The Exodus Never Happened?

Sapiens said:

Jayhawker Soule said:

It was the Sea of Reads.

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Sea of Reeds, as in plants like papyrus not books like papyrus.

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I should have stuck with the Hebrew.

Sapiens said:

What is the old saying? "Ten Rabbis, twenty opinions?"

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You number is probably a lot lower than it should be , and this also applies to us lay Jews as well. When we do agree on something, it's usually cause for celebration.

Sapiens said:

I was just enjoying the malapropism.

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Mrs Malaprops has a lot to answer for....!

Right...... Now........... Aren't you an oceanographer or maritime specialist? Could you bring yourself to agree that the Passover happening over a Full Moon, and the Exodus occurring a day or so later, bang on the 24-48 hour delay for H.A.T. and L.A.T ...Spring Tides, does fit with the story as reported in 'Exodus'?

If you could bring yourself (even) to a one liner which includes 'possible', then you could join the one-liner club. See below....

Lyndon: Perhaps a smaller number of ancient Jews were taken to Egypt, inbred and lived among other slaves and servants, then has some kind of rebellion and some 400 years later a considerably larger group escaped to southern Palestine, through the Sinai desert.

Bunyip: I was being sincere. In your view there could be enough of a historical core to inform the later parable.

Jayhawker: Parenthetically, Friedman rejects the premise that the Exodus is fiction.

OldBadger: The legend is most probably based upon truths,

Outhouse: Thing is, there could be a historical core from refracted memory in oral traditions that the mythology may reflect.

psychoslice: Yes there could be an aliment of historical core,

OMG..... I'm getting out of here.......

If my grandmother had two wheels she might have been a bicycle.

oldbadger said:

Outhouse: Thing is, there could be a historical core from refracted memory in oral traditions that the mythology may reflect.

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I left that as an open possibility.


But as written, it did not go down that way, or even close. We have displaced Canaanites right after the Bronze age collapse slowly migrating to the highlands of Israel. Not one word is up for debate or question.

Now what is up for debate, is what other Semitic's joined these Canaanites.

What we see is southern influence of Yahweh, and northern traditions from El. Yet even then there was no real clear southern or northern divisions that stayed that way to long.


What it does come down to, is by the time the exodus book was finished, it is a theological piece that reflects a much later time period, and has nothing at al to do with the ethnogenesis of Israelites.

These people had been beat down so many times, they did not know their own MULTI CULTURAL heritage.

It's an allegory basking on the banks of the Nile.

Friedman's views of the Exodus are heavily modified and very weak correlation to no correlation. However he is right about the Sinai. Research in the region is difficult when done away from known settlements areas. A focus of research should be in areas between settlements and known "fertile" areas. Nomads do not just wander the land with no purpose. If nomads were pastoral there would be a movement pattern based on the cycle of year, summer and winter, for fresh pastures for the herds. These type of movements can become very structured within a society to the point of being rights of passage, age, etc. An analysis of current and past nomadic groups in the area could be used to identify certain locations as station stops along these routes; watering holes, trade centers, winter/summer crops, etc. Examination of trade routes in the area could also be used as nomad still take produce to market in order to exchange goods they produce for goods they do not. The grave I cited has samples of items which are no nomadic in origin such as glass beads.

A major issue is also the current nation-state boundaries. There are 4 national borders dividing the area. This causes political baggage to hinder research especially when it comes to authorized excavations. Just look at views of Mtn Sinai's location.

Shad said:

Just look at views of Mtn Sinai's location.

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The original location would be unknown. They just have guesses.


But I ask why did a 2-4 week walk take so long ?


Why do we factually see a slow increase in population size in the highlands of Israel over a 200 year period from 1200 BC to 1000 BC by people using Canaanite language, alphabet, pottery, and mythology including Canaanite deities?

Jayhawker Soule said:

^ Ya gotta love the adolescent condescension.

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Someone has do tell the truth lol.

No one knows for sure what actually happened, and there probably is no way to ever know, the funny thing to me is the huge amount of almost "religious" faith that the naysayers have in some academics OPINIONS, as they state them as FACT, and claim everyone is ignorant that does not accept their THEORIES. They are obviously suffering from a similar kind of ignorance that the believers in literal word for word authenticity of the Bible have, they actually seem to believe in the literal word for word authenticity of Exodus denying academics THEORIES.

outhouse said:

The original location would be unknown. They just have guesses.


But I ask why did a 2-4 week walk take so long ?


Why do we factually see a slow increase in population size in the highlands of Israel over a 200 year period from 1200 BC to 1000 BC by people using Canaanite language, alphabet, pottery, and mythology including Canaanite deities?

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I agree, I am just pointing opposing views regarding a basic identification of a place which is central to the story. Another issue is KSA has little respect for historical sites outside the state views which are accepted. Look at what they did to their own sites in Mecca for the sake of that monstrosity of a hotel for Hijj. Keep in mind I am not doubting the Canaanite emergence theory. I am just pointing out how difficult research in the Sinai is since the area in question crosses borders.

Hypothetically speaking if the group was pastoral movement could have been restricted due to water and grazing necessities. Granted this does not accord for the 40 years wandering but it would restrict movement on a seasonal basis.

It a pity that most cling to the literal stories of the bible, when there is no need to, by doing so and trying to protect those beliefs only makes you miss what the stories are pointing to, which is much more important.

psychoslice said:

It a pity that most cling to the literal stories of the bible, when there is no need to, by doing so and trying to protect those beliefs only makes you miss what the stories are pointing to, which is much more important.

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The problem with dispensing with literalism though is that if you accept that one part is metaphor, you may as well just see god, jesus, salvation, heaven etc as metaphor as well. Which is why most believers prefer to keep the baby and the bathwater.

Lyndon said:

No one knows for sure what actually happened, and there probably is no way to ever know, the funny thing to me is the huge amount of almost "religious" faith that the naysayers have in some academics OPINIONS, as they state them as FACT, and claim everyone is ignorant that does not accept their THEORIES. They are obviously suffering from a similar kind of ignorance that the believers in literal word for word authenticity of the Bible have, they actually seem to believe in the literal word for word authenticity of Exodus denying academics THEORIES.

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Yeah, you just gotta hate on them pointed headed intellectuals in their ivory towers that know more than everybody else.

Bunyip said:

The problem with dispensing with literalism though is that if you accept that one part is metaphor, you may as well just see god, jesus, salvation, heaven etc as metaphor as well. Which is why most believers prefer to keep the baby and the bathwater.

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Yes I see, but I think behind it all is fear, they are too scared to not see it as just metaphors.

psychoslice said:

Yes I see, but I think behind it all is fear, they are too scared to not see it as just metaphors.

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Yes, it is the old story of Dumbo - they have been sold the 'magic feather' and paid a high price for it. Nobody wants to admit falling for a scam.

outhouse said:

The original location would be unknown. They just have guesses.


But I ask why did a 2-4 week walk take so long ?


Why do we factually see a slow increase in population size in the highlands of Israel over a 200 year period from 1200 BC to 1000 BC by people using Canaanite language, alphabet, pottery, and mythology including Canaanite deities?

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Look at the scenario. Moses told Pharaoh that they had to go out into the desert three days to find the place to worship. Moses and the Israelites rush out of Egypt, moving day and night. A one days journey with herd or children was eleven miles. We can postulate that they averaged 18 miles a day in the rush. Pharaoh sent some horsemen to spy on them. When they didn't stop on the fourth day, a spy rode back. 40 miles a day is a long day, so he took two days. Pharaoh took a few days to organize a horse and chariot army (no walking army) so he could chase them at 40 miles a day. It would take Pharaoh's army about one week to catch up. (8+7 daysX18 mi/day=270 miles) (7X40=280). The account indicates one to two weeks (one week travel plus one week to recover from the grueling run) after the Yam Suph crossing before the one month time is mentioned. This puts the Yam Suph location as far away from the Nile Delta as the only location mentioned for the yam Suph, 1 Ki 9:26, the northern tip of the Red Sea at Ezion Geber. I am not saying this proves the whole thing happened, but only that the math fits a 270/280 mile journey to the Red Sea.

greentwiga said:

Look at the scenario

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In context, it does not have anything to do with what I wrote about.


What you stated is factually unsubstantiated, in every single word.

greentwiga said:

but only that the math fits a 270/280 mile journey to the Red Sea

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Out of the way from where they are said to have come from.


And you cannot overcome the factual evidence that shows a slow migration from 1200 BC to 1000 BC that slowly filed the highlands of Israel.

Before 1200 BC there is no evidence of occupation of these people.

During this 200 year period, they factually used Canaanite pottery, language, alphabet, mythology, and deities.

Thanks for playing but we do not debate personal imagination, theology, or apologetics in a historical setting, we need real data to work with.


Start providing credible sources.