God and Pre-universe

Thief said:

Let's see.....Something infinitely dense....and no volume.....

Spirit.

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'Something' implies physical geometry whereas 'infinite density/zero volume' or 'infinite volume/zero density' is just an elaborate way to represent 'nothing'.

You get to 'fit in' with your audience and this is fine but it isn't mine.

Gerald Kelleher said:

'Something' implies physical geometry whereas 'infinite density/zero volume' or 'infinite volume/zero density' is just an elaborate way to represent 'nothing'.

You get to 'fit in' with your audience and this is fine but it isn't mine.

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I don't see Spirit as an item of mass.

The Sum of Awe said:

I come across many people that say God existed for an eternity before creation.

Putting aside all the problems coming from that idea. (time before time, eternity implies no end and so here we are, etc)

If God existed eternally before he made the universe, why did it take him so long?

Also, what did he exist in? Space is post-creation, as is time. A sequence of events must have happened before creation, right? So now he has no time.

Time is required to act (create) - Without it, God cannot do any action at all until he created time.

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Your question is founded on your confoundedness. Why do you bother asking questions when you already know you are confounded not confused. You can reach no end, so why start with questions. This mentality brings no Fruit from any of your philosophies.

Eternity exists outside Time. 1.)
Eternity has not ended 2.)
The time between eternity and creation is non existent. 3.)

There is no such thing as Post-creation** is the answer. Perhaps the simplest of facts you and many other atheists have overlooked, while those of faith disregard~ as the very time elapse between their heavenly state of mind and the material plain is non existent: They are one and the same. No division, no consideration, as subconscious fruit.

JosephThomas said:

Your question is founded on your confoundedness. Why do you bother asking questions when you already know you are confounded not confused. You can reach no end, so why start with questions. This mentality brings no Fruit from any of your philosophies.

Eternity exists outside Time. 1.)
Eternity has not ended 2.)
The time between eternity and creation is non existent. 3.)

There is no such thing as Post-creation** is the answer. Perhaps the simplest of facts you and many other atheists have overlooked, while those of faith disregard~ as the very time elapse between their heavenly state of mind and the material plain is non existent: They are one and the same. No division, no consideration, as subconscious fruit.

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Time does not exist.
confound it!

The Sum of Awe said:

I come across many people that say God existed for an eternity before creation.

Putting aside all the problems coming from that idea. (time before time, eternity implies no end and so here we are, etc)

If God existed eternally before he made the universe, why did it take him so long?

Also, what did he exist in? Space is post-creation, as is time. A sequence of events must have happened before creation, right? So now he has no time.

Time is required to act (create) - Without it, God cannot do any action at all until he created time.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't say G-d existed for an eternity before time. Because frankly that doesn't make any sense. I imagine people who are saying it mean that G-d existed before time, they just associate eternity with timelessness.
But with regards to space, my answer is that G-d is not a being that He should need space to occupy. NOt because He is some spiritual being, but because dimensions, even abstract metaphorical ones, do not apply to him.
There was no sequence of events before creation. Creation includes the beginning of space-time.

To believe in god, one must first believe in a 'void' for god to have come from.
Or one must believe in the 'fact' that god existed in the 'void' before the 'creation'.
Or god was not in existence before the 'creation', and wasn't a part of the 'void'.
I find myself asking: "Where did the 'void' start, and how long was it there, before time ?
~
'mud

The Sum of Awe said:

I come across many people that say God existed for an eternity before creation.

Putting aside all the problems coming from that idea. (time before time, eternity implies no end and so here we are, etc)

If God existed eternally before he made the universe, why did it take him so long?

Also, what did he exist in? Space is post-creation, as is time. A sequence of events must have happened before creation, right? So now he has no time.

Time is required to act (create) - Without it, God cannot do any action at all until he created time.

Click to expand...

The Second Dimension is required to note changes in the First.
The Third Dimension is required to note changes in the First and Second.
The Fourth Dimension (which is Time) is required to note changes in the first Three (which are Height, Width, Depth, "Space", as you call it).
To note changes in a Fourth Dimension, mathematically speaking, one would need to exist in a Fifth Dimension.
To be capable of creating the Fourth Dimension, the creator would need to reside in a Fifth (or Higher) Dimension of existence.
With a Fifth Dimension, manipulation of the Fourth (which we call time) is possible.

Action in the First Dimension is only possible if one resides in the Second (or Higher). The same pattern is repeated upward, so a thing existing on a Fifth Dimension could manipulate the Fourth.

But the more satisfying way to put this is "wibbly wobbly, timey wimey."

'mud said:

To believe in god, one must first believe in a 'void' for god to have come from.
Or one must believe in the 'fact' that god existed in the 'void' before the 'creation'.
Or god was not in existence before the 'creation', and wasn't a part of the 'void'.
I find myself asking: "Where did the 'void' start, and how long was it there, before time ?
~
'mud

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There is always that elephant in the tent.

BSM1 said:

There is always that elephant in the tent.

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Stirring up a storm in a nimble going downhill around a bush.

There are no dimensions at the point of singularity.
No height, no width, no length, no movement and therefore no time.

But Someone had to be First.

'mud said:

hey Ger,
A little truth surrounded by encapsulated circles of speed to nowhere.
Time can't be contained in 'movement', it is the result of same.
Nor can it be contained in distance, it is also the product of same.
Don't you think ?
~
'mud

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Hey! ...are you referring to the electron as it moves about the nucleus?!!!!
atta boy Mud!

Thief said:

There are no dimensions at the point of singularity.
No height, no width, no length, no movement and therefore no time.

But Someone had to be First.

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Why someone and not something?

idea said:

Everyone, no matter what their belief is, at some point has to face the eternal abyss of time and space that stretch out before and after us.

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What is that to do with a an imaginary god ?.

Shad said:

Why someone and not something?

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If substance first then all of what we call 'spirit' is chemically bound....and terminal.
If Spirit first.....then we all have a shot at continuance.

and of course science has this firm notion....an item at rest will remain at rest until 'something' moves it.

I say the singularity had a 'snap of God's fingers'

the rotation would be the tell-tale clue.
If the expansion had no rotation prior to the 'bang'.....
then all would be an hollow sphere of a 'burst'.
a simple explosion.

That's not what we see when we look up.

Thief says: "... I say the singularity had a 'snap of God's fingers'... "
And where were His fingers, amongst the void of nothingness,
where nothing could move, going nowhere in the empty infinity.
Even an electron nary there, nor a direction in which to move.
All in one, and nothing to contain it, movement to nowhere.
Amazing nothingness !
~
'mud

Thief said:

If substance first then all of what we call 'spirit' is chemically bound....and terminal.
If Spirit first.....then we all have a shot at continuance.

Click to expand...

Spirit is not a substance nor anything real which does not follow your next statement

and of course science has this firm notion....an item at rest will remain at rest until 'something' moves it.

Click to expand...

Which renders God static since your only recourse is special pleading to get out of this blunder and the previous one

I say the singularity had a 'snap of God's fingers'

Click to expand...

Special pleading

the rotation would be the tell-tale clue.
If the expansion had no rotation prior to the 'bang'.....
then all would be an hollow sphere of a 'burst'.
a simple explosion.

Click to expand...

Rotation of what?

The expansion is spherical as there is no direction point

An explosion is not expansion, you misapplied a term here

That's not what we see when we look up.[/QUOTE]

This is what we see with telescopes.

The Sum of Awe said:

I come across many people that say God existed for an eternity before creation.

Putting aside all the problems coming from that idea. (time before time, eternity implies no end and so here we are, etc)

If God existed eternally before he made the universe, why did it take him so long?

Also, what did he exist in? Space is post-creation, as is time. A sequence of events must have happened before creation, right? So now he has no time.

Time is required to act (create) - Without it, God cannot do any action at all until he created time.

Click to expand...

God did exist eternally before creating (organizing) this heaven and this earth (and not ex-nihilo by the way). I believe the God resides in a sphere of existence or a universe which is infinite and eternal and that this earth and the heaven to which it pertains are like a temporal bubble within the universe in which God resides. I consider it like a finite and temporary bubble within an infinite and eternal ocean. Matter and energy are co-eternal with God; they have also always existed. Time can therefore be considered in two ways. In the case of the temporary earth, there is a set duration. A beginning and an end. For the sake of convention, we all this 'time'. Outside of this temporal sphere of existence (where God dwells) we call it 'eternity'.

Just as this earth is not the center of the universe, neither is it the first world God has ever created, and it won't be the last. Just so, this earth is not in the center of time in terms of God's creations. There is no center of time within eternity. Yes, there is life on other planets. They look just like us because they to have been created in the image of God. To use the vernacular; this isn't God's first rodeo. This is why I don't believe in evolution. It makes no sense for God to keep reinventing the wheel (or human beings). God does not allow contact with these other worlds for the duration of His purposes for us on this earth because it would nullify His purposes. We are here to be tested. Any more knowledge than is expedient for us to have would nullify that test because the test isn't about knowledge, it's about moral choices.

Shad said:

Spirit is not a substance nor anything real which does not follow your next statement



Which renders God static since your only recourse is special pleading to get out of this blunder and the previous one



Special pleading



Rotation of what?

The expansion is spherical as there is no direction point

An explosion is not expansion, you misapplied a term here.

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So...you were unable to follow the line of thought presented.
Shall I try again?
The blunder isn't mine.

Motion requires 'something' to be there.
Substance remains motionless until 'something' moves it.

Spirit first.

'mud said:

Thief says: "... I say the singularity had a 'snap of God's fingers'... "
And where were His fingers, amongst the void of nothingness,
where nothing could move, going nowhere in the empty infinity.
Even an electron nary there, nor a direction in which to move.
All in one, and nothing to contain it, movement to nowhere.
Amazing nothingness !
~
'mud

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did you notice the semi-quotes?....'so to speak'...

amazing grace!

Thief said:

So...you were unable to follow the line of thought presented.
Shall I try again?
The blunder isn't mine.

Motion requires 'something' to be there.
Substance remains motionless until 'something' moves it.

Spirit first.

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If X requires an external source for motion, cause Y, then cause Y requires this as well and so on. You invoke causality then via special pleading render God immune from causality. This is your blunder and special pleading fallacy. Try again