Mary mother of God

Before I really comment, in order to have a debate both sides present material he (not the other side) feels will strengthen his point. Likewise, I cannot tell you (and you me) what material to use to prove our point. Since we are talking about Catholicism, we need not only scripture but the teachings of the Church as well.

Remember, Catholicism is not a sola scriptura faith. You're debating as if it is. So, I'll try to post scripture to the best of my memory. Since we are talking about Catholicism, I will post from the catechism as well.

katiemygirl said:

Yes, Jesus can communicate with the dead, but hear what God has to say about people who even attempt to talk to the dead.

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Actually, according to scripture (and my mistake in wording), Jesus didn't talk to the dead. The "dead" he was talking to were the spirits of his disciples alive in heaven. (Mathew 17:17) If they were "dead" in the way we know the world, Jesus would be talking to Himself. No one is dead. Scripture says you can be dead in your sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

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Catholics do believe in One Mediator:


Catechism:


Mary is no where in this and in the rest of the Book referring to Christ being Savior.

You said: "With all due respect, I would ask you to consider God's word, which says ONE God, ONE mediator." (45)

There are many mediators. There is only One between you and God that is for your salvation. Every other mediator, You, me, John, Mary, Jospeh, Moses, are all mediators but we have no role in anyone's salvation--we are not Christ and we are mediators. As simple as I can make it. Many mothers, one Mother. Many fathers, one Father. This doesn't need scripture. It's just grammatically and contextually correct according to the English Language.

Poster: "[Mary], rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ." in our salvation. (You asked where is that in scripture)

"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May your word to me be fulfilled." Then the angel left her." Luke 1:38

Without Mary, there would be no human Christ. Without Mary, there is no crucifixion. Without Mary, no resurrection. No mother no Child.

It is a play on words nothing more. Jesus had a Mother. Mother and Son are One flesh. Makes her a co-redeemer (playing with the grammar) AND She did not shed blood for any Christian. Christ shed blood for her.

The Catechism says:

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.

Meaning, the Virgin Mary was the Mother of Christ. In simple terms. I don't need scripture for you to know that. The Church does not make Mary a Savior.

You posted: "Regardless, you stated that Mary is a mediator. That put Mary in an equal, side by side position with Jesus."

Where in the Catechism and Bible does it say Mary sits at the right hand or left hand of Her Father?

If you are proving something against the Church, you need to provide statements or doctrines not opinions or speeches that Mary IS a redeemer of some sort. You need Catholic doctrines to prove your point.

You posted: "When you say Mary is a mediator, that makes two mediators. That is a direct contradiction to what the Scripture says."

No Catholic is saying Mary is a Mediator (your definition) between you and God. In other words, no one is saying Mary saves you. Where did you get that from?

Repeating what Kepha said: ""Co" mediator is simple English. It does not mean "sole Mediator".

Co-mediator is what I described above and my other posts. You cannot separate a mother from her child. You can see the direct relationship Mary had with Jesus even the little parts of trying to find Him while he was preaching in the temple at a young age.
Luke 2:41-52

Read posts 69 (I mean all the scripture, don't glimpse over it)
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Katiemygirl,

You Cannot get around it. If you want to talk about Catholicism you have to listen to and post Catholic doctrine to prove your side true and our side false.

It's like arguing over Quran scripture using the Bible.

I'm actually taking a class on life guidance now.. you think this is helping me or testing my nerves?

Unification said:

love, love, love, love, love. We all should listen and respond to each other, rather than react.

The only truth will ever come by spending quiet quality time in all pureness with the Lord, He's in us all. Until then, there will always be divide and arguing.

You're all wrong and right in ways. Humble yourselves, let the Master Physician teach. The Lord knows how many times I've been wrong and argued for and taught a bunch of garbage. I'll be the first to admit that, I was wrong about so much. It's hard letting go of what our ego wants to believe and see. Just surrender to the Lord, completely give up the mind and trust in Him.

Peace and blessings to all, we are all in this together, all having the same God. What is common amongst all humans' is of God.

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Ha. ha. Second Vatican. I was told by many Catholics they were uncomfortable with a lot of things about the below. The Catechism doesn't reflect this at all... but I think Pope John Paul ll wrote the recent one I have. Believe it or not, no matter what you read, you still do not know a person's relationship with Christ. If I went by your argument, all the Catholics who Identify as Catholic are not.... they just have a relationship with Christ through the Church that's all.

I can't defend what you posted intelligently. I can repeat that Catholicism is not a "Bible only" faith and it feels like you are implying that Catholics are not Christian because of how different Popes express themselves rather than their relationship with Christ Himself.

That's like my telling you, "I pray to my grandmother" and you pull out a bible, or a document somewhere that says "thou shall not pray to dead people" and you define my relationship and my spirituality--my life by what you are reading?! Rather than asking Me.

Christianity is a community faith not solitary.

katiemygirl said:

You obviously missed the very beginning of the conversation. I posted from your own catholic literature that the RCC teaches Mary is co-mediator, co-redeemer. Kephra and Chlotilde are defending this teaching. Please go back thru the thread and read ALL of their posts and mine.

Better yet, ask them yourself if Mary is co-redeemer, co-redeemer.

Second Vatican Council: “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from, nor adds anything to, the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.” (Lumen Gentium, n. 62.)

Pope Leo XIII: “The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

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Carlita said:

I'm actually taking a class on life guidance now.. you think this is helping me or testing my nerves?

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Carlita said:

I'm actually taking a class on life guidance now.. you think this is helping me or testing my nerves?

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I wish the best for you with that. Different things and different interactions help different people.
I do know that the Lord is best and true physician though, the more time we give Him, the more He's guiding. I learned through mistakes and sin, left myself rock bottom and had nowhere else to turn. Was designed that way. No matter how stupid I was, I was being taught a lesson and the Lord is patient. Truly grateful and blessed for all of my discipline for my actions. My way and will kept failing no matter how good a man I thought I was. Always come a point where one has enough and everything is caving in on them, and we keep trying to dig ourselves out of holes that we are responsible for and create.. And dig bigger holes. Really discover the inner you, the blame turns to self accountability, the chips and burdens we have on our minds from others and from our past turn to forgiveness and at more and more rest and peace. The insecurities and fears begin to vanish, the feeling of not being good enough, the feeling of having to please others turns to how can I only please God. Truly putting all of our trust in the Lord turns to blessings. The impurity becomes purity. Suddenly the mind just transforms and you become more and more aware of yourself and surroundings, you have direction in life and guided into peace and rest. So much more. We always reap what we sew, it's just really important and always starts by fearing the Lord and knowing He sees all and our every move and hears our every thought. Turns into self accountability and so on. It's always best to seek the true physician. One on one and a still mind. Patience. It truly comes. Many blessings, and best wishes with your class.

Jesus gets his ENTIRE human nature from his mother Mary. Jesus is a person that is fully human and fully divine-not separable. God/man. Mary is his mother. Mary is the mother of God. Simple.

A thought to think about is, at the crucifixion, both the father and Mary are offering their son.

katiemygirl said:

Paul isn't lying, but you reject what he says. You make him out to be a liar when you say there is more than one mediator. Paul says there is only ONE. Why can't you believe what Paul says? Doesn't that bother your conscience to contradict him?

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Sorry for that previous post...what I first wrote was confusing even to me after I wrote it. haha.

The best I can tell you is you and I have different definitions for that word mediator. Since I can't quite make out how you view the relationships between Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Jesus, I'm assuming you see that word as giving a Title (equivalent to the title of God) that occupies some physical position. Where as I see that word as describing a role that Jesus played. It is a role that only he did or could do, hence the modifier one. And it is a role where his blood payed a ransom,( not Marys). I see no contradictions. IOW...
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" when taken into context with verses 1-6 , means pray for (or intercede for) eachother because it makes God happy because Jesus (who was the only one who could) made it happen by the ransom he payed. (which is a summary of verses 1-6)

chlotilde said:

Sorry for that previous post...what I first wrote was confusing even to me after I wrote it. haha.

The best I can tell you is you and I have different definitions for that word mediator. Since I can't quite make out how you view the relationships between Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Jesus, I'm assuming you see that word as giving a Title (equivalent to the title of God) that occupies some physical position. Where as I see that word as describing a role that Jesus played. It is a role that only he did or could do, hence the modifier one. And it is a role where his blood payed a ransom,( not Marys). I see no contradictions. IOW...
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" when taken into context with verses 1-6 , means pray for (or intercede for) eachother because it makes God happy because Jesus (who was the only one who could) made it happen by the ransom he payed. (which is a summary of verses 1-6)

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I see the "trinity" exactly as you do. One God, three persons.

There is only one definitiin for mediator, and Jesus is the only one who can rightfully be described as the ONE mediator between mankind and God.

What catholics have done is given Mary the title of "co-mediator," and then have redefined the term to fit the theology.

You are claiming that when a p

And you wonder why those who are not catholic are sickened by this? Put yourself in the position of non catholics for just a moment. Can you not see how giving Mary a title, which can only be applied to our ONE mediator is an abomination, blasphemy and heresy to non catholics? It is idolatry!

There is no Biblical support for elevating Mary to the status catholics have raised her to. None! Mariology is based on tradition, and you know it.

Once again, the catholic church proves it is a false church because it negates the word of God in favor of its traditions.

Wharton said:

Jesus gets his ENTIRE human nature from his mother Mary. Jesus is a person that is fully human and fully divine-not separable. God/man. Mary is his mother. Mary is the mother of God. Simple.

A thought to think about is, at the crucifixion, both the father and Mary are offering their son.

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Mary is the Mother of Jesus, not God.

God is a title. That title represents Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When you use the title God, you are referring to the three, the Godhead, not just Jesus alone.

So to say that Mary is the Mother of God is false. Mary is not the Father's Mother, nor is she the Holy Spirit's Mother.

It is wrong to call Mary the Mother of God. It is blasphemous!

Like so many of the titles Mary has been given by the catholic church, they are misleading, and they are false. They elevate Mary to God status. Mary, Queen of heaven, Mary, co-mediator, co-redeemer, co-advocate. Mary, Mother of God. Conveying these titles to Mary is blasphemy.

The catholic church has not honored Mary. They have exulted her, making her into a goddess. They have dishonored her. What a slap in the face to the Mother of the Messiah.

Mary, the Mother of Jesus was blessed among women. She is to be honored. She is not to be given higher status than any other christian, and most of all, she is not to be given equal status with the Godhead.

Place your trust in Jesus Christ, and learn about Him through His word. Only He can save. Mary cannot!

katiemygirl said:

I see the "trinity" exactly as you do. One God, three persons. .

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I'm not convinced we do. Trinity is one God, 3 beings...not 3 persons (to me, person implies a human like you or I, a being is bit more hard to define without being circular and pulling a quote from Bill Clinton on what "is" means).
Theology flows from If A then B then C then D. You want to argue about D. But if we don't agree on A, arguing D is rather pointless.

katiemygirl said:

Mariology is based on tradition, and you know it..

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All religious practices are based on traditions (by all definitions of that word).

katiemygirl said:

it negates the word of God in favor of its traditions..

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We have different perspectives. I see you as arguing for a definition of "Jesus the Mediator" that came from your traditions. I've yet to understand what that means to you ...is in, if he is between me and God, then he can not be God unless he is somehow a lesser God, or not a God at all? But let me go back and reread some of your other posts (later) because I haven't read them all as there was a lot of redundancy I skipped over.

chlotilde said:

I'm not convinced we do. Trinity is one God, 3 beings...not 3 persons (to me, person implies a human like you or I, a being is bit more hard to define without being circular and pulling a quote from Bill Clinton on what "is" means).
Theology flows from If A then B then C then D. You want to argue about D. But if we don't agree on A, arguing D is rather pointless.

All religious practices are based on traditions (by all definitions of that word).

We have different perspectives. I see you as arguing for a definition of "Jesus the Mediator" that came from your traditions. I've yet to understand what that means to you ...is in, if he is between me and God, then he can not be God unless he is somehow a lesser God, or not a God at all? But let me go back and reread some of your other posts (later) because I haven't read them all as there was a lot of redundancy I skipped over.

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Mark 7:8-9
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Unification said:

Mark 7:8-9
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

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okay...<insert head bang icon...if I knew how to do that> Why do some feel a point is made by turning Bible quotes into word games? Words are scribbles on a piece of paper, their meaning is far more than the scribble used.
My family has a TRADITION where we say grace (a selection of prayers including the "Our Father" found in Matthew) before dinner. Is that to what Mark refers?

chlotilde said:

I'm not convinced we do. Trinity is one God, 3 beings...not 3 persons (to me, person implies a human like you or I, a being is bit more hard to define without being circular and pulling a quote from Bill Clinton on what "is" means).
Theology flows from If A then B then C then D. You want to argue about D. But if we don't agree on A, arguing D is rather pointless.

All religious practices are based on traditions (by all definitions of that word).

We have different perspectives. I see you as arguing for a definition of "Jesus the Mediator" that came from your traditions. I've yet to understand what that means to you ...is in, if he is between me and God, then he can not be God unless he is somehow a lesser God, or not a God at all? But let me go back and reread some of your other posts (later) because I haven't read them all as there was a lot of redundancy I skipped over.

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Read any of my posts in the trinity threads. I believe exactly as all the catholics who post there do, including Wharton, who I have clicked LIKE on many of his posts. I think you are reaching for anything you think you can in order to redirect your attention away from your Marilotry.

Christianity is based on Biblical tradition, not the traditions of men.

My argument for Jesus as mediator is straight from the Bible. I have repeatedly posted 1Timothy 2:5. I don't need to add or take from it. It speaks for itself. There is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and mankind, and that is the man Christ Jesus.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Tim. 2:5

It sounds like you do not have an understanding of the trinity. You can't conceive of God the Son being both God and mediator between mankind and God the Father. Jesus is not a lesser God.

chlotilde said:

My family has a TRADITION where we say grace (a selection of prayers including the "Our Father" found in Matthew) before dinner. Is that to what Mark refers?

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and to respond to myself (cuz yeah I argue with myself all the time.lol) the catholic has more definitions for this word than your average non-Catholic...so to you catholics who know what I mean, I'm using little T not big T.

katiemygirl said:

There is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and mankind,
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and are they the same thing?

katiemygirl said:

Read any of my posts in the trinity threads. I believe exactly as all the catholics who post there do, including Wharton, who I have clicked LIKE on many of his posts. I think you are reaching for anything you think you can in order to redirect your attention away from your Marilotry.

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since you don't specifically mention your brand of Christianity, I don't know what your specific views of a Trinity are, and I view you as playing a word game by misdirecting my meaning.

chlotilde said:

since you don't specifically mention your brand of Christianity, I don't know what your specific views of a Trinity are, and I view you as playing a word game by misdirecting my meaning.

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here I go responding to myself again, (laughing at myself), I'm not being "mean" in any of this (because I view that kind of debating futile...that is why I rarely get into these things). I get that you think we are wrong...I'm not here to convince you otherwise. But...where as (I think) your purpose here is tell me I'm wrong, my purpose here in responding is to figure out where we differ and where that dichotomy starts.

chlotilde said:

since you don't specifically mention your brand of Christianity, I don't know what your specific views of a Trinity are, and I view you as playing a word game by misdirecting my meaning.

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Go to the very popular trinity thread or the Jesus is God thread. I have defended the trinity there. If I can find the time, I will copy some of my posts from there. The trinity is one are where I believe you and I will agree. I know I read the catholic catechism and agree with their view of the trinity.

I have a question for you. In your own words, can you tell me how you worship God. In other words, what particular acts do you perform to worship Him? In your view, what constitues worship?

chlotilde said:

here I go responding to myself again, (laughing at myself), I'm not being "mean" in any of this (because I view that kind of debating futile...that is why I rarely get into these things). I get that you think we are wrong...I'm not here to convince you otherwise. But...where as (I think) your purpose here is tell me I'm wrong, my purpose here in responding is to figure out where we differ and where that dichotomy starts.

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Hahaha! I've done the same on more than one occasion. I've posted to myself. It's really not too different than what I do in my home on a daily basis. I talk to myself, out loud, often.

I don't think my purpose here is show you I'm right and your wrong. I know I'm probably wrong about many things. That's why I spend a lot of time studying God's word. I want to know His truth, and I want to obey Him.

I guess that's why I'm here. I want others to trust in God and not men. I fear for people, and their eternal destinies if they continue on the road they are on. I want everyone to go to heaven. God repeatedly warns us throughout the Bible that there is only one way, and that is His way.

chlotilde said:

and to respond to myself (cuz yeah I argue with myself all the time.lol) the catholic has more definitions for this word than your average non-Catholic...so to you catholics who know what I mean, I'm using little T not big T.

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Saying the model prayer is a Biblical tradition. It's great that your family does this. Good for you! Thumbs up!

chlotilde said:

and are they the same thing?

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I'm not sure I get your question. If you are asking if Jesus and the Father are God, the answer is yes. Each has a different role. Obviously one of Jesus' roles was to die on the cross. Another of Jesus' roles is mediator. The Father's role is not the same as the Son's. The Holy Spirit's role is not the same as the Father's or the Son's. Yet, all three are God. They work together in perfect unity. Each relates to mankind in a different way.

Do you agree that though God is one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate distinct beings, notice I did not say persons , and each has a different role? Can we agree on this point?