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The Misunderstanding of Christianity in the Quran

Jerrell

Active Member
For so long Catholcism has been catholocism they have not chnaged much and wont buged. I think it's bad that most catholics dont get to read the Bible, you know if u actually read it it'll contradict Catholocism, of course many dont know it cause they dont read...they just listen to what the Priest tells them.

This Thread is abour The Koran, I dont want to take it off in a Direction the Thread Starter doesn't want it in.
 

Jerrell

Active Member
Just becuase men consider certain things their doctrine doesn't mean it is right. If Catholics claim to be Christian let them draw doctrine from the BIble and not men, as the bible condemns. ....

FerventGodSeeker, I explained what the Ark(and Cerebreum) was, read it and you will understand.
 

Jerrell

Active Member
Jerrell said:
First, u said you dont worship them as u worship God, but still if u worship it in any way you are sinning and contradicting the Bilbe. Second. God is not talking to the Christians but he is talking to the Jews.

The Cerebrums were built onto the Ark of the Convenant, this was not a object of wroship, nor a object of a creature, the cerrebrums were part of the ark, not the whole thing.

The BIble is clear to not make any Graven images of anything in heaven, for any type of part in Worship.

Above is what i said......Know that the Cerebriums were built onto the Ark, It was not a Statue to be "worshipped" in any way They were to protect this Ark, in some way. They were not to be brought into the Temple of God. Just Becuase the JEWs made Gold Representations of these types of angels doesn't mean u can make statues of Mary and pray to her(in the Church). The BIble clearly commands us not to bow down to Statues

Le 26:1 - Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

If you actually read the BIble and Understand you will see Tradition of Men many times contradicts the bible, and alot of Catholocism is in contradition to the Bible.

Now Dont get me wrong I love Catholics Many are my Christian Brothers, we Christians need to be united and as long as we dont understand the Holy Scriptures we cant come together, that is my mission, to get the truth out.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Jerrell said:
Above is what i said......Know that the Cerebriums were built onto the Ark, It was not a Statue to be "worshipped" in any way They were to protect this Ark, in some way. They were not to be brought into the Temple of God. Just Becuase the JEWs made Gold Representations of these types of angels doesn't mean u can make statues of Mary and pray to her(in the Church). The BIble clearly commands us not to bow down to Statues

Le 26:1 - Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

If you actually read the BIble and Understand you will see Tradition of Men many times contradicts the bible, and alot of Catholocism is in contradition to the Bible.

Now Dont get me wrong I love Catholics Many are my Christian Brothers, we Christians need to be united and as long as we dont understand the Holy Scriptures we cant come together, that is my mission, to get the truth out.

How many time are you going to repeat scriptures with no explanation or anything of your own to say?
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Jerrell said:
Just becuase men consider certain things their doctrine doesn't mean it is right. If Catholics claim to be Christian let them draw doctrine from the BIble and not men, as the bible condemns. ....

Just because someone posts something about Catholicism doesn't mean it is right.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Jerrell said:
Scripture Speaks for itself. Why should I Repeat that which is already Written?

The are many different interpretations of scripture, how can you claim to have the one and only correct version of scripture?
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
You might find that what we think the Christians do to both Mary and Jesus (and I was a christian for 23 years) is something we refer to as shirk, which I guess I could best translate as 'association' (tho' also attribution) you would no doubt probably translate it as meaning 'associated in worship' but that is not its only meaning. This is a debated topic in islam also, with the general sunni line being that one should not 'venerate' anyone (i.e. saints) or anything (i.e. objects). I even accused my wife recently of a minor shirk over the creation story and perception of time, and that indirectly that by believeing that when Allah says be and it is, that would manifest immediately within the creation. What appears to Allah as one moment, could appear to us as 5 million years, to attribute our perception of time to Allah is also a minor form of shirk in that it attributes to Allah that we he has not attributed to himself. The Christians, even the one's who think the Trinity is a metaphor, commit shirk and there is no doubt about that, whether through Jesus...or the saints and the idea that they can/do act as intercessors.
 

maty

Member
Assalamo Alaikum wa Rahmatullah
Opinion Regarding your discussion discussion


As an English Muslim convert, now living in Saudi Arabia, I find the sharp contrast between societies, thought-provoking from many new points.
Focusing upon the nature of Jesus and Mary as explained in the Koran and in the Gospel of the New Testament, we see two opposing views - that of Christian teaching that Jesus is 'Son of God' and that of the Koran neglecting all such claims. It then, becomes necessary to ask the question WHY was it necessary for the early Christians to make such a claim about Jesus, when after all he never made such a claim?
It is my opinion that answer becomes clear if we study the basis for the religions of Islam and Christianity. As Muslims we base our faith upon God and upon Him alone, and upon the Koran - God's word to His Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in whom we also believe - as a true Prophet of the One God. Muhammad (pbuh) is God's servant, faithful and obedient and totally human - he remains the instrument of God's purpose to lead His people back to Him again.
Now, as a total contrast we turn to Christianity - a religion built not around God, or His book - for there was no 'book' until 150 years after Jesus' death. Christianity became built around the personality of Jesus himself. By laying more and more stress upon the magnetic and wonderful personality of Jesus and unable and unwilling to describe the Prophet's effect upon all who came to him in everyday terms - more and more attributes are added to his reputation - a man who could perform miracles, bring back the dead to life, heal the leper, cure the blind - all by God's will, is indeed a wonderful man - blessed by God - born by God's will to do His service. But after his death, the 'magical' personality must be kept alive and 'Son of God' appears to suitably qualify all his actions.
Living in a society, strongly flavoured by the Greco-Roman gods, all 'super human', the educated early Christians must surely also have been influenced in thought by their surroundings. Paul himself, one of the great scholars of Christianity was a Hellenized Jew, who never saw or met Jesus during his lifetime. Yet many of his reported sayings show the influence of the times in which he lived. 'The living Lord' was very real to him.
The miraculous nature of Jesus' birth, also could help to give credence to the idea of Jesus identity as son of God. But it is childlike in its 1+1=2 type philosophy, i.e. God blew into the womb of Mary - Mary had Jesus, therefore God is Jesus' father and Jesus is His son.
What Christians fail to see, and to understand is that in Jesus' birth and conception we see a touching and wonderful revelation of the kindness of God.
We are told by both the Koran and Christian writings that Mary was a young woman of exceptional purity of both mind and body, brought into the world already pledged as God's servant, blessed be God, while in His service in the synagogue she herself could produce small 'miraculous' occurrences by God's will. How natural then, that God, having chosen her to be the vehicle by which His new prophet should be born on earth - chosen by a means by which none of her blessed purity is touched. She serves her God, but in doing so He is in His infinite kindness preserves her purity. Surely this needs no embellishment - no claims to 'sonship' of God. God's creation yes, but not Son by Paternity. That is obviously not the intention.
The fact that so much time elapsed before any of the sayings of Jesus or his teachings were written, also allows for the 'Oral tradition', by which they were passed on, to have substantially changed the original. And yet through the three synoptic gospels (John being written last and obviously full of religious dogma), Matthew, Luke and Mark despite any alteration - a picture of Jesus as a quiet, yet magnetic personality - a Prophet inspired by God, with a great love of all humanity, sent to sharpen out awareness of God, in all the aspects of life; Jesus tries to open our eyes and our hearts to a greater awareness of God - an unselfish appraisal of ourselves from our thoughts, to our actions, and to enlarge faith and trust in God. Only by so doing by the simple faith and trust of a child is God's kingdom to come on earth - this idea is repeated many times in many of his reported sayings. His closeness to God was evident from the strength that he drew from prayers, and the power he was given by God, to perform miracles. Yet in all his power and in the performance of God's wonders NEVER does he proclaim himself Son of God. In Jesus sense of the word 'Son' we are all taught children of God, His sons and daughters, here on earth, and as such Jesus taught the people to pray to 'Our father, which art in heaven.'
Of the actual volume of words he spoke or must have spoken in his teachings only a pitiable few, and not all reliable, have been recorded. Jesus seemed to be primarily concerned with the poor, the oppressed, the outcast, the sick - and not tolerant of the sanctimonious and meaningless religions 'cant ' of the so-called 'pious'. His call to the hearts of men, and his theme was humanity and love. Did he mean to establish a church? I believe he did - but not in the sense we see the church today - Jesus was practical as well as spiritual. I believe he wanted to create a society of people whose faith in God bound them to one another regardless of race or creed, in a family-type caring relationship under God's guidance. It is not really evident from his teachings that he saw himself as a great shining light in this process. He tended more to regard himself as a tool in the hands of God.
By raising him up to unbelievable heights, the early Christian followers brought upon themselves the endless problems of theoretically explaining the crucifixion - and from this comes the doctrine of Sacrifice for the sins of man, and the consequential exclusiveness of Jesus - which is very important to the early Christians. A pagan could be equally faithful to many 'gods' - but in Christianity this could not be -ONLY by faith in Jesus can Christina hope to gain salvation - ONLY by accepting his death for the sake of man's sins - and ONLY be belief in his resurrection (for as a son of God, God must lift him up again) can the Christian hope to enter paradise. Any other path is death - although this places Jesus absolutely between God and all His people - a position he never occupied in his life on earth.
Doctrine on doctrine becomes intertwined, and we find in the history of the church, endless meetings, theories and arguments as to the Nature of Jesus - he has become now, in fact, less tangible reality, and more an unearthly semi spiritual being, wrapped in endless doctrine and dogma - far indeed from the simple gentle personality, in whom God placed so much power, in order that he could bring awareness to His people. Has not the church then defeated Jesus' own objective - simplicity?
We find in the 'trinity' - Father - Son - and Holy Ghost, perhaps the culmination of the efforts of people struggling for supremacy in religious expression and achieving an enigma, few Christians can adequately explain today.
God's spirit is as real in the days of Moses and Abraham as it is in the time of Prophet Muhammad. It does not need to be held in the confines of a 'man made' triangle. Nor did Jesus associate himself with any theory of this kind.
It is sad, that in the coming of Islam, Christians felt they saw the coming of the 'fake prophet' or Anti Christ told of in the Book of revelation to John (New Testament). It is even sadder that the noble who organised the 2nd Crusade against the Muslims was offered a copy of a translated Koran to read - and cast it aside. It is sad because it reflects an attitude to Islam seen even until today - kept alive in the history of the Crusades, and founded on a total ignorance. It is for Muslims, now to assert their faith and for Christians to at least be willing to be made aware of the meaning of Islam. I am sure that to many Islam and its teachings will be as a mountain stream in the desert, to the parched souls of many searching for the truth.
 

Jerrell

Active Member
This is to-Assalamo Alaikum wa Rahmatullah
Opinion Regarding your discussion discussion


1. Mohaamud did not have the Holy Spirit nor waas he guided by it, The Holy Spirit is ONLY given to those who follow Jesus, it is only promised to them.

2. The Trinity is not man-made, it is a Biblical understanding. Jesus is Emmanuel, meaning God with us. We are told In Isaiah that A SOn shall be given unto us and his name shall be Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace and Mighty God. If he is not God why is he called God both before and After he comes to earth?

3. God Apperaed the Abraham in the Fields of Mamre, and he saw Three men...this should explain the trinity of God.
Genesis 18:1-31 And the LORD appeared unto him(Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord...
4. God most times is called by a Complex name, that is Elohim, this is a Plural name and is God most comomnly used "name" or title. Elohim literally means gods, it is a word that can be translated as God, gods, or Judges(the HIgh Preists and Religious Leaders),

5. MOhamuud is not indentified by John in the book of Revelation, this Antichrist, who is called The Beast(there are 2 of them) Is either a Political Leader, or the Pope(some beleive). It is not Mohaamud, however he is still a flase Prophet.

6. Dont try to cover up history and put all the cursades on Christians. The Muslims did the crusades first. They killed millions of people to spread their religion, Islam spread becuase they forced people to convert, Christianity however spread another way, by free will, by faith, by love. Dont try to paint a bad picture of the Faith of Christ.

7. You said Jesus never made the claim that he was the son of God....DId you know Islam was founded iin 610 A.D. and that the Gospels existed less than 40 years after the death of Jesus? Now The Gospels of the BIble existed before 200 AD, and 400 years later here come ssomeone who wants to really tell us what Jeuss said. The Gospels were written by Eye witnesses, John Walked with Jesus, talked with him, and he wrote it all down. Mohaamud was a FLase Prophet and that is why he makes such a claim...how can his religion exist if he accpets Jesus for who he is? It can't....He denies Jesus his TItle....It is SImple Isiah told us " A Son will be given..." Notice the word Son.

8. We do not base Jesus being the Son of God on his Birth, we know That God was Jeuss' Father COncerning Mary, but his title is something diffrent. Jesus was the son of God before he was born to mary.
Da 3:25 - He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. The Bible was written by those who knew Jesus, MOhaamud nor his Students knew Jesus therefore they have no basis to decide what Jesus said.

9. Yes, the BIble was formed 15o years after Jesus' death. But the books such as the Letters of Paul existed in 60 A.D. just 30 years after Jeuss' Death. The Gospel of JOhn even existed early in History. Keep in mind the BIble was not written at the Council Constantine called together, it had already existed. And please keep in mind you bring up the date our BIble was formed realise your Holy Book was written more than 400 years later, what makes them know more about what Jesus said than those who walked with him?
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Jerrell said:
8. We do not base Jesus being the Son of God on his Birth, we know That God was Jeuss' Father COncerning Mary, but his title is something diffrent. Jesus was the son of God before he was born to mary.
Da 3:25 - He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. The Bible was written by those who knew Jesus, MOhaamud nor his Students knew Jesus therefore they have no basis to decide what Jesus said.

I love 'The Song of the Three Holy Children', I wrote a poem some years ago (which I no longer have a copy of) called 'The Three Brothers' which I think had this as part of its source, and was a 'dialectic' poem. Really very beautiful source.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
There are ascending souls and descending souls. The human soul is an ascending soul that like a child learns and grows. It chooses it's own course as it evolves into an adult sentient being that one day shall join with God.

The descending souls have come from God as evolved souls to be leaders that guide the evolution of the universe and ensure that it follows God's original intent, life experiences from free will creatures.

Jesus is a descending soul, a Son of God who bestowed Himself on the earth to get His needed life experience.

All sentient life gets it's sentience from God, we are all Son's of God, we just have to open our eyes to it.
 
I think there has been a great deal of misunderstanding in this thread:

In Islam, invoking blessings from anyone other than Allah is shirk (associating partners with him). Vowing in the name of anything other than Allah is shirk. And calling upon anyone other than Allah is shirk of worship.

The Prophet Muhammad said: 'Dua is Worship'. Dua literally means supplication.

eg. If I were to call upon a dead saint, that is shirk, and I have taken him as a God besides Allah because Allah is the only who answers the prayers...

All forms of intercession is forbidden in Islam as associating partners with Allah:

" And warn by it, those who fear to be gathered to their Lord: Besides Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: That they may become pious, God-fearing" (Qur'an 6:51)

" Say to Allah belongs all intercession. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and to Him you shall all return" (Qur'an 39:44)

“Say (O Muhammad): ‘Shall we invoke others besides Allaah as false deities, that can do us neither good nor harm, and shall we turn back on our heels after Allaah has guided us (to true Monotheism)?’” [al-An’aam 6:71]

Now I dont have to outline to the Christians around here the role of Mary in their religion as intercessor. In Islam, that constitutes worship to a false god because only Allah is to be called upon. There are details and technicalities to the rule but none of them would be relevant to you at this stage in light of the topic at hand.

Peace be upon those who seek the truth
 

ΩRôghênΩ

Disciple of Light
I think there has been a great deal of misunderstanding in this thread:

In Islam, invoking blessings from anyone other than Allah is shirk (associating partners with him). Vowing in the name of anything other than Allah is shirk. And calling upon anyone other than Allah is shirk of worship.

The Prophet Muhammad said: 'Dua is Worship'. Dua literally means supplication.

eg. If I were to call upon a dead saint, that is shirk, and I have taken him as a God besides Allah because Allah is the only who answers the prayers...

All forms of intercession is forbidden in Islam as associating partners with Allah:

" And warn by it, those who fear to be gathered to their Lord: Besides Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: That they may become pious, God-fearing" (Qur'an 6:51)

" Say to Allah belongs all intercession. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and to Him you shall all return" (Qur'an 39:44)

“Say (O Muhammad): ‘Shall we invoke others besides Allaah as false deities, that can do us neither good nor harm, and shall we turn back on our heels after Allaah has guided us (to true Monotheism)?’” [al-An’aam 6:71]

Now I dont have to outline to the Christians around here the role of Mary in their religion as intercessor. In Islam, that constitutes worship to a false god because only Allah is to be called upon. There are details and technicalities to the rule but none of them would be relevant to you at this stage in light of the topic at hand.

Peace be upon those who seek the truth

Ive heard that in sunni islam there is revearing of islamic saints
 
That would be more correctly associated with Sufism. Naqshbandi's, Qadiri's, and groups like that, normally related with people like Hamza Yusuf, Ibn Arabi, Nazim Qubrusi, and their likes.

Such is not from the teachings of Islam. From a purely objective view, in looking at the teachings of the Quran and the teachings of Mohammed (peace be upon him), the Sufis are clearly going against that which is commanded.
 

SunMessenger

Catholic
The Holy Mother whose message comes with the Sun, Whose Love Shines Brighter now than ever before instructs the Negative Forces In Our World of the following message :..." If you ask pardon with your sincere soul God will pardon you. It is I, your mother, who through the intercession of St. Michael, wish to say that you amend, that you are already in the last warnings and that I love you much and do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and We will give to you. You should sacrifice more. Think of the Passion of Jesus."
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
SunMessenger said:
The Holy Mother whose message comes with the Sun, Whose Love Shines Brighter now than ever before instructs the Negative Forces In Our World of the following message :..." If you ask pardon with your sincere soul God will pardon you. It is I, your mother, who through the intercession of St. Michael, wish to say that you amend, that you are already in the last warnings and that I love you much and do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and We will give to you. You should sacrifice more. Think of the Passion of Jesus."

Given we now know, that the stellar systems we see in the night sky are all 'suns' to say that Jesus shines like 'The Sun' gives away the pagan syncretism which is part of the problem. Personally I prefer to think of the prophets as shining as stars, I believe myself well past worshipping The Sun or even the metaphor of the sun as giving light. I have a whole thread dedicated to the concept of light in Judaism, what is called 'Christianity' and of course Islam, and I manage to avoid the use of the sun as a giver of light as universally it is limiting, with the true light of the God being nothing like the sun (light shineth in the darkness....). In fact the analogy of the sun as giver of life, the solar pagan rites be they of Rome (Sol Invictus) or Aegypt (Ra/Osiris) and its semiotic inclusion/allusion in Revelation (13:16-18) was one of the main reasons I RAN to Islam.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Abdul Latif said:
Now I dont have to outline to the Christians around here the role of Mary in their religion as intercessor. In Islam, that constitutes worship to a false god because only Allah is to be called upon. There are details and technicalities to the rule but none of them would be relevant to you at this stage in light of the topic at hand.

Thanks for the excellent post. While I would not claim that intercession isn't a form of shirk, it's also inaccurate to claim that Christians believe that Mary is a God. It may be a difference more in semantics when it comes down to practice, but I've never heard any Christians teaching that Mary is a god or on a par with God.

I would like to point out, though, that there are many Christians who don't use intercessors. I grew up in a Protestant denomination that pretty much only trotted Mary out for the Christmas pageant. The denom I was in is not unique in the Protestant branches of Christianity.

So it kinda pays to be careful about making blanket statements about Christians comitting shirk by calling on Mary as an intessor, because there are millions of them that don't.
 
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