume a certain view of Jesus which already completely diminishes his humanity, such that he can never give expression to something unless it's "literally" true. But human expressions, human words, are more than informational propositions. They are more than assertions of truth. If Jesus is human (regardless of whether he's "more" than human), it is not immediately clear that the quote should be elevated to an absolute expression of a metaphysical truth.

Having said that, it's interesting that the four gospels all offer somewhat different accounts of the crucifixion. These words appear in Matthew and Mark, but not Luke or John. In the versions where it appears, Jesus says nothing else during the time. In John he says words to the disciples, is thirsty, and declares "it is finished!" In Luke he promises paradise to the robber, asks his Father to forgive the ones crucifying him, and commends his spirit into that same Father's hands. So one answer to your first question could be that the early church, in writing down the gospels, did not consider it be the case that God actually abandoned Jesus.

Beyond that, I think as far as understanding the text, the words that are reported, we could approach them in three ways:

1) If Jesus really said them, how did he understand what he was saying? What does it mean for him in that moment?
2) 2 authors of gospels included these words. How did they understand them? What did they want to convey to their audience by including them?
3) What do they mean to me, now? Which is not necessarily a completely separate question, but could still have a distinct answer

How did Jesus understand his own experience?

Do we even dare to attempt an answer? Can we really know this in a way that can deserve to be called more than pious speculation? Do we run the risk of merely offering an answer designed to satisfy our prior theological convictions? And it's not even just a question that's difficult because it's about Jesus. It seems that to interrogate the very personal experience of anyone in such a situation is delicate. The most obvious answer is that he felt abandoned by God. I wouldn't want to explain away the obvious just to make a certain theology feel more confortable.

At the same time, all the gospels report that Jesus spoke of God as his Father. His Abba, even. This was an unusual way of speaking about God, there is an intimacy that is not common in his culture at that time. They also report Jesus praying with pain and blood in Gethsemene, "take this cup away from me. Nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will". Everything we can possibly know about Jesus' own experience comes filtered through the memories and agendas of his followers. That matters and shouldn't be forgotten, but it does seem to me that this intimacy with the Father that Jesus expressed in the gospels should inform how we might hear these words also. As should the fact that it is a quotation from the Psalms. Without venturing into the theological, I hear it as a cry of pain and suffering and bewilderment that nevertheless finds expression within the very tradition and understanding that it seems to question. Jesus may feel abandoned, but the very act of quoting a psalm to express it is to affirm the importance of that relationship with God as Father that it seems he feel so deeply.

How did the gospel authors understand it? Why did they include it?

It seems clear at least that the authors of Matthew and Mark did not believe that God had truly abandoned Jesus. They report his death occurring simultaneously with the tearing of the veil in the Holy of Holies, an earthquake, open tombs, the darkening sky, all these tumults causing being signs of the importance of what has occurred, and causing the centurion to exclaim "truly this is the Son of God" Whatever significance they gave those words specifically, it's clear it wasn't to agree with the bystanders who thought that if God was truly his Father that he would be saved from the cross. But like John, they seem to have accepted that his kingdom was not of this world. It also seems clear from Matthew's exposition of the roman guards remembering how Jesus was supposed to have said that he would rebuild the temple in 3 days, or the prayer of Gethsemene, that the author understood the death of Jesus as being a necessary thing, ordained by God, a burden taken on freely by Jesus. It seems to me that they hear it as bearing the great weight of this death, it's importance and solemnity. Citing Hebrews, we could conjecture that its very expression of humanity mattered to them, that we have a High Priest who can empathize with our humanity. Really, they don't say anything about the expression directly, so it's only from the immediate context, the phrase from the centurion that "truly this is the son of God" that I think we might infer a little.

How do I hear it? What does it mean for me?

It seems to me that there is something in the ambiguity of the expression, that it despairs and feels lost yet at the same time expresses that confusion with a psalm, within the very context of that intimacy with God -- not only as Father but as Abba. It seems to me that the great difficulty of Christianity and a Christian understanding in the context of modern life is expressed by this ambiguity. There is the problem of evil and suffering, or the difficulties reconciling Christian tradition with the rapid advances in science and technology, changing cultures and morality, questions about faith and the miraculous, and etc. In all of this it seems that we have lost our myths and don't know what to replace them with. The "hiddenness" of God and the uncertain intellectual foundation of faith. The failures of many church structures and organizations. Our own failures. Perhaps it's audacious to compare all that to the experience of death by crucifixion, but the existential angst of it feels similar, at least to me. And yet I also express that struggle with the very symbols that the struggle calls into question, and that is also meaningful to me.

Where does this experience go? I prefer to leave it open. What I take away from it is the very human experience of contingency, of humility, of not having every answer, not knowing everything, not even needing to know everything. I experience God and that experience is profound, even though at times I'm at a loss to understand what it means or how it all fits together. It seems to me to be something constitutive of being human.
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.
Jesus was quoting scripture. That statement is in Psalms.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
It is a strange thing to have happened -- and, if we assume that the gospel texts are accurate (itself a heckuva presumption) then we have to wonder why this particular verse was being quoted (especially somewhat misquoted). And honestly, after making all the leaps necessary to make this worth analysis, I'm stumped. If it isn't a literary allusion, or a later application to invoke prophetic words, but is instead something from Jesus himself then I start with the question "why would he be saying anything at all" and then I ask more questions from there.


So you're saying, for lack of a better answer, the Rabbi was probably right.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.

Jesus needed to suffer through the atonement on his own without the support of his Heavenly Father. Only Jesus was qualified to atone. The Father withdrew (forsook) because it was necessary to allow Jesus to do this on his own. It appears that even Jesus did not understand what it would take, the full suffering required, and that the Father would withdraw to allow him to do it alone.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I'd forgotten about it, but I recall reading his translation of the Pe****ta probably 10+ years ago and seeing his notes on that. I'm not really clear on how compelling the textual evidence is, but thanks for the reminder.
 

Wharton

Active Member
When Jesus "signs on" to the human experience via the incarnation, he also gets to experience the separation from God caused by sin, thus he is forsaken.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.

Not, obviously, that I have any answer to your Christian theological question, but FWIW, what he appears to have actually been quoted as saying is given as "Eli Eli lama shevaktani," which is an Aramaic translation of "Eli Eli lama 'azavtani," which is Ps. 22:2.

Verse one of that Psalm is actually not poetic content ("Lamenatzeyach: ayelet hashachar. Mizmor l'David," which probably means "For the choir leader, [to be recited at the appearance of] the morning star. A psalm of David."), thus verse two is, in terms of actual poetic content, really the first verse of the psalm. And it is, and was at that time also, common practice amongst Jews to refer to psalms by their first line (especially since at that time they had not been officially numbered yet).

So what the account really means is that Jesus recited Psalm 22 at that point; possibly in an Aramaic translation, or the Aramaic translation of the first line of the psalm may have come from an Aramaic source text used by the later gospel composer or redactor. The latter strikes me as more likely, since, even if there were, in fact, Aramaic translations of psalms available at that point (which is unclear), Jews have always preferred to use Hebrew in prayer, and to recite Tanach (scriptures) in Hebrew when possible.
 

Sariel

Heretic
Because you are reading the text too literally. The whole Passion episode is a giant Psalm 22 tribute.
-Rejected and mocked by the people
But I am a worm, not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
All who see me jeer at me;
they sneer and shake their heads:
“He committed himself to Adonai,
so let him rescue him!

Let him set him free
if he takes such delight in him!


-Crucified
Pierced my hands and feet (LXX ver.)

-The Romans casting lots for his belongings and mocking him
They divide my garments among themselves;
for my clothing they throw dice


And then the final closing reference to the Psalm: "My God! My God!", which eventually ends on a hopeful note.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Maybe Jesus was just wondering if maybe the Father (who I believe is God) forsake him because of some specific event? I think the Father did not forsake him and Jesus misunderstood Him. Perhaps more context can be helpful. Is the story behind that verse known?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Verse one of that Psalm is actually not poetic content ("Lamenatzeyach: ayelet hashachar. Mizmor l'David," which probably means "For the choir leader, [to be recited at the appearance of] the morning star. A psalm of David."), thus verse two is, in terms of actual poetic content, really the first verse of the psalm.
All the Christian translations I've been able to find render that first verse as something like "for the choir leader: set to 'Deer of the Dawn'" like it's quoting the title of a tune.

The way you rendered the verse would probably have theological implications, considering the use elsewhere of "Morning Star" as a reference to Lucifer. Is that how you intended the verse to be taken?
 
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