Virgin Mary and Islam?

gsaseeker said:

..Islam is, as you might have guessed, as committed to patriarchy as traditional Judaism.

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You are right that Judaism & Islam are from the same root; Abraham, peace be with him, had Ishmael & Isaac from different mothers .. a famous narrative in the Bible & Qur'an.
Muhammad is from the lineage of Ishmael, and Moses/Jesus from Isaac.
Stop this "family feud"


Some sects of Judaism still bow & prostrate as do Muslims .. bowing & prostration is actually mentioned in the Bible. Not just a concidence!

gsaseeker said:

Islam also denies his crucifixion..

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No it doesn't! Almighty God informs us in the Qur'an that "They did not kill him" .. that does not mean that Jesus was not 'put on the cross' ..

muhammad_isa said:

No it doesn't! Almighty God informs us in the Qur'an that "They did not kill him" .. that does not mean that Jesus was not 'put on the cross' ..

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please, what does " salib " means if not cross and what does " maa salabuho " means if not " didn't crucify him " ?
sometimes saying " I don't know " or just don't answering doesn't hurt anybody.

نساء 157 و 158: « ... وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا ـ بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا».

muhammad_isa said:

No it doesn't! Almighty God informs us in the Qur'an that "They did not kill him" .. that does not mean that Jesus was not 'put on the cross' ..

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I think the quran is explicit that Jesus wasn't crucified.

Can his body being crucified but not him ?
Yes that could be, as the flesh without the soul is an inanimate, but as what they saw and think of him as Jesus was a life, so who was that person who incarnated Jesus' body, i believe the one hadith which says he was Judas Iscariot.

FearGod said:

I think the quran is explicit that Jesus wasn't crucified.

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Well, what do you mean by that? What does 'not crucified mean?
To me, it means that he wasn't killed. Crucifixion is a method of killing somebody. If you say somebody wasn't hanged, for example, it surely means that his neck was not broken!

FearGod said:

i believe the one hadith which says he was Judas Iscariot.

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Yes .. you are saying that Judas was put in his place. That might be correct, but nobody knows for sure. One thing we do know for certain is that HE DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS..
..as I say, that doesn't necessrily mean that he wasn't on it. We also have reports that Jesus, peace be with him, appeared with his hands and feet bandaged at a later time .. if this were true, then why would that have been?

If this hadith you mention is authentic, can you please advise me on the volume/chapter..
WaSalam

This is all very confusing......
.i think its just a mix up , but that's me

muhammad_isa said:

Well, what do you mean by that? What does 'not crucified mean?
To me, it means that he wasn't killed. Crucifixion is a method of killing somebody. If you say somebody wasn't hanged, for example, it surely means that his neck was not broken!

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Yes Jesus wasn't killed on the cross but Judas, Judas soul incarnating Jesus body.
Jesus soul was raised and then Judas have Jesus' body.

muhammad_isa said:

Yes .. you are saying that Judas was put in his place. That might be correct, but nobody knows for sure. One thing we do know for certain is that HE DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS..
..as I say, that doesn't necessrily mean that he wasn't on it. We also have reports that Jesus, peace be with him, appeared with his hands and feet bandaged at a later time .. if this were true, then why would that have been?

If this hadith you mention is authentic, can you please advise me on the volume/chapter..
WaSalam

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The appearance of Jesus with his hands and feet bandaged makes sense that his body was incarnated by Judas.
IOW Jesus' body but Judas' soul

When Judas died on the cross his soul raised and Jesus incarnated his own body once again.

The Crucifixion of Judas

FearGod said:

Jesus soul was raised and then Judas have Jesus' body.

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I don't accept what you are saying .. you have not shown me the hadith.

Al-Islam is founded on The Qur'an and authentic ahadith .. if anybody tells me "what Islam says", then they need to qualify it

muhammad_isa said:

I don't accept what you are saying .. you have not shown me the hadith.

Al-Islam is founded on The Qur'an and authentic ahadith .. if anybody tells me "what Islam says", then they need to qualify it

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Not everything is explained by the hadith, we have to think, investigate and search for the right answer.

For example the universe being as one piece has no explanation in any hadith whereas today we have the right answer since we realize that the universe is steadily expanding and started from a point and similar thing to the universe was in smoke condition, should we only look for the hadith to explain anything in the quran ?
I don't think so.

FearGod said:

Not everything is explained by the hadith, we have to think, investigate and search for the right answer.

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That's true, but we need to be careful to differentiate between what is a possibilty and what Almighty God has told us as fact.

We know that Jesus, son of Mary, did not die on the cross .. did not die at the hands of his enemy

..you are free to conjecture, as am I, but Allah knows best what actually happened

I do not rely on hadith alone, but it surely helps to form an opinion

muhammad_isa said:

That's true, but we need to be careful to differentiate between what is a possibilty and what Almighty God has told us as fact.

We know that Jesus, son of Mary, did not die on the cross .. did not die at the hands of his enemy

..you are free to conjecture, as am I, but Allah knows best what actually happened

I do not rely on hadith alone, but it surely helps to form an opinion

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Yes for sure prophet Jesus didn't die at the hands of his enemy and for sure God knows best what actually happened.
I do agree.

I definitely have some issues with the Islam teachings about Jesus. (mainly as it relates to his 'second coming')

The central thought is that he was raised bodily into heaven, and wasn't crucified at all. I happen to think he was crucified, but not for the reasons suggested in the NT. I agree with the Qur'an that he wasn't divine. But, this is my opinion.

Deidre said:

I realize that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is honored in Islam, even more so than in the NT. My question is why is it necessary to believe that she was a virgin, if she nor Jesus is taught in Islam, to be "divine?"

In Christianity, it becomes a different focus than in Islam because Jesus is taught to be divine.

Just curious as to why it is believed in Islam that Jesus was the born from a virgin?

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In islam the miracle birth of Allah's servant Isa(Jesus) pbuh is to show people that Allah is able to create whatever He wants. Allah created Adam without parents, He creates us with parents and Isa(Jesus)pbuh without father.

It is to demonstrate the power of Allah swt.
We believe in the miracle birth as it is mentioned in Quran and Sunnah.
However we dont say Maryam(Mary) aleyha salaam continued her life as single woman/as virgin woman.
There is no mention of that in Quran and Sunnah.

Deidre said:

I realize that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is honored in Islam, even more so than in the NT. My question is why is it necessary to believe that she was a virgin, if she nor Jesus is taught in Islam, to be "divine?"

In Christianity, it becomes a different focus than in Islam because Jesus is taught to be divine.

Just curious as to why it is believed in Islam that Jesus was the born from a virgin?

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In islam the miracle birth of Allah's servant Isa(Jesus) pbuh is to show people that Allah is able to create whatever He wants. Allah created Adam without parents, He creates us with parents and Isa(Jesus)pbuh without father.

It is to demonstrate the power of Allah swt.
We believe in the miracle birth as it is mentioned in Quran and Sunnah.
However we dont say Maryam(Mary) aleyha salaam continued her life as single woman/as virgin woman.

The reason for the Virgin Birth is giving in Surah Maryam:

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.

18. She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."

19. (The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."

20. She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"

21. He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah).' "

Reasons for Virgin birth is thus:
1) Allah can create whatever He wills. Creating human being without father is truly miracle, but what about human(Adam) without parents? That is greater miracle.
2) To make Isa aleyhi salaam a sign to mankind. His virgin birth is a test to mankind. Some people worship him for that, believing he is begotten son of Allah. Others testify to the greatness of Allah.

YmirGF said:

What I find hilarious is the belief in Immaculate Conception but the odd assertion that the son is not the son of the father. In a very real sense Islam sees Jesus as being a *******.

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Please dont speak for islam.
Thats not cool


The birth of Isa pbuh is a test to show the Power of Allah swt.

Adam was created without parents.
Isa pbuh was created without father.
And we are created with parents.

muhammad_isa said:

Well, what do you mean by that? What does 'not crucified mean?
To me, it means that he wasn't killed. Crucifixion is a method of killing somebody. If you say somebody wasn't hanged, for example, it surely means that his neck was not broken!



Yes .. you are saying that Judas was put in his place. That might be correct, but nobody knows for sure. One thing we do know for certain is that HE DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS..
..as I say, that doesn't necessrily mean that he wasn't on it. We also have reports that Jesus, peace be with him, appeared with his hands and feet bandaged at a later time .. if this were true, then why would that have been?

If this hadith you mention is authentic, can you please advise me on the volume/chapter..
WaSalam

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My brother in islam,
The most important source is Quran, the words of Allah swt.
Therein it says Prophet Isa aleyhi salaam was not crucified and not killed. So it means he was not put on the cross(some ppl could survive that) and neither was he killed.
Thats what Allah says in his mighty book.
Then we have hadiths where Prophet Muhammad pbuh said isa pbuh was not crucified, but other person was in his place crucified. Allah swt put the resemblance of Jesus pbuh on that person. So it was that person who was crucified and killed, not Isa aleyhi salaam.


May Allah guide us all amin.

The Tafsir of Ayat: but they killed him not, nor crucified him.

(but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared as that to them,) referring to the person whom the Jews thought was `Isa. This is why Allah said afterwards,

﴿وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ﴾

(and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture.) referring to the Jews who claimed to kill `Isa and the ignorant Christians who believed them. Indeed they are all in confusion, misguidance and bewilderment. This is why Allah said,

﴿وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِيناً﴾

(For surely; they killed him not.) meaning they are not sure that `Isa was the one whom they killed. Rather, they are in doubt and confusion over this matter.

﴿بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزاً﴾

(But Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful,) meaning, He is the Almighty, and He is never weak, nor will those who seek refuge in Him ever be subjected to disgrace,


Just like it is easy for Allah swt to create his servant Isa pbuh without a father, so too it is easy for Allah swt to save him from the hands of the romans, and to place the resemblance/look of Isa aleyhi salaam on someone else.

Deidre said:

I definitely have some issues with the Islam teachings about Jesus. (mainly as it relates to his 'second coming')

The central thought is that he was raised bodily into heaven, and wasn't crucified at all. I happen to think he was crucified, but not for the reasons suggested in the NT. I agree with the Qur'an that he wasn't divine. But, this is my opinion.

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The scholarly consensus on this is thin, but basically, assuming that there was a historical figure that is the basis of Jesus/Isa, there's broad agreement that figure was executed under the direction of the Romans, probably for insurrection activity related to the temple. Some people say nonviolent disobedience, others say that it was a violent attempt to take it over. But most of them agree that he was executed and died, without resurrection or bodily assumption into heaven or anything like that.

Servant_of_the_One said:

..it means he was not put on the cross(some ppl could survive that) and neither was he killed.
Thats what Allah says in his mighty book.
Then we have hadiths where Prophet Muhammad pbuh said isa pbuh was not crucified, but other person was in his place crucified.

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I'm not convinced .. nobody has shown me the origin of this hadith as yet..
Yes .. he was not crucified. He was not killed in this way. Let's leave it at that, shall we. If you wish to debate this topic further, perhaps you would like to start another thread..

Maybe an interesting text to this topic is the apocalypse of Peter that was dated to be written about 200 AD. The Church has condemned this text and tried to distroy it (as they tried with many other early Christian texts in order to establish their own doctrine and interpretation of Jesus), but it was discovered again during archeologic research in Egypt in 1886. In this apocalypse Peter sees Jesus in a vision and talks with him.

The apocalypse of Peter states:
When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?" The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me." But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place." But he said to me, "I have told you, 'Leave the blind alone!'. And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."

This at least shows that in the early years after the crucifixion there already has been doubts about if they really crucified Jesus and it basically confirms what is said in the Quran that they did not crucify Jesus nor killed him but it was resembled to them. It has merely been the Church that banned these kind of thoughts in order to establish its own power rather than to lead people on the right way of God. The Quran just reveals those things, people already knew before but their scholars tried to hide from them, just as the the Quran says.

in Surat Ali Imran (3:71) it says:
O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

I think this is a good example of something that has been concealed and truth that has been confused by the church.

Deidre said:

I realize that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is honored in Islam, even more so than in the NT. My question is why is it necessary to believe that she was a virgin,

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The virginity “trait” of the mothers of the gods is of pagan provenience.

The fact, however, is that “Virgin” is a title, not a biological condition. Little girls in antiquity in order to remain guaranteed virgins, up to marriage time, had to live imprisoned in dark places from a few weeks up to seven years.

They were thus acquiring the title of “Virgin” which they deserved to keep for life. They were called “Virgin” even after giving birth.

Theology never managed to get rid of popular beliefs so it had to retain certain topics by altering them as much as possible. In other words, it is futile to try to understand Christian and Muslim theologians since they were forced to mimic mythology. If they had a free hand they would not have to present Jesus being born into a cave (where the old gods were born according to mythology) and they would have said that he was born out of nothing in the space, by the word of his father.

dtango said:

The virginity “trait” of the mothers of the gods is of pagan provenience.

The fact, however, is that “Virgin” is a title, not a biological condition. Little girls in antiquity in order to remain guaranteed virgins, up to marriage time, had to live imprisoned in dark places from a few weeks up to seven years.

They were thus acquiring the title of “Virgin” which they deserved to keep for life. They were called “Virgin” even after giving birth.

Theology never managed to get rid of popular beliefs so it had to retain certain topics by altering them as much as possible. In other words, it is futile to try to understand Christian and Muslim theologians since they were forced to mimic mythology. If they had a free hand they would not have to present Jesus being born into a cave (where the old gods were born according to mythology) and they would have said that he was born out of nothing in the space, by the word of his father.

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Well, one would have to believe first that Jesus was on the same plain as a god. He even said he wasn't. Second, God has a 'mother?' Gods have human mothers?
Interestingly, this notion is nothing new in the Abrahamic faiths, 'gods' impregnating mortals.

I don't believe that Mary was 'the mother of god,' because it honestly makes no sense.

Deidre said:

Well, one would have to believe first that Jesus was on the same plain as a god. He even said he wasn't. Second, God has a 'mother?' Gods have human mothers?
Interestingly, this notion is nothing new in the Abrahamic faiths, 'gods' impregnating mortals.

I don't believe that Mary was 'the mother of god,' because it honestly makes no sense.

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Maybe you should say this is nothing new to Roman faith. "gods" impregnating women has nothing to do with Abrahamic religions. The only thing in Abrahamic religions that returns often is that it is only God who decides when a woman gets pregnant, therefore all children are gifts from God. This has nothing to do with God "impregnating" a woman and getting a own child. Unfortunately Christian faith was hijacked by the Romans, and they gave their own heathen interpretation to everything, like a god (or spirit) going to a woman and having her pregnant. "Gods" getting children, "gods" (or halfgods) being born from women, having multiple entities reigning the godly world together (the father, the son and the holy spirit). These were all addings to Christianity from the Roman and those who followed Roman/Greek believe. This has nothing to do with what Jesus (or any prophet of God) has said, so please don't put these things on Abraham by calling it a common thing for Abrahamic faiths. Abraham was one of the few in his time who believed in the One God and Allmighty God and gave up his life to go to the land of Palestine, only because God told him so. He trusted 100% on our God and would never invent such lies about our God.

The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign for the Jews that the end had come, that God would make an end to this world. Jesus was the last Jewish messenger of God. After the temple was destroyed and the Jews spread over the whole world. There is nothing left of the Jewish people what it once was. Now it's waiting for the messiah to come and reestablish the Throne of David and the Kingdom of God on this earth.