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Eden and the Tree of Knowledge

ashai

Active Member
DTrent said:
So it was a test of man's respect for his Creator's position and his willingness to remain within the area of freedom decreed by God.

Ushta DTrend

Why would an omniscient God, need to test his creatures?:confused: It certainly could not be to find out if they would obey, because he would have known that before they made the choice.:tsk: The story does not truly make sense even as an example. Like I said it seems like entrapment.

Ushta te
Ashai
The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard:dan:
 

ashai

Active Member
gnostic said:
Third point, is how on how can they distinguish from right and wrong, without eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Eve certainly couldn't distinguish if what the serpent said was deception. Without the fruit of the knowledge, she can't distinguish right from wrong, whether God or the serpent had to say. As I said, without the Tree of Knowledge, they would fall either way, with knowledge or through ignorance, because they are destined to fail, so it is catch-22 for Adam and Eve.

Ushta Gnostic

Precisely!!!:bounce :clap That is whu you were right when you say that god in this story wanted blind , indeed unquestioning, obedience. Frubals to you!

Ushta te
Ashai
The doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard:dan:
 

ashai

Active Member
Katzpur said:
And again, I've stated that I agree with you, with one qualification: They knew that by eating the forbidden fruit, they'd be being disobedient. They knew what the consequences would be.

Ushta Kathryn:)

Which is exactly why the story is not about right or wrong or even about free will, the story is about obey or else and it is unquestioning obedience that god is supposedly demanding in the story!!:D

Ushta te
Ashai
The doctrine of the Most Wise, is to love mankind
Denkard :dan:
 

ashai

Active Member
Harvster said:
True, but does that make them guilty of sins? Is the guillible party guilty or the deceiver
Yes it makes them guilty of sins because one, while Eve was told by Adam not to eat, she still did. When she was deceived she was given a choice, she however instead of trusting Adam trusted satan.

Ushta Harvster

The thing is they had no knowledge of good or evil before they ate the fruit, therefore they had only one option from god was to obey or else. In other words: What god demanded, according to the story, was unquestioning, and thus blind, obedience! Moreover when one errs out i f ignorance of the consequences of one's errors , one can only be guilty if the law is inflexible :tsk: not a characteristic I , for one, will associate with a loving Creator.

Ushta te
Ashai

The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard :dan:
 

ashai

Active Member
Scott1 said:
.... but please also remember that your understanding of the Bible may be flawed... those "archaic and outdated" teachings may just be a matter of a lack of education.

For instance, this topic.:D

The "Tree of Knowledge" in the Genesis story speaks towards DOMINION over good and evil... the very power to decide what is good and what is bad based upon a person's individual whims.... the prohibition against eating from the tree symbolized that man is inteded to rely on God as our creator as the source of what is good or evil.

Peace be with you,
Scott

Ushta Scott:)

First that is one of at least a thousand possible interpretations with no real compelling reason why it must be accepted. But beyond even that, it does not answer the points gnostic was making. If A& E did not know evil, then their act, to them, could not be evil until after the fact. Thus the only thing that the commandment not to eat stood for was the demand of God that he be obeyed or else. According to this story what God wants is blind, unquestioning obedience and if ge does not get it, wow!:banghead3

Ushta te
Ashai
The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard :dan:
 
ashai said:
Ushta Scott:)

First that is one of at least a thousand possible interpretations with no real compelling reason why it must be accepted. But beyond even that, it does not answer the points gnostic was making. If A& E did not know evil, then their act, to them, could not be evil until after the fact. Thus the only thing that the commandment not to eat stood for was the demand of God that he be obeyed or else. According to this story what God wants is blind, unquestioning obedience and if ge does not get it, wow!:banghead3

Ushta te
Ashai
The Doctrine of the Most Wise is to love mankind
Denkard :dan:

Exactly...Pulled the words right out of my mouth. Ashai, did u get my response on the "Who is the Devil" thread?
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
It`s a story about a talking snake and magical fruit.

You tell me what far fetched is.

You beat me to it Linwood.

Victor,

I do not choose not to beleive a literal interpretation of the Bible due to pride or ego or rebelliousness, or whatever other factors you listed which I don't recall at the moment. I wanted my whole life to beleive in the Bible, and I would still love to, its just that I cannot accept something I KNOW to be false. The Bible as literal truth, I know with absolute certainty is not true. The Earth is not 5,667 years old. There was not a Noahic Flood, there was never an Exodus, there was never a Tower of Babel buitl so high that anyone or anything outside of our atmosphere feared man reaching him/it.

I could go on, and often do, but the reasons I do not beleive in the Bible is because I cannot, not because I don't want to. To this day I don't understand how someone can be intelligent and educated in the natural sciences, and in known history and come to the conclusion that the Bible is to be taken literally. Are there good moral lessons illustrated in the Bible? Absolutely. I also love the message that Jesus preached, and I think we should all strive to live in such a way as he is supposed to have preached about. . . but that doesn't mean I can turn off my good sense when looking at the other historical and geological aspects of the Bible.

B.
 
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
I do not choose not to beleive a literal interpretation of the Bible due to pride or ego or rebelliousness, or whatever other factors you listed which I don't recall at the moment. I wanted my whole life to beleive in the Bible, and I would still love to, its just that I cannot accept something I KNOW to be false. The Bible as literal truth, I know with absolute certainty is not true. The Earth is not 5,667 years old. There was not a Noahic Flood, there was never an Exodus, there was never a Tower of Babel buitl so high that anyone or anything outside of our atmosphere feared man reaching him/it.

I agree with most of what you said. But, I have no problem believing that one year, the Hebrews revolted and left Eypt. Do I believe it happened the way the Bible said? Of course not...I dont believe for one second that any of the plagues and Moses' stuff ever happened, but the idea that hundred of slaves revolted and headed into the desert to become a nomadic tribe seems very possible. The Mount Siani thing i dont believe ever happened and the Flood I dont believe happened. But agian, the idea of a mass Exodus, i believe, is possible.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Victor,

I do not choose not to beleive a literal interpretation of the Bible due to pride or ego or rebelliousness, or whatever other factors you listed which I don't recall at the moment. I wanted my whole life to beleive in the Bible, and I would still love to, its just that I cannot accept something I KNOW to be false. The Bible as literal truth, I know with absolute certainty is not true. The Earth is not 5,667 years old. There was not a Noahic Flood, there was never an Exodus, there was never a Tower of Babel buitl so high that anyone or anything outside of our atmosphere feared man reaching him/it.

I could go on, and often do, but the reasons I do not beleive in the Bible is because I cannot, not because I don't want to. To this day I don't understand how someone can be intelligent and educated in the natural sciences, and in known history and come to the conclusion that the Bible is to be taken literally. Are there good moral lessons illustrated in the Bible? Absolutely. I also love the message that Jesus preached, and I think we should all strive to live in such a way as he is supposed to have preached about. . . but that doesn't mean I can turn off my good sense when looking at the other historical and geological aspects of the Bible.

B.

Barking up the wrong tree. I don't take it all literal.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Malkav's Knight said:
I agree with most of what you said. But, I have no problem believing that one year, the Hebrews revolted and left Eypt. Do I believe it happened the way the Bible said? Of course not...I dont believe for one second that any of the plagues and Moses' stuff ever happened, but the idea that hundred of slaves revolted and headed into the desert to become a nomadic tribe seems very possible. The Mount Siani thing i dont believe ever happened and the Flood I dont believe happened. But agian, the idea of a mass Exodus, i believe, is possible.

Why is the other stuff impossible?
 
dan said:
Why is the other stuff impossible?

I never said impossible, how would I know, I wasnt there. But it most likely didnt happen. I mean, come on, A staff becoming a snake, plague wiping out just the first born, parting of the sea. All physically impossible things.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Malkav's Knight said:
I never said impossible, how would I know, I wasnt there. But it most likely didnt happen. I mean, come on, A staff becoming a snake, plague wiping out just the first born, parting of the sea. All physically impossible things.
there are many impossible things made possible in mythology :)
 
Adam was created by God and then placed in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 2:7,8) He was furthermore given instructions by God regarding the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", saying: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."(Gen 2:16,17) Then the Genesis account says that God proceeded to form a wife for Adam, putting Adam in a deep sleep and taking a rib from him and God "proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man."(Gen 2:22) Adam, then in turn, told His wife, Eve, of the command to not eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", for when Eve was being seduced by the serpent, she replied: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’"(Gen 3:2,3) Thus, both Adam and Eve were well aware of God's restriction concerning the "tree of knowledge".
From the very beginning Adam was perfect in every respect, for after his final creative act at the end of the sixth creative day, God said that everything was "very good".(Gen 1:31) Adam was equipped with the power of speech and with a highly developed vocabulary. He was able to give meaningful names to the living creatures all around him. He was capable of carrying on a two-way conversation with his God and with his wife. Eden’s fruit trees were all there for man to eat from "to satisfaction." (Ge 2:16)
For all these reasons and many more, Adam was under obligation to love, worship, and strictly obey his Grand Creator. More than that, the Universal Lawgiver spelled out for him the simple law of obedience and fully informed him of the just and reasonable penalty for disobedience, that of death for his disobedience.(Gen 2:17) Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all men.(Ro 5:12; 6:23)
It is apparent that the tree of the knowledge of good and bad symbolized the divine right or prerogative, which man’s Creator retains, to designate to his creatures what is "good" and what is "bad," thereafter properly requiring the practice of that which is declared good and the abstention from that which is pronounced bad in order to remain approved by God as Sovereign Ruler. Both the prohibition and the subsequent pronouncement of the sentence passed upon the disobedient pair emphasize the fact that it was the act of disobedience in eating the prohibited fruit that constituted the original sin.(Ge 3:3.)
The life of the newly created man and woman was simple, not complicated and encumbered with all the complex problems, predicaments, and perplexity that disobedience to God has since brought to the human race. Nonetheless, for all its simplicity, the test succinctly and admirably expresses the universal truth of God’s sovereignty as well as man’s dependence upon God and his duty toward God. And it must be said that, while simple, the account of Eden’s events presents matters on an infinitely higher level than those theories that would place man’s start, not in a garden, but in a cave, representing him as both crudely ignorant and without moral sense. The simplicity of the test in Eden illustrates the principle stated millenniums later by God’s Son, that "the person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much."(Lu 16:10)
Eden’s having this proscribed tree within it, however, was clearly not intended to serve as a thorn in the flesh of the human pair, nor was it so designated in order to raise an issue, or to serve as the subject for debate. If Adam and Eve had acknowledged God’s will in the matter and had respected his instructions, their garden home would have continued unmarred as a place of pleasure and delight. The record shows that the issue and debate over the tree, along with the temptation to violate God’s ordinance, were thrust upon mankind by God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil. (Ge 3:1-6; Re 12:9.) Adam and Eve’s exercise of their will, as free moral agents, in rebellion against God’s rightful sovereignty led to their loss of Paradise and the blessedness of its confines. Of even graver consequence, they lost the opportunity to partake of another of Eden’s trees, this one representing the right to life everlasting. Thus the account says that Jehovah "drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life."(Ge 3:22-24)
Thus Adam and Eve both had free will in this and could have chosen to remain in Jehovah God's favor, continuing to reside in the original Paradise, extending it's boundaries to the ends of the earth, and living forever on it with their offspring. Yet God has not changed his mind concerning the earth, for Isaiah 45:18 says:" For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else."(American Standard Version) Hence, he has purposed that this earth once again be returned to it's original state of Paradise, for Jesus told an evil-doer that "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."(Luke 23:43) In addition, David was inspired to write that "the righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."(Psalms 37:29) The only Paradise that this Jewish evil-doer was aware of was the Paradise in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, free choice is before everyone, as was before Adam and Eve, for those exercising faith in our Creator, Jehovah God, can have the opportunity of life without end on a future Paradise earth.(John 3:16)
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
jaareshiah said:
Adam was created by God and then placed in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 2:7,8) He was furthermore given instructions by God regarding the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", saying: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."(Gen 2:16,17) Then the Genesis account says that God proceeded to form a wife for Adam, putting Adam in a deep sleep and taking a rib from him and God "proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man."(Gen 2:22) Adam, then in turn, told His wife, Eve, of the command to not eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", for when Eve was being seduced by the serpent, she replied: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’"(Gen 3:2,3) Thus, both Adam and Eve were well aware of God's restriction concerning the "tree of knowledge".
From the very beginning Adam was perfect in every respect, for after his final creative act at the end of the sixth creative day, God said that everything was "very good".(Gen 1:31) Adam was equipped with the power of speech and with a highly developed vocabulary. He was able to give meaningful names to the living creatures all around him. He was capable of carrying on a two-way conversation with his God and with his wife. Eden’s fruit trees were all there for man to eat from "to satisfaction." (Ge 2:16)
For all these reasons and many more, Adam was under obligation to love, worship, and strictly obey his Grand Creator. More than that, the Universal Lawgiver spelled out for him the simple law of obedience and fully informed him of the just and reasonable penalty for disobedience, that of death for his disobedience.(Gen 2:17) Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all men.(Ro 5:12; 6:23)
It is apparent that the tree of the knowledge of good and bad symbolized the divine right or prerogative, which man’s Creator retains, to designate to his creatures what is "good" and what is "bad," thereafter properly requiring the practice of that which is declared good and the abstention from that which is pronounced bad in order to remain approved by God as Sovereign Ruler. Both the prohibition and the subsequent pronouncement of the sentence passed upon the disobedient pair emphasize the fact that it was the act of disobedience in eating the prohibited fruit that constituted the original sin.(Ge 3:3.)
The life of the newly created man and woman was simple, not complicated and encumbered with all the complex problems, predicaments, and perplexity that disobedience to God has since brought to the human race. Nonetheless, for all its simplicity, the test succinctly and admirably expresses the universal truth of God’s sovereignty as well as man’s dependence upon God and his duty toward God. And it must be said that, while simple, the account of Eden’s events presents matters on an infinitely higher level than those theories that would place man’s start, not in a garden, but in a cave, representing him as both crudely ignorant and without moral sense. The simplicity of the test in Eden illustrates the principle stated millenniums later by God’s Son, that "the person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much."(Lu 16:10)
Eden’s having this proscribed tree within it, however, was clearly not intended to serve as a thorn in the flesh of the human pair, nor was it so designated in order to raise an issue, or to serve as the subject for debate. If Adam and Eve had acknowledged God’s will in the matter and had respected his instructions, their garden home would have continued unmarred as a place of pleasure and delight. The record shows that the issue and debate over the tree, along with the temptation to violate God’s ordinance, were thrust upon mankind by God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil. (Ge 3:1-6; Re 12:9.) Adam and Eve’s exercise of their will, as free moral agents, in rebellion against God’s rightful sovereignty led to their loss of Paradise and the blessedness of its confines. Of even graver consequence, they lost the opportunity to partake of another of Eden’s trees, this one representing the right to life everlasting. Thus the account says that Jehovah "drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life."(Ge 3:22-24)
Thus Adam and Eve both had free will in this and could have chosen to remain in Jehovah God's favor, continuing to reside in the original Paradise, extending it's boundaries to the ends of the earth, and living forever on it with their offspring. Yet God has not changed his mind concerning the earth, for Isaiah 45:18 says:" For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else."(American Standard Version) Hence, he has purposed that this earth once again be returned to it's original state of Paradise, for Jesus told an evil-doer that "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."(Luke 23:43) In addition, David was inspired to write that "the righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."(Psalms 37:29) The only Paradise that this Jewish evil-doer was aware of was the Paradise in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, free choice is before everyone, as was before Adam and Eve, for those exercising faith in our Creator, Jehovah God, can have the opportunity of life without end on a future Paradise earth.(John 3:16)

Please cite the source of your cut and paste.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The problem, jaareshiah, is that I am very difficulties knowing when the quote starts or ends, and where your comments begins.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sorry, for re-opening an old thread, but it sort of save me the trouble of starting a new topic.

The more I look at the Creation and Adam in the Genesis, I got this feeling that Adam and Eve would have been expulsed from the Garden of Eden, if they had eaten the forbidden fruit or not.

Do you think Adam and Eve and their descendants would have been allow to stay in Eden, if they didn't eat the fruit?

I just don't see how they can possibly stay in Eden, if what was supposed to happen in the Bible - happened. It seem they were fated to leave Paradise. If so, then it would also seem that God had manipulated the events, so that Adam and Eve would fail the test of obedience.

What do you think?
 

egroen

Member
I think in order to advance the story or myth to get to where we now are, they obviously had to leave paradise somehow.

Now, if we are to take this story at face value we would also have to accept the bible's portrayel of an omniscient god, so certainly he would have known how, when and why Adam and Eve were to be kicked out of paradise. As an omnipotent god, as well, he most certainly had to have it set up that way.

I just choose to believe it is a neat story/myth :)

-Erin
 

may

Well-Known Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Buddy I am right there with you. Seems a bit farcical to try and take the story as a literal history rather than a parable. Its a good story to tell kids in an effort to scare them into behaving.

B.
Genesis 3;15 is the first ever prophecy in the bible , and its all happening in this time that we are living in now. from Genesis to revelation the bible is a book of prophecy, what a thrilling book it is , and the prophecies in the bible that are yet to be fullfilled will effect each and every one of us.
 
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