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Is Slavery Objectively Immoral?

Is Slavery Objectively Immoral?

  • YES! The Bible condemns slavery. Hence, God has revealed it to be objectively immoral.

  • NO! The Bible does not condemn slavery. Hence, God has not revealed it to be objectively immoral.


Results are only viewable after voting.

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." ~ Luke 21:33

...

Certain Christians have made the claim that they've received Objective Morality via Divine Revelation. Typically, Objective Morality is defined as morality that is always true irrespective of a person's own subjective opinions … in the same sense that a mathematical equation such as "1 + 1 = 2" is always true irrespective of how an individual might feel about it personally.

Note: For the sake of this argument, I'll be using the term “Divine Revelation” to mean “that which has been revealed via the Bible.” It might be possible that an alleged god might have other methods of revelation, but these other methods would need to be demonstrated if they're to be considered.

...

Q. - The Bible either endorses slavery, or it doesn't endorse slavery, correct?

If you feel compelled to characterize this as a false dichotomy, you are obliged to explain why at your earliest opportunity.

Q. - If it is true that God's Word doesn't condemn slavery (and in fact serves as a “How-To” guide to aspiring slave owners), then are Christians obliged to concede that they cannot appeal to their divine revelation if they wish to characterize slavery as objectively immoral?

"It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution." ~ Kenneth R. Samples (via reasons.org)


...


Department of Yeah-But-You're-Ignoring-The-Context: One might seek to refute the conclusion that Christians cannot characterize slavery as objectively immoral by appealing to the many differences that are evident between our own modern culture and the (more) ignorant, (more) barbaric, Bronze Age culture that is alleged to have served as the initial depository for the Christian god's divine revelations … but this is evidently an argument that some Christians find objectionable:

“The claim that God's Word is bound to time and shackled to the culture of its time does not do justice to God's revelation.” ~ Walt Lampi

...

In fact, if the Christian claim that their god is eternal and unchanging is true, then it evidently follows that this eternal, unchanging god's pronouncements are unchanging because the two are inseparable:


“God and His Word cannot be separated from one another. Scripture bears witness that they are one: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1)." ~ Walt Lampi

If you'd like to disprove Mr. Lampi's assertion that God and His Word are inseparable, now would be a good time to do so. Ideally, you'll cite the Bible to prove your point.

...

Moving along, I'd now like to offer Christians an opportunity to utilize whatever divine revelation they feel is appropriate to prove that slavery is objectively immoral.*

* and don't forget to show your work.

As an additional sort of litmus test, Christians are also invited to either agree or disagree with the following premises (originally published in an 1820 edition of the Richmond Enquirer as what appears to be a religiously-motivated defense of slavery):

Pro-slavery Theists from 1820 said:
I. That the volume of sacred writings commonly called the bible, comprehending the old and new Testaments, contains the unerring decisions of the word of God.


II. That these decisions are of equal authority in both testaments, and that this authority is the essential veracity of God, who is truth itself.


III. That since there can be no prescription against the authority of God, what ever is declared in any part of the holy bible to be lawful or illicit, must be essentially so in its own nature, however repugnant such declaration may be to the current opinions of men during any period of time.


IV. That as the supreme lawgiver and judge of man, God is infinitely just and wise in all decisions, and is essentially irresponsible for the reasons of his conduct in the moral government of the world—so it is culpably audacious in us to question the rectitude of any of those decisions—merely because we do not apprehend the inscrutable principles of such wisdom and justice.


V. That if one, or more decisions of the written word of God, sanction the rectitude of any human acquisitions, for instance, the acquisition of a servant by inheritance or purchase, whoever believes that the written word of God is verity itself, must consequently believe in the absolute rectitude of slave-holding.

The above is cited from The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830 by Larry R. Morrison.

So. Do you agree with all of those premises? Some of them? None of them? Why and/or why not?

...

Q. - Is the abolition of slavery an example of Objective or Subjective morality in action?


Penultimate Question:

Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?

...

How unfortunate that the Christian god didn't see fit to reveal anywhere in the Bible that there would come a day when humanity would view slavery as a moral evil? What a missed opportunity to demonstrate that alleged omniscience!

...

Department of In-Case-You-Needed-It-Spelled-Out-For-You: It is my suspicion that Christians cannot account for the immorality of slavery from within the confines of their faith-based claim of objective morality via divine revelation, and that (when scrutinized) their claim is revealed to be pure, unvarnished twaddle.

...

Final question:

Q. - Did the various authors of the various works that were eventually compiled into the Christian Bible fail to predict a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil simply because they were collectively incapable of imagining a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil?



Postscript: I offer this thread primarily to demonstrate the utter fatuousness of the Christian claim to objective morality via Divine Revelation. Additionally, I'm hoping to point towards some of the inescapable consequences we're obliged to accept (read: that slavery is in fact objectively moral) if this unsubstantiated claim is assumed to be true and we attempt to employ it to make sense of the real world.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Penultimate Question:

Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?

...
I'll just jump to the penultimate question of the OP.

The United States moved closer to godliness by abolishing slavery and being guided by the penultimate Biblical teaching of the Golden Rule: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
 
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Unification

Well-Known Member
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." ~ Luke 21:33

...

Certain Christians have made the claim that they've received Objective Morality via Divine Revelation. Typically, Objective Morality is defined as morality that is always true irrespective of a person's own subjective opinions … in the same sense that a mathematical equation such as "1 + 1 = 2" is always true irrespective of how an individual might feel about it personally.

Note: For the sake of this argument, I'll be using the term “Divine Revelation” to mean “that which has been revealed via the Bible.” It might be possible that an alleged god might have other methods of revelation, but these other methods would need to be demonstrated if they're to be considered.

...

Q. - The Bible either endorses slavery, or it doesn't endorse slavery, correct?

If you feel compelled to characterize this as a false dichotomy, you are obliged to explain why at your earliest opportunity.

Q. - If it is true that God's Word doesn't condemn slavery (and in fact serves as a “How-To” guide to aspiring slave owners), then are Christians obliged to concede that they cannot appeal to their divine revelation if they wish to characterize slavery as objectively immoral?

"It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution." ~ Kenneth R. Samples (via reasons.org)


...


Department of Yeah-But-You're-Ignoring-The-Context: One might seek to refute the conclusion that Christians cannot characterize slavery as objectively immoral by appealing to the many differences that are evident between our own modern culture and the (more) ignorant, (more) barbaric, Bronze Age culture that is alleged to have served as the initial depository for the Christian god's divine revelations … but this is evidently an argument that some Christians find objectionable:

“The claim that God's Word is bound to time and shackled to the culture of its time does not do justice to God's revelation.” ~ Walt Lampi

...

In fact, if the Christian claim that their god is eternal and unchanging is true, then it evidently follows that this eternal, unchanging god's pronouncements are unchanging because the two are inseparable:


“God and His Word cannot be separated from one another. Scripture bears witness that they are one: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1)." ~ Walt Lampi

If you'd like to disprove Mr. Lampi's assertion that God and His Word are inseparable, now would be a good time to do so. Ideally, you'll cite the Bible to prove your point.

...

Moving along, I'd now like to offer Christians an opportunity to utilize whatever divine revelation they feel is appropriate to prove that slavery is objectively immoral.*

* and don't forget to show your work.

As an additional sort of litmus test, Christians are also invited to either agree or disagree with the following premises (originally published in an 1820 edition of the Richmond Enquirer as what appears to be a religiously-motivated defense of slavery):



The above is cited from The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830 by Larry R. Morrison.

So. Do you agree with all of those premises? Some of them? None of them? Why and/or why not?

...

Q. - Is the abolition of slavery an example of Objective or Subjective morality in action?


Penultimate Question:

Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?

...

How unfortunate that the Christian god didn't see fit to reveal anywhere in the Bible that there would come a day when humanity would view slavery as a moral evil? What a missed opportunity to demonstrate that alleged omniscience!

...

Department of In-Case-You-Needed-It-Spelled-Out-For-You: It is my suspicion that Christians cannot account for the immorality of slavery from within the confines of their faith-based claim of objective morality via divine revelation, and that (when scrutinized) their claim is revealed to be pure, unvarnished twaddle.

...

Final question:

Q. - Did the various authors of the various works that were eventually compiled into the Christian Bible fail to predict a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil simply because they were collectively incapable of imagining a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil?



Postscript: I offer this thread primarily to demonstrate the utter fatuousness of the Christian claim to objective morality via Divine Revelation. Additionally, I'm hoping to point towards some of the inescapable consequences we're obliged to accept (read: that slavery is in fact objectively moral) if this unsubstantiated claim is assumed to be true and we attempt to employ it to make sense of the real world.

The "word of God," "scriptures," and the "bible" are all separate.

Your question is suited for the ones who exalt a book over God, and ones who believe the bible, a mere book, is the final authority and the Word of God.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
The "word of God," "scriptures," and the "bible" are all separate.

Your question is suited for the ones who exalt a book over God, and ones who believe the bible, a mere book, is the final authority and the Word of God.

Heaven and earth passing away are not literal.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." ~ Luke 21:33

...

Certain Christians have made the claim that they've received Objective Morality via Divine Revelation. Typically, Objective Morality is defined as morality that is always true irrespective of a person's own subjective opinions … in the same sense that a mathematical equation such as "1 + 1 = 2" is always true irrespective of how an individual might feel about it personally.

Note: For the sake of this argument, I'll be using the term “Divine Revelation” to mean “that which has been revealed via the Bible.” It might be possible that an alleged god might have other methods of revelation, but these other methods would need to be demonstrated if they're to be considered.

...

Q. - The Bible either endorses slavery, or it doesn't endorse slavery, correct?

If you feel compelled to characterize this as a false dichotomy, you are obliged to explain why at your earliest opportunity.

Q. - If it is true that God's Word doesn't condemn slavery (and in fact serves as a “How-To” guide to aspiring slave owners), then are Christians obliged to concede that they cannot appeal to their divine revelation if they wish to characterize slavery as objectively immoral?

"It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution." ~ Kenneth R. Samples (via reasons.org)


...


Department of Yeah-But-You're-Ignoring-The-Context: One might seek to refute the conclusion that Christians cannot characterize slavery as objectively immoral by appealing to the many differences that are evident between our own modern culture and the (more) ignorant, (more) barbaric, Bronze Age culture that is alleged to have served as the initial depository for the Christian god's divine revelations … but this is evidently an argument that some Christians find objectionable:

“The claim that God's Word is bound to time and shackled to the culture of its time does not do justice to God's revelation.” ~ Walt Lampi

...

In fact, if the Christian claim that their god is eternal and unchanging is true, then it evidently follows that this eternal, unchanging god's pronouncements are unchanging because the two are inseparable:


“God and His Word cannot be separated from one another. Scripture bears witness that they are one: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1)." ~ Walt Lampi

If you'd like to disprove Mr. Lampi's assertion that God and His Word are inseparable, now would be a good time to do so. Ideally, you'll cite the Bible to prove your point.

...

Moving along, I'd now like to offer Christians an opportunity to utilize whatever divine revelation they feel is appropriate to prove that slavery is objectively immoral.*

* and don't forget to show your work.

As an additional sort of litmus test, Christians are also invited to either agree or disagree with the following premises (originally published in an 1820 edition of the Richmond Enquirer as what appears to be a religiously-motivated defense of slavery):



The above is cited from The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830 by Larry R. Morrison.

So. Do you agree with all of those premises? Some of them? None of them? Why and/or why not?

...

Q. - Is the abolition of slavery an example of Objective or Subjective morality in action?


Penultimate Question:

Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?

...

How unfortunate that the Christian god didn't see fit to reveal anywhere in the Bible that there would come a day when humanity would view slavery as a moral evil? What a missed opportunity to demonstrate that alleged omniscience!

...

Department of In-Case-You-Needed-It-Spelled-Out-For-You: It is my suspicion that Christians cannot account for the immorality of slavery from within the confines of their faith-based claim of objective morality via divine revelation, and that (when scrutinized) their claim is revealed to be pure, unvarnished twaddle.

...

Final question:

Q. - Did the various authors of the various works that were eventually compiled into the Christian Bible fail to predict a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil simply because they were collectively incapable of imagining a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil?



Postscript: I offer this thread primarily to demonstrate the utter fatuousness of the Christian claim to objective morality via Divine Revelation. Additionally, I'm hoping to point towards some of the inescapable consequences we're obliged to accept (read: that slavery is in fact objectively moral) if this unsubstantiated claim is assumed to be true and we attempt to employ it to make sense of the real world.

For your final question, it's the one's who have taken the scriptures literally for an excuse and reasoning for the allowance and happening of literal slavery. Same one's who have always used scripture and the bible to oppress others, in past, present, and future in endless amounts of ways.

Obviously, literal slavery is not objectively moral, nor is it anywhere literally in scriptures.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." ~ Luke 21:33

Why do people keep misquoting this verse and others like it? They keep missing the qualifying statement or clause. In this case Luke 21:32 -

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all things happen."

From this "but my words will by no means pass away" is a statement of certain fulfillment. It is not a statement of perpetual existence.

/rant off (back to the slavery issue I guess.)
------------------------------------------------------------
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Sorry, I have to break the "but look at the context" rule. There is a perfect example of God not promoting slavery. When, at the command of God, Moses went to the Pharaoh and said to let his people go. God freed the Hebrews from slavery. If He were for it, He would not have reason to free them from bondage.

When I read the Bible, it seems God is going by the time period for which people lived. Abraham had many wives, and God did not say "one man and one woman" then. Later in the years when Jesus stepped into the picture, then it became One man and One woman in marriage.
--
The Bible has slavery in it. It was considered "right" then to own people as property. As far as if slavery was bad then as we are accustomed to think of the word in recent events, that I don't know. God was against a lot of things. He killed people for just turning around in curiosity to see a whole town destroyed and its people.

If anything, slavery in the Bible had to do with people owning others as property. It may have little to do with the beating and abuse we attach to the word slavery today.

The first verse you posted, how does that relate to the slavery questions?
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." ~ Luke 21:33

...

Certain Christians have made the claim that they've received Objective Morality via Divine Revelation. Typically, Objective Morality is defined as morality that is always true irrespective of a person's own subjective opinions … in the same sense that a mathematical equation such as "1 + 1 = 2" is always true irrespective of how an individual might feel about it personally.

Note: For the sake of this argument, I'll be using the term “Divine Revelation” to mean “that which has been revealed via the Bible.” It might be possible that an alleged god might have other methods of revelation, but these other methods would need to be demonstrated if they're to be considered.

...

Q. - The Bible either endorses slavery, or it doesn't endorse slavery, correct?

If you feel compelled to characterize this as a false dichotomy, you are obliged to explain why at your earliest opportunity.

Q. - If it is true that God's Word doesn't condemn slavery (and in fact serves as a “How-To” guide to aspiring slave owners), then are Christians obliged to concede that they cannot appeal to their divine revelation if they wish to characterize slavery as objectively immoral?

"It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution." ~ Kenneth R. Samples (via reasons.org)


...


Department of Yeah-But-You're-Ignoring-The-Context: One might seek to refute the conclusion that Christians cannot characterize slavery as objectively immoral by appealing to the many differences that are evident between our own modern culture and the (more) ignorant, (more) barbaric, Bronze Age culture that is alleged to have served as the initial depository for the Christian god's divine revelations … but this is evidently an argument that some Christians find objectionable:

“The claim that God's Word is bound to time and shackled to the culture of its time does not do justice to God's revelation.” ~ Walt Lampi

...

In fact, if the Christian claim that their god is eternal and unchanging is true, then it evidently follows that this eternal, unchanging god's pronouncements are unchanging because the two are inseparable:


“God and His Word cannot be separated from one another. Scripture bears witness that they are one: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1)." ~ Walt Lampi

If you'd like to disprove Mr. Lampi's assertion that God and His Word are inseparable, now would be a good time to do so. Ideally, you'll cite the Bible to prove your point.

...

Moving along, I'd now like to offer Christians an opportunity to utilize whatever divine revelation they feel is appropriate to prove that slavery is objectively immoral.*

* and don't forget to show your work.

As an additional sort of litmus test, Christians are also invited to either agree or disagree with the following premises (originally published in an 1820 edition of the Richmond Enquirer as what appears to be a religiously-motivated defense of slavery):



The above is cited from The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830 by Larry R. Morrison.

So. Do you agree with all of those premises? Some of them? None of them? Why and/or why not?

...

Q. - Is the abolition of slavery an example of Objective or Subjective morality in action?


Penultimate Question:

Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?

...

How unfortunate that the Christian god didn't see fit to reveal anywhere in the Bible that there would come a day when humanity would view slavery as a moral evil? What a missed opportunity to demonstrate that alleged omniscience!

...

Department of In-Case-You-Needed-It-Spelled-Out-For-You: It is my suspicion that Christians cannot account for the immorality of slavery from within the confines of their faith-based claim of objective morality via divine revelation, and that (when scrutinized) their claim is revealed to be pure, unvarnished twaddle.

...

Final question:

Q. - Did the various authors of the various works that were eventually compiled into the Christian Bible fail to predict a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil simply because they were collectively incapable of imagining a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil?



Postscript: I offer this thread primarily to demonstrate the utter fatuousness of the Christian claim to objective morality via Divine Revelation. Additionally, I'm hoping to point towards some of the inescapable consequences we're obliged to accept (read: that slavery is in fact objectively moral) if this unsubstantiated claim is assumed to be true and we attempt to employ it to make sense of the real world.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
Sorry, I have to break the "but look at the context" rule. There is a perfect example of God not promoting slavery. When, at the command of God, Moses went to the Pharaoh and said to let his people go. God freed the Hebrews from slavery. If He were for it, He would not have reason to free them from bondage.

So let me see if I understand this: God freed His Chosen People from bondage in Egypt so that they'd be free to own slaves of their own up in the Promised Land?

How does that illustrate that slavery is always wrong? Isn't "always wrong" the very definition of "objectively immoral?"

When I read the Bible, it seems God is going by the time period for which people lived.

If God "goes by the time period for which people live" than his moral revelations are 100% subjective, correct?

Abraham had many wives, and God did not say "one man and one woman" then.

Don't people typically point to Adam and Eve as the "one-man-one-woman" trump card?

Later in the years when Jesus stepped into the picture, then it became One man and One woman in marriage.

Again, you appear to be arguing that God's revelations concerning morality are subjective. Thank you for supporting my position that Christians cannot appeal to divine revelation to support their claim(s) of objective morality.

...

The Bible has slavery in it. It was considered "right" then to own people as property.

So let's review: If God's word is unchanging, then what he decreed to be moral then ought to still be moral now, correct?

As far as if slavery was bad then as we are accustomed to think of the word in recent events, that I don't know. God was against a lot of things. He killed people for just turning around in curiosity to see a whole town destroyed and its people.

If you're referring to Sodom and Gomorrah, he is alleged to have killed one person for her curiosity.

If anything, slavery in the Bible had to do with people owning others as property.

Agreed. Slavery tends to be about people owning other people.

It may have little to do with the beating and abuse we attach to the word slavery today.

<<<sigh>>>

"When someone strikes his male or female slave with a rod so that the slave dies under his hand, the act shall certainly be avenged. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." ~ Exodus 21:20-21

Evidently, it is Objectively Moral to beat your slaves to death, as long as they linger on for a few days before they die.

The first verse you posted, how does that relate to the slavery questions?

It demonstrates that God's Word is alleged to be eternal and unchanging.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
Why do people keep misquoting this verse and others like it?

Possible answer: Because so many published translations offer it up to be quoted verbatim?

They keep missing the qualifying statement or clause. In this case Luke 21:32 -

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all things happen."

From this "but my words will by no means pass away" is a statement of certain fulfillment. It is not a statement of perpetual existence.

1.) Please cite the translation you're referencing that includes "but" as the first word in Luke 21:33. Thanks.
2.) Please explain how Luke 21:33 is grammatically contingent on Luke 21:32. Thanks.
3.) Please explain how words that will "by no means" pass away can pass away via "certain fulfillment." Thanks.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
1.) Please cite the translation you're referencing that includes "but" as the first word in Luke 21:33. Thanks.
Lu 21:32,33
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. (33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." - King James Version
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be accomplished. (33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." - American Standard Version
"I tell you verily that this generation shall not pass away till all has taken place. (33) The heavens and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not." - The Bible in Living English

Amen/I am saying/to you(plural)/that/not/not/should pass away/the/generation/this/until/likely/all(things)/might occur./The/heaven/and/the/earth/will pass away,/the/but/words/of me/not/not/will pass away.
- word for word translation from Wescott and Hort master text

The translation I used in my previous quote was the New World Translation (2013 Revision)
"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all things occur. (33) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away."

As can be seen, "but" is not the first word of verse 33, but the first word of the 2nd half of the verse. I think the main focus is the answer to questions 2 and 3 however.

2.) Please explain how Luke 21:33 is grammatically contingent on Luke 21:32. Thanks.

There is a natural break in thought between verses 33 and 34. The line of reasoning goes from the 'Illustration of the fig tree' (vs 29-33) to admonition to 'Keep awake' (vs 34-36). This is a contextual contingency.

3.) Please explain how words that will "by no means" pass away can pass away via "certain fulfillment." Thanks.

As heaven and earth are not always literal but can be symbolic of government and governed, Jesus' words found an initial fulfillment back then. (Da 4:26b)
It was less than 40 years later that the Jewish system of things surrounding temple worship was destroyed at the hands of the Romans.
"Heaven and earth" did pass away. Jesus' prophesy of future events were proven true.
 
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