Loving God = Eternal Torture?

truthofscripture said:

How is it you think you can dishonor Jehovah and honor Him at the same time? It's IMPOSSIBLE.

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You are the one dishonoring Yehovah. Listen to His words:

1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for Yehovah your God proveth you, to know whether ye love Yehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4Ye shall walk after Yehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Deut 13: 1-4

1Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Yehovah God of your fathers giveth you. 2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deut 4: 1-2

32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Deut 12: 32

Now listen to Yeshua…the one you claim as Messiah:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-18

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness (anomia). Matt 7: 21-23

Now listen to your "apostle" Paul:

Paul's View on the Law. Paul says the opposite.

Paul is blunt in Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, 2 Cor. 3:11-17, Romans 7:1-3 et seq, and Galatians 3:19 et seq. The Law is "abolished," "done away with," "nailed to a tree," "has faded away,' and was "only ordained by angels...who are no gods." If we were to cite Paul's condemnations of the Law in one string, the point is self-evident that Paul abrogated the Law for everyone. See Eph. 2:15 ("setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations"); Col. 2:14 ("having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;") 2 Cor. 3:14 ("old covenant"); Gal. 5:1 ("yoke of bondage"); Rom. 10:4 ("Christ is the end of the law"); 2 Cor. 3:7 ("law of death"); Gal. 5:1 ("entangles"); Col. 2:14-17 ("a shadow"); Rom. 3:27 ("law of works"); Rom. 4:15 ("works wrath"); 2 Cor. 3:9(ministration of condemnation); Gal. 2:16 ("cannot justify"); Gal. 3:21 (cannot give life); Col. 2:14 ("wiped out" exaleipsas); Gal. 3:19, 4:8-9 ("given by angels...who are no gods [and are] weak and beggarly celestial beings/elements").

Simplelogic said:

but to fulfil

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Simplelogic said:

till all be fulfilled

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These are the phrases that harmonize Jesus' words with Paul's writings.

To fulfill is defined as to "bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted)" or to "carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected"

In other words, to fulfill is to end with the conditions satisfied.

Kolibri said:

These are the phrases that harmonize Jesus' words with Paul's writings.

To fulfill is defined as to "bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted)" or to "carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected"

In other words, to fulfill is to end with the conditions satisfied.

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Hello my friend.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this point. Fulfill is defined in this text as when "heaven and earth pass away". Last time I checked, both are still firmly intact.

Simplelogic said:

Hello my friend.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this point. Fulfill is defined in this text as when "heaven and earth pass away". Last time I checked, both are still firmly intact.

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I was wondering when we would be "trolling" the same threads again.

Correct me if I am wrong here. Matthew 5:18 is literally "amen/for/I am saying/to you(plural)/until/likely/might pass away/the/heaven/and/the/earth/iota/one/or/one/little horn/not/not/should pass away/from/the/Law/until/likely/all (things)/should take place."

Another way to render this verse then would be "Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter pass away from the Law until all things take place."
This sounds more like how Luke 16:17 reads: "Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled."

I agree, the literal heavens and the literal earth are still here. But this is not a statement that the Law would last as long as they exist. Jesus was using a hyperbole - an exaggeration - to emphasize the certainty of the Law's fulfillment. Jesus was saying It is more likely for the heaven and earth to be destroyed than for the Law Covenant to end with its purposes unfulfilled.

Kolibri said:

I was wondering when we would be "trolling" the same threads again.

Correct me if I am wrong here. Matthew 5:17 is literally "amen/for/I am saying/to you(plural)/until/likely/might pass away/the/heaven/and/the/earth/iota/one/or/one/little horn/not/not/should pass away/from/the/Law/until/likely/all (things)/should take place."
Another way to render this verse then would be "Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter pass away from the Law until all things take place."

This sounds more like how Luke 16:17 reads: "Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled."

I agree, the literal heavens and the literal earth are still here. But this is not a statement that the Law would last as long as they exist. Jesus was using a hyperbole - an exaggeration - to emphasize the certainty of the Law's fulfillment. Jesus was saying It is more likely for the heaven and earth to be destroyed than for the Law Covenant to end with its purpose unfulfilled.

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Even with this interpretation, you are still missing the obvious point to this passage. Namely that the law of Moses would endure and that anyone who teaches against the smallest command will be called least (hey…doesn't Paul's name mean least?) in the kingdom of Heaven. If we go with your interpretation we have to assume that Yeshua said all of this about following the smallest command, but only meant it to be applied for ONE MORE YEAR after he said the words!! Really? If you are suggesting that this was merely hyperbole, then what was the point of it. It is still communicating that the law will not pass away. Why would Yeshua say this if it was about to pass away after his death?

Thankfully we have many more passages where Yeshua makes it crystal clear that obedience is necessary for salvation.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5: 28-29

Wait? Those who have done good???? I thought it was about "believing in Jesus"???

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12: 17

Satan makes war with "those who keep his commandments"?? That rules out all Pauline Christians, but hey, at least you can stay safe that way!

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22: 14

How does "doing his commandments" give someone the "right" to the Tree of Life??? I thought it was covered in the blood?

and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 1 John 3: 22

Wait, we get things from God because we do something?? Blasphemy!

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3

So does that mean if we don't keep the commandments that we don't know him?? Hmmmm.

But whoever continually keeps his commandments is the kind of person in whom God's love has truly been perfected. This is how we can be sure that we are in union with God: 1 John 2: 5

Again, look at this statement reversed: "whoever does not continually keeping his commandments is not perfect in love and can't be sure that he has union with God!!"

I think we jumped topics in your last post.

We went from

Simplelogic said:

Even with this interpretation, you are still missing the obvious point to this passage. Namely that the law of Moses would endure and that anyone who teaches against the smallest command will be called least (hey…doesn't Paul's name mean least?) in the kingdom of Heaven. If we go with your interpretation we have to assume that Yeshua said all of this about following the smallest command, but only meant it to be applied for ONE MORE YEAR after he said the words!! Really? If you are suggesting that this was merely hyperbole, then what was the point of it. It is still communicating that the law will not pass away. Why would Yeshua say this if it was about to pass away after his death?

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to

Salvation based off of faith vs salvation based off of deeds.

Before going to the 2nd argument, I wish to close on this first argument. It was not "not pass away" but "not pass away until".

The Law Covenant, or contract, had specific purposes. One thing to keep in mind was it was never an end to itself but it was a transitional step for qualifying a nation of priests that would help other nations come to know the true God. (Ge 22:18; Ex 19:5,6) To that end, the Law Covenant...

1. It unequivocally exposed and denounced all false religious concepts that man had begun to develop independently since the time of the rebellion in the garden of Eden. (Deuteronomy 18:9-13)
2. It also protected the nation of Israel from the disgusting practices and worship of the surrounding nations by minimizing all contact with those nations. (Deuteronomy 7:1-6)
3. It highlighted the need for atonement, incorporating a well-defined system of sacrifices that were an integral part of Jewish worship. (Leviticus 1:1-17; 3:1-17; 16:1-34; Numbers 15:22-29)
4. It emphasized that God has legal standards that must be met. It also provided the basis for understanding God’s standards of justice.

The mode of payment for infractions of the Law—“life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth”—reflects the guiding principle applied by God himself in solving the question of man’s salvation. (Deuteronomy 19:21) A perfect man, Adam, had been responsible for the condemnation of the human race, so another perfect man was needed to atone for this loss by surrendering his life. Thus his death would perfectly atone for Adam’s sin and its consequences for mankind. Only the coming of the promised “seed,” whose life would be offered as a legal ransom, could fully bring about such a release. (Genesis 3:15)

The Law itself promised a Prophet like Moses (De 18:15,18,19) As Joshua likely wrote the words at De 34:10-12, he did not see himself as the prophet. And like Moses who was used as a mediator of the Law Covenant, Jesus showed himself to be the mediator of the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40. (Luke 22:20). It was by means of this new covenant that nation of Israel had the option to finally become a nation of king-priests - something the Law Covenant prevented by regulating these roles to different tribes. In order for there to be king-priests, the Law Covenant needed to be ended, but as Jesus' said, it could not be ended w/o all its promises fulfilled.

Now to the 2nd argument. Paul's letters emphasized that works are not what saves. But the faith that motivates the works is what saves. This is not out of harmony with James' letter were it states that "faith without works is dead." Paul was trained as a lawyer. He was clarifying what is it specifically that provides a basis for mercy to be shown to us. We can not earn life through works. Only because of our faith is life gifted. However, faith is not a cop-out for not doing what we can. Paul was vigorous in working out his salvation, and so should we be. But never should we think that we earn life by our deeds.

"Likewise, when you have done all the things assigned to you, say: 'We are good-for-nothing slaves. What we have done is what we ought to have done.'" - Luke 17:10

Kolibri said:

I think we jumped topics in your last post.

We went from


to

Salvation based off of faith vs salvation based off of deeds.

Before going to the 2nd argument, I wish to close on this first argument. It was not "not pass away" but "not pass away until".

The Law Covenant, or contract, had specific purposes. One thing to keep in mind was it was never an end to itself but it was a transitional step for qualifying a nation of priests that would help other nations come to know the true God. (Ge 22:18; Ex 19:5,6) To that end, the Law Covenant...

1. It unequivocally exposed and denounced all false religious concepts that man had begun to develop independently since the time of the rebellion in the garden of Eden. (Deuteronomy 18:9-13)
2. It also protected the nation of Israel from the disgusting practices and worship of the surrounding nations by minimizing all contact with those nations. (Deuteronomy 7:1-6)
3. It highlighted the need for atonement, incorporating a well-defined system of sacrifices that were an integral part of Jewish worship. (Leviticus 1:1-17; 3:1-17; 16:1-34; Numbers 15:22-29)
4. It emphasized that God has legal standards that must be met. It also provided the basis for understanding God’s standards of justice.

The mode of payment for infractions of the Law—“life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth”—reflects the guiding principle applied by God himself in solving the question of man’s salvation. (Deuteronomy 19:21) A perfect man, Adam, had been responsible for the condemnation of the human race, so another perfect man was needed to atone for this loss by surrendering his life. Thus his death would perfectly atone for Adam’s sin and its consequences for mankind. Only the coming of the promised “seed,” whose life would be offered as a legal ransom, could fully bring about such a release. (Genesis 3:15)

The Law itself promised a Prophet like Moses (De 18:15,18,19) As Joshua likely wrote the words at De 34:10-12, he himself did not see himself as the prophet. And like Moses who was used as a mediator of the Law Covenant, Jesus showed himself to be the mediator of a "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40. (Luke 22:20). It was by means of this new covenant that nation of Israel had the option to finally become a nation of king-priests - something the Law Covenant prevented by regulating these roles to different tribes. In order for there to be king-priests, the Law Covenant needed to be ended, but as Jesus' said, it could not be ended w/o all its promises fulfilled.

Now to the 2nd argument. Paul's letters emphasized that works are not what saves. But the faith that motivates the works is what saves. This is not out of harmony with James' letter were it states that "faith without works is dead." Paul was trained as a lawyer. He was clarifying what is it specifically that provides a basis for mercy to be show to us. We can not earn life through works. Only because of our faith is life gifted. However, faith is not a cop-out for not doing what we can. Paul was vigorous in working out his salvation, and so should we be. But never should we think that we earn life by our deeds.

"Likewise, when you have done all the things assigned to you, say: 'We are good-for-nothing slaves. What we have done is what we ought to have done.'" - Luke 17:10

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"Before going to the 2nd argument, I wish to close on this first argument. It was not "not pass away" but "not pass away until"."

Until heaven and earth pass away!!

"Jesus showed himself to be the mediator of a "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40."

Lets read Jeremiah to see what this New Covenant is all about.

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The New Covenant is made with the tribe of Israel and Judah. Not gentiles. They enter the covenant but it is not made with them.

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (lit Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

What??? The Law of Moses will be written on our hearts in this New Covenant….interesting. And has this New Covenant happened yet?

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD Jeremiah 31: 31-34

The New Covenant is the same covenant….same laws and statutes. This is exactly why Yeshua taught that none of the law of Moses would diminish until "heaven and earth pass away".

Simplelogic said:

"Before going to the 2nd argument, I wish to close on this first argument. It was not "not pass away" but "not pass away until"."

Until heaven and earth pass away!!

"Jesus showed himself to be the mediator of a "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-40."

Lets read Jeremiah to see what this New Covenant is all about.

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The New Covenant is made with the tribe of Israel and Judah. Not gentiles. They enter the covenant but it is not made with them.

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (lit Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

What??? The Law of Moses will be written on our hearts in this New Covenant….interesting. And has this New Covenant happened yet?

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD Jeremiah 31: 31-34

The New Covenant is the same covenant….same laws and statutes. This is exactly why Yeshua taught that none of the law of Moses would diminish until "heaven and earth pass away".

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we are getting far afield for this thread @Simplelogic

we are debating which part of the verse the until applies to. Right after "until" comes "all these things take place"/"all be fulfilled".

And did not the new covenant start with members of all tribes being able to individually be anointed to share in Jesus' reward? That is those from the 10 tribes, those from the 2 tribes and the Levites?

It was only after Peter used the 3rd key of the kingdom with Cornelius and his family that those "not my people" began to be called "my people". (Hosea 1:10; 2:23; Acts 10:44)
This was in fulfillment of Daniel 9's "seventy weeks". When acceptable animal sacrifice and acceptable gift offering at the temple ceased when the Messiah's sacrifice replaced them, that is when he was "cut off", the gathering of the future king-priests was limited to those that had been under the Law covenant till 36 C.E. (the end of the 70 weeks of years.) (Da 9:26a,27).

As each of these were "born from above", the laws of the new covenant truly were written on their hearts.

There is an assumption made here that the "torah" in Jeremiah 31:32 is from the "Torah" Covenant specifically. And an assumption that "this" of Jeremiah 31:33 is a continuation of the law that was already known by parchment.

Triumphant_Loser said:

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

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Why is it that is the only thing you believe about your Christian upbringing is that someone is tortured forever?

Or is it for you --- "yes, heaven and eternal peace and joy sounds nice for all of us believers, but I am not interested in that God. I would rather take my chances by defying you and going my own selfish route, because I am not keen on that hell teaching" ?

Do you really think your evangelical teachers are on par with the mind of God? Do you really think God is that simply defined where because someone did not believe what the evangelicals insisted was the absolute prerequisite that God's justice and mercy demands they be tortured forever? Even if they died at the age of 13? Even if they were on some Hindu island where no chance for Jesus existed?

I would suggest we do not understand hell at all. I would suggest we cannot assume anything beyond its existence. Maybe oblivion could also be a possibility. But to use that one interpretation and teaching as a reason for telling God to get lost, that makes no good sense to me.

thau said:

Why is it that is the only thing you believe about your Christian upbringing is that someone is tortured forever?

Or is it for you --- "yes, heaven and eternal peace and joy sounds nice for all of us believers, but I am not interested in that God. I would rather take my chances by defying you and going my own selfish route, because I am not keen on that hell teaching" ?

Do you really think your evangelical teachers are on par with the mind of God? Do you really think God is that simply defined where because someone did not believe what the evangelicals insisted was the absolute prerequisite that God's justice and mercy demands they be tortured forever? Even if they died at the age of 13? Even if they were on some Hindu island where no chance for Jesus existed?

I would suggest we do not understand hell at all. I would suggest we cannot assume anything beyond its existence. Maybe oblivion could also be a possibility. But to use that one interpretation and teaching as a reason for telling God to get lost, that makes no good sense to me.

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Thau;
The hell that religions teach does not exist. The concept of an immortal soul is not true either. Hell is the common grave of man, and the soul means the life. They're synonyms. When you die, you're no longer a soul. Nothing survives death, your thoughts perish, you go back to the dust from whence you came. That being said, consider that God Almighty is a God of Love. Being a God of love, He wouldn't torture anyone. He even said as much. It is imperative to stay clear from religions, as they're all said to be false in the scriptures. They're said to be Babylon the Great, and are marked for destruction, along with their participants. It is what Jesus taught that we are told to adhere to. The One True Faith. That's faith in God, His son, and their sacrifice to allow us to be forgiven, and therefore to be saved from destruction. In other words, it's the scriptures, not religion, to which we must cling.

truthofscripture said:

Yep. However, faith without works is dead.

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Yes Christians who who have no works have a dead faith. This means they lose some of their heavenly treasures and their current peaceful fellowship with God, but that does not mean they lose their eternal salvation. That was purchased for all mankind by Christ on the cross.

For salvation a person turns from his own self-righteousness to God (Read the small explanation of the gospel below). This is called repentance. This person then receives the Holy Spirit which teaches, guides and comforts him and ultimately conforms him to the image of Christ. That is a work of God, but a Christian is also able to resist this work of God and remain fleshly/carnal. It's something which is a very bad idea. You will not be saved from the Judgment seat of Christ if you live a carnal life.

But note, Eternal salvation is only effective for those who believe the simple gospel of Christ. Only those who are truly innocent plus/and can not understand the gospel in any way (which literally excludes all those on this forum and might include a 1-year-old child) are home free. But that doesn't really make a difference, because it is simple to be saved: Jesus died on the cross for your sins and if you trust that his blood can wash you clean and that he rose from the grave, you will be saved. This is not something you can deserve. It is from the grace of God.

It is available

truthofscripture said:

Thau;
The hell that religions teach does not exist. The concept of an immortal soul is not true either. Hell is the common grave of man, and the soul means the life. They're synonyms. When you die, you're no longer a soul. Nothing survives death, your thoughts perish, you go back to the dust from whence you came. That being said, consider that God Almighty is a God of Love. Being a God of love, He wouldn't torture anyone. He even said as much. It is imperative to stay clear from religions, as they're all said to be false in the scriptures. They're said to be Babylon the Great, and are marked for destruction, along with their participants. It is what Jesus taught that we are told to adhere to. The One True Faith. That's faith in God, His son, and their sacrifice to allow us to be forgiven, and therefore to be saved from destruction. In other words, it's the scriptures, not religion, to which we must cling.

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Well if it is "the scriptures" for which you put all your faith and trust, then I submit you are being very selective of which scriptures you choose to accept and which you choose to ignore. And that is not a preferred position by any means.

The evidence for the eternal existence of a soul, of a person, is in abundance and far beyond just what scripture says.

truthofscripture said:

The scriptures are extremely clear in saying that we do NOT have an immortal soul, so there isn't anything to send to hell, especially since the word hell means common grave of mankind, the same as Sheol and Hades mean common grave of mankind. Gehenna is symbolism for complete destruction. Hell is the grave.

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Yes we all have an immortal soul. If not, than why does it say that the ones who believe will dwell in the Heavens with God forever and ever? We all have an immortal soul.

I must say it is very interesting to read the various comments on this thread, it is perfectly clear that all have a lust for defending their viewpoint on a subject.
The Bible is a very complex thing, to be better able to understand it we must first have the Holy Spirit with & within us:
With us: Jesus speaking here
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Within us: Apostle John speaking:
Lu 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Ro 4:23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Can we, on our own understand the scriptures?
Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Ac 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Ac 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Theweirdtophat said:

Yes we all have an immortal soul. If not, than why does it say that the ones who believe will dwell in the Heavens with God forever and ever? We all have an immortal soul.

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This is just as easily explained by the resurrection. Remember Jesus liked death to sleep. The dead are woke up from that non-existent state and given a body that is suitable for the environment they will individually be living in.
We also have to keep in mind that the words immortal and soul never meet in the Bible. Soul is always connected to material beings, except when Jehovah speaks animorphically in reference to himself.

URAVIP2ME said:

Do you have 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 in mind? _______ There it equates punishment with: everlasting destruction.
Doesn't Psalm 92:7 mentions the wicked being annihilated as in being destroyed forever ?________

When you say Luke 16 I am thinking you are referring to Jesus' parable or illustration and Not a real happening ?______
Jesus taught ' only sleep in death ' - please see John 11 vs 11-14
By age 12 Jesus was already well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
So, Jesus would have learned that sleeping condition of the dead from those Scriptures such as:
- Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115 :17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13 and Job 14:12 -15.

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No, thanks, I had Luke 16 in mind, where we can see what eternal punishment looks like. The "sleeping dead" is certainly what it looked like to some of the OT writers, while others warned us, like Isaiah, that:

You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.
30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.
31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire
- Is 1

There will be NONE to quench the fire. NONE includes God, who does not lie in the Bible.

BilliardsBall said:

No, thanks, I had Luke 16 in mind, where we can see what eternal punishment looks like. The "sleeping dead" is certainly what it looked like to some of the OT writers, while others warned us, like Isaiah, that:

You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.
30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.
31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire
- Is 1

There will be NONE to quench the fire. NONE includes God, who does not lie in the Bible.

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What links Isaiah 1 29-31 to something post-death?

truthofscripture said:

Well to be sure, there were pagans and opposers of God's Law covenant who were killed, but absolutely nowhere near the estimates you posted as per some scholars. The Abrahamic religions? There were none. The Mosaic Law, or Law Covenant wasn't a religion, it was a set of laws to govern how Israel behaved amongst themselves and among pagans. They involved interpersonal relations, marriage, health, mental health, food and nourishment, and many other things that were for their own good as worshipers of the One True God. The people killed weren't killed off hand and for no reason either. They were admonished and warned repeatedly and failed to behave themselves. Prior to the Law Covenant, Israel was considerably worse and mostly pagan. No governance existed, with the exception of Rome and Egypt's potentates. To be honest, what the scholars call the minor prophets weren't minor at all either. All of the prophets of Jehovah were equally important. Some had larger roles than others, but all were equally valued by Jehovah. I agree that the death of anyone isn't a pleasant thing, but they died mostly at their own choosing and the prophets were merely messengers to Israel from God. Bear in mind that God created all, and is the sovereign of the universe. The ultimate ruler of everyone and everything. Most people don't acknowledge that fact, but are given many chances to see the truth. When the final judgement of the world happens at the Great Day of God the Almighty, it too will happen as a result of constant and repeated warnings from God, so say the scriptures. The current state of the world is in the same position. They have had two thousand years of warnings from God and have chosen to ignore those warnings as can clearly be read about in Revelation. I for one, believe implicitly in what the scriptures tell us as there is ample evidence manifested in my life to prove it to me, as a result of my obedience to Jehovah God. Before I was obedient, no such evidence existed in my personal life, and I didn't recognize any of the other evidence. I made a choice to be one of the ones who isn't destroyed, so I've spent close to 5 decades learning, searching, researching, and being taught. I can, as a result of those five decades of work, sympathize with what you call Christian Baggage. It comes from the religions of man, not from the scriptures.

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I appreciate your views. They do not offer any logical explanation that will satisfy my issues concerning the murderous and wrathful petulance of god. The scriptures were written and redacted over the centuries (many times) in order to form a particular society of cultural/religious norms. They are not static and not the pure word of god, but of human kind. As a grad student in religious philosophy, I had the pleasure to learn the importance of viewing all religious narratives
critically. One of the outcomes concerning this manner of thinking is that I don't put much stock in any of them, in terms of modern day relevancy or even spirituality. I just can't.

I love god, just not the one I've been indoctrinated to be terrified of.

Triumphant_Loser said:

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

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Eternity means "for an age." ... Better translated "for a time until the price is paid." Hell and Fire are mental/physical torment. When one dies, their carnality dies with them. What was sewn to their spirit in pure love and truth sticks.

yokomodoful said:

God does not force people to love him and go to heaven. Hell is a separation from God because the person chooses to be separate. Since God is our creator and to know and love him through his creation is our purpose. It is logical that the absence of God is hell.

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Terror and wrath are a means of force. The promise of death, damnation and the eradication of entire populations, is most definitely a kind terrifying force. Psalms 137:9 "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." What do you call this, gentle cajoling? Friendly advice?