Why are Atheists on Religiousforums?

Revoltingest · Mar 10, 2015

YmirGF said:
What is painful is that I remember getting excited when I heard that come on TV as a wee child.

Why be ashamed of.....uh....oh, yeah....an operatic flea infested, cheese eat'n, teeny drag queen superhero.
Never mind.

YmirGF · Mar 10, 2015

Revoltingest said:
Why be ashamed of.....uh....oh, yeah....an operatic flea infested, cheese eat'n, teeny drag queen superhero.
Never mind.

*sniffle* *pout*

Politesse · Mar 10, 2015

Cephus said:
I've yet to meet a single atheist who thought they knew it all. In fact, atheists by and large are only too happy to continually re-evaluate their positions in light of new evidence, unlike theists, who often think they already know it all because they believe their imaginary friend in the sky told them so.

Interestingly enough, I know conceited people and humble people in every religious and non-religious tradition. I reject your hypothesis that religious affiliation is a good predictor of temperament, on the basis of a complete lack of evidence, and the unlikelihood, given what we do know about the brain, that the changing of a single cosmological belief could meaningfully change it's habituated tendencies once someone has reached adulthood.

Cephus · Mar 10, 2015

Politesse said:
Interestingly enough, I know conceited people and humble people in every religious and non-religious tradition. I reject your hypothesis that religious affiliation is a good predictor of temperament, on the basis of a complete lack of evidence, and the unlikelihood, given what we do know about the brain, that the changing of a single cosmological belief could meaningfully change it's habituated tendencies once someone has reached adulthood.

That doesn't change the fact that you get people exactly as I described right here in these forums, people who demand that they know what's going on because a voice in their head told them so. You're desperately trying to generalize when I've always been very specific.

Politesse · Mar 10, 2015

Cephus said:
That doesn't change the fact that you get people exactly as I described right here in these forums, people who demand that they know what's going on because a voice in their head told them so. You're desperately trying to generalize when I've always been very specific.

Wait, I'm trying to generalize? You're the one positing a massive difference between "believers" and "atheists" that I think there is no evidence for. And no, a vague anecdote about some guys you met on the internet is not sufficient evidence to validate such a sweeping claim.

Cephus · Mar 10, 2015

Politesse said:
Wait, I'm trying to generalize? You're the one positing a massive difference between "believers" and "atheists" that I think there is no evidence for. And no, a vague anecdote about some guys you met on the internet is not sufficient evidence to validate such a sweeping claim.

No, I've said "some" and "often" and "many". That's not generalizing, that's reality. There's nothing sweeping about it. You're the one assuming universality where none exists.

Politesse · Mar 10, 2015

Cephus said:
No, I've said "some" and "often" and "many". That's not generalizing, that's reality. There's nothing sweeping about it. You're the one assuming universality where none exists.

The universal I've stated is that I don't think temperament and religious identity correlate meaningfully. I'm willing to stand by that one, and I already told you why.

Cephus · Mar 10, 2015

Politesse said:
The universal I've stated is that I don't think temperament and religious identity correlate meaningfully. I'm willing to stand by that one, and I already told you why.

I don't know that you're going to get any kind of universality out of it at all because you're trying to compare disparate groups and find commonality. If you look at fundamentalists, you'll find far more commonality between them than you will comparing fundamentalists to liberal theists for instance. There are things that all theists do share, such as the inherent irrationality of their beliefs though.

Politesse · Mar 10, 2015

Cephus said:
I don't know that you're going to get any kind of universality out of it at all because you're trying to compare disparate groups and find commonality. If you look at fundamentalists, you'll find far more commonality between them than you will comparing fundamentalists to liberal theists for instance. There are things that all theists do share, such as the inherent irrationality of their beliefs though.

So why all of this nonsense you were posting?

thau · Mar 10, 2015

Salvador said:
I'd like to thank all the RF atheists who have destroyed my faith in God.

Not enough to leave it all behind apparently?

Still greater objectives to conquer?

bishblaize · Mar 11, 2015

Servant_of_the_One1 said:
To annoy religionists?
To become religionists?

My interests in other religions are no different from religionists views on other religions.

viole · Mar 11, 2015

Servant_of_the_One1 said:
To annoy religionists?
To become religionists?

Because we love the believer, but hate the belief.

On a more serious note. I do not debate peopke who believe that the earth is flat or people who believe that there are fairies in their garden for the simple reason that they do not affect me, at all. At least until now.

But if someone tells me that I should not do things (abortion, sex before marriage, not driving a car, euthanasia, marrying gays, teach evolution, etc) because of an invisible and imaginary big daddy in the sky, then I feel the right to try to remove the source of this disturbance in the life of people who do not buy it.

If you hold the previous things as wrong because YOU think that they are wrong, then it is fine. But if you use fantasy beings and other absurdities to justify their application, then i will try to cure you from a possibly defective epistemology.

That's all.

Ciao

- viole

leibowde84 · Mar 11, 2015

viole said:
Because we love the believer, but hate the belief.

On a more serious note. I do not debate peopke who believe that the earth is flat or people who believe that there are fairies in their garden for the simple reason that they do not affect me, at all. At least until now.

But if someone tells me that I should not do things (abortion, sex before marriage, not driving a car, euthanasia, marrying gays, teach evolution, etc) because of an invisible and imaginary big daddy in the sky, then I feel the right to try to remove the source of this disturbance in the life of people who do not buy it.

If you hold the previous things as wrong because YOU think that they are wrong, then it is fine. But if you use fantasy beings and other absurdities to justify their application, then i will try to cure you from a possibly defective epistemology.

That's all.

Ciao

- viole

I agree. The will of God should never be the primary reasoning for thinking something to be "wrong." The fight against this is certainly an honorable one.

Cephus · Mar 11, 2015

viole said:
On a more serious note. I do not debate peopke who believe that the earth is flat or people who believe that there are fairies in their garden for the simple reason that they do not affect me, at all. At least until now.

More than that, you rarely run across those people and when you do, they're not trying to enforce their beliefs through force of law or social coercion. But I would still debate them, if I ever came across any and for the same reason that I debate the religious, those beliefs are irrational and unjustifiable.

leibowde84 · Mar 11, 2015

Cephus said:
More than that, you rarely run across those people and when you do, they're not trying to enforce their beliefs through force of law or social coercion. But I would still debate them, if I ever came across any and for the same reason that I debate the religious, those beliefs are irrational and unjustifiable.

But, just because a belief is irrational, does not mean that it is unjustifiable, as there is value in some of these beliefs. For example, my belief gives me the opportunity to sort out my thoughts and feel comfort. It is completely personal and I don't adhere to any organized religion, but it definitely helps me personally. I know because I wouldn't pray unless it helped. I have gone without it before, and I felt like I was missing something. And, I can say with certainty that my beliefs being true is not a prerequisite for them to have value for me.

Moni_Gail · Mar 11, 2015

Because I was here about 8 years ago, but then an email was sent out saying that if I signed back in then $ would be donated to charity.

Cephus · Mar 11, 2015

leibowde84 said:
But, just because a belief is irrational, does not mean that it is unjustifiable, as there is value in some of these beliefs. For example, my belief gives me the opportunity to sort out my thoughts and feel comfort. It is completely personal and I don't adhere to any organized religion, but it definitely helps me personally. I know because I wouldn't pray unless it helped. I have gone without it before, and I felt like I was missing something. And, I can say with certainty that my beliefs being true is not a prerequisite for them to have value for me.

Yes, actually it does. Whether the individual gets something out of it is entirely irrelevant in the larger picture. I'm sure that racists get some personal satisfaction out of their racism and most racists never hurt anyone, but that doesn't mean we ought to defend racism because, even though it is irrational, the individual racist gets some value from their beliefs. Nobody thinks that way. Essentially what you're doing is using religion as a crutch. Your own comfort really means nothing when it's based on nonsense. What you're really saying is no different from "I believe in unicorns because unicorns make me feel good". It's an extremely immature idea. Part of the basic maturation process is coming to grips with the real world as it actually is, not as you wish it was. Reality is reality, no matter how it makes you feel. Pretending otherwise and thinking happy thoughts is just not being a mature adult.

leibowde84 · Mar 11, 2015

Cephus said:
Yes, actually it does. Whether the individual gets something out of it is entirely irrelevant in the larger picture. I'm sure that racists get some personal satisfaction out of their racism and most racists never hurt anyone, but that doesn't mean we ought to defend racism because, even though it is irrational, the individual racist gets some value from their beliefs. Nobody thinks that way. Essentially what you're doing is using religion as a crutch. Your own comfort really means nothing when it's based on nonsense. What you're really saying is no different from "I believe in unicorns because unicorns make me feel good". It's an extremely immature idea. Part of the basic maturation process is coming to grips with the real world as it actually is, not as you wish it was. Reality is reality, no matter how it makes you feel. Pretending otherwise and thinking happy thoughts is just not being a mature adult.

Well, you are free to prove my religious beliefs false, but that is an impossibility. You claim they are "nonsense," but that is not accurate. That would only be the case if they had been shown to be false.

Cephus · Mar 11, 2015

leibowde84 said:
Well, you are free to prove my religious beliefs false, but that is an impossibility. You claim they are "nonsense," but that is not accurate. That would only be the case if they had been shown to be false.

It isn't my job to prove them false, it's your job to prove them true. The burden of proof always falls on the positive claimant. The fastest way to abandon religion is to actually be honest about it and care if your beliefs are factually true.

viole · Mar 11, 2015

leibowde84 said:
Well, you are free to prove my religious beliefs false, but that is an impossibility. You claim they are "nonsense," but that is not accurate. That would only be the case if they had been shown to be false.

Suppose that I hold the position that planets are kept in orbit by invisible angels impervious to empirical evidence (being spiritual).

Do you think that my theory of gravitation makes sense?

Ciao

- viole

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