Idiot compassion

I'm interested in making their lives better.

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You don't get to decide what makes life "better".

Most people won't do it when they have an easy way to escape.

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Sure, i know when i get stressed, all i can think about is how much easier life would be if i could freeze and starve on the street; i guess that would just be indulgent of me.

Karl R said:

I'm not interested in making their lives easier. I'm interested in making their lives better. Each time an addict gets another drink or another rock, his or her life gets a little bit worse.

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Is is "better" for the person to out on the street suffering from withdrawal against his or her will?

As mr. guy said, it's not for us to decide what makes life "better" for someone else. Respectfully, I find it presumptuous to think that we have the right to make decisions for someone else, for no other reason than because we happen to be in a better position than someone else. Plus, as standing_alone said, we don't know what a person is going to do with the money. To think that we do know is again, imo, presumptuous. Since the right to self-determination is a cornerstone of my values, my respect for the person asking for help necessitates that I respect the person's right to self-determination. Period.

Obviously, you are free to decide how to react when someone asks you for money. I respect that your decision is based on your sincere belief that this is the best course of action and am not advocating that you act against your judgement. But similarly, I and others are doing the same.

Karl R said:

I'm going to borrow you to illustate a parallel situation.

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Okay, if we’re going to play this game of yours, let’s at least have my original quote (not taken out of context like in your post):

my original quote said:

I don't care if it goes to food or an addiction, I'd prefer it go torwards food, but I'm not here to judge what people spend the money on and if someone wants a few spare coins or a dollar from me, they can have it.

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Karl R said:

Hypothetical Scenario #1
A friend of yours (let's say Buttons*) has been depressed lately. You even suspect she might be suicidal. She comes up to you and asks if you can help her get a gun "for protection". Would you help her get a gun, or would your judgement tell you to do something different?

Hypothetical Scenario #2
Buttons* is still depressed and possibly suicidal. Instead of going to you, she comes to me and asks for a gun "for protection". I loan her one, show her how to handle it safely, and give her a few tips for shooting it.

When you find out that she got a gun from me, you come to me and ask me if I knew that she was depressed and possibly suicidal. I reply, "I noticed that, but she said she needed 'for protection', and who am I to judge how she uses it?"

How would you judge my actions?

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If Buttons* was depressed and came to me to help her get a gun, no I would not help her get the gun. I would talk to her about what’s wrong and seek professional help for her. If she got the gun from you and I found out about it, I’d try to take the gun away from her and again seek professional help for her. However these scenarios don’t compare. When I give strangers on the street some spare change – two dollars at most – I am not giving them whatever substance it is they may purchase for themselves to do themselves "harm." I am simply giving them some money that they can choose what to spend it on. They may buy food or they may buy booze, but it is up to them to make their own decision. I’ve already stated where I prefer that money to go (you know, that part you cut out of my quote in your post), but I can’t force them to buy what I prefer them to buy. If I had food on me, I would give them the food, but if I only have a small amount of spare change, I will usually give it to them. However, with your gun scenario you are directly giving the person the object in which they will harm themselves. There’s a difference. So, your scenarios aren’t all that relatable.

Karl R said:

The Real Scenario
Addicts are killing themselves; they're just doing it across a few years. Almost every addict on the street has a parent, child, sibling or close friend who wishes they would get better. How do you think the family members feel about the strangers who help their loved ones feed their addictions?

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Their family members obviously don’t care too much about them if they are out on the streets begging for money, then do they?


Who is to judge what is better for someone? If a homeless person wants to buy his/herself a little booze to end a hard day, who am I to judge? Heck, there are times I will sit back and have some beer at the end of a hard day – and those living on the streets have it much harder than me.

I realize this is a highly inflammatory topic. I had to wait overnight to calm down enough to reply without being angry. Do not feel obliged to reply immediately if you need to do the same.

mr.guy said:

You don't get to decide what makes life "better".

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Which is better: for a person to feed his or her addiction, or for that person to lack the opportunity?

Almost everyone in the country would say the latter is better. I'm informing them how to accomplish that while still helping the homeless.

mr.guy said:

Sure, i know when i get stressed, all i can think about is how much easier life would be if i could freeze and starve on the street; i guess that would just be indulgent of me.

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Some basic biology of alcohol:
Alcohol causes blood vessels to rush to the surface of the skin. This is why you feel warmer when you drink alcohol. This process causes you to lose body heat faster, which makes you more vulnerable to hypothermia. Since you feel warmer, you're also less likely to seek adequate protection from the cold. To top it off, your judgment might be impaired from the alcohol (moderate to severe hypothermia can also impair your judgment, and the effects might be cumulative).

When people die of hypothermia (freeze to death), alcohol is frequently a contributing factor.

If you want to prevent a person from freezing, drive them to a shelter. Drive them to a hotel and pay for their room. Buy them one of those super-warm sleeping bags.

lilithu said:

Is is "better" for the person to out on the street suffering from withdrawal against his or her will?

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To the best of my knowledge, all rehab centers require a person to be sober when he or she enters.

Withdrawal might make someone more willing to enter into rehab. I won't help that person avoid withdrawal.

lilithu said:

Since the right to self-determination is a cornerstone of my values, my respect for the person asking for help necessitates that I respect the person's right to self-determination.

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In my opinion, the addict isn't determining their own life. The addiction is making the important decisions. Without the ability to feed their addiction, that person will hopefully regain the ability to determine their own course.

We both value self-determination. We just disagree about the circumstances that promote it.

standing_alone said:

However, with your gun scenario you are directly giving the person the object in which they will harm themselves. There’s a difference. So, your scenarios aren’t all that relatable.

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In the last scenario, there's a middle man (convenience store manager or dealer) who will always supply the addiction for money. In both scenarios, the person with impaired judgment has to make the critical decision. In both scenarios, someone else provides the means (money or a gun) without knowing how it's going to be used, and with a good reason to expect it will be used for self-destructive purposes.

To me, their not only relatable, their almost identical.

standing_alone said:

Their family members obviously don’t care too much about them if they are out on the streets begging for money, then do they?

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If you follow this link, you'll see a picture of Greg Mox, an acquaintance of mine from high school ... and a drug addict.
http://www.adoptedprisoners.com/display.cgi?prisoner=michigan_231008

Greg was living at home with his parents. One night he got up, murdered his parents in their bed, and set their house on fire to cover up the murder.

If you have a family member who is a drug addict, your life is difficult and complicated. The decisions you have to make are even more difficult and complicated.


A man named Joe:
In May of 1989, I was traveling with some christian friends through St. Louis. While we were in the park under the arch, a panhandler came up to us and asked us for money for food. I would have brushed him off, but one of my friends invited him to join us for dinner. The man accepted our offer, and introduced himself as Joe.

Over dinner, Joe mentioned that he'd been sick. When we found out that he'd served in the armed forces, we decided to take him to the local VA hospital.

Upon arriving at the hospital, we discovered that Joe's real name was Demian Manley. The ER doctor had examined Joe recently, and stated that all of Joe's medical problems were alcohol related. Unless Joe cleaned up, there was nothing that could be done. Upon inquiring, we discovered the VA hospital had an alcohol rehab program. Joe would be elgible (and Joe said he wanted to enter it), but he'd have to be sober when he showed up. Joe had a bottle of hard liquor on him when he approached us for money, and he'd been drinking it all evening. Joe was far from sober.

We decided to take Joe to a local shelter. It was late, but we finally found one that would take Joe in. We asked them to tell Joe what happened in the morning, because we were sure that he wouldn't remember. We didn't know whether Joe would try to clean up, but we wanted him to have a chance. After five hours with Joe, we drove on to our destination.

I never expected to find out what happened, but one of my friends followed up. Joe did go the VA hospital the following morning, and he entered the rehab program. Two weeks later, Joe died of alcohol-related problems.



Ignoring the addicts is easy. Giving money to the addicts is easy. Genuinely helping a person is hard work.

17 years ago I discovered that there was a better way to deal with people like Joe.

Karl R said:

I don't live in a great neighborhood. I get asked for change a few times a day by strangers. I never give them any.

I know the statistics. There's more than a 90% chance that the person asking me for money intends to spend it on alcohol or some other addiction. If I help them feed their addiction, I'm doing something evil, not something good.


I was reading "Awakening the Buddha Within" by Lama Surya Das and found a very similar sentiment expressed:

A friend addicted to alcohol, drugs, gambling, or shopping pleads with you to loan him money - "just one last time" - to feed his habit. Your child begs for permission to do something that you know is potentially self-destructive or dangerous. Your mate is consistently hurtful, abusive, and unkind, yet you consistently forgive him or her. Your troubled relative or friend does something you know is wrong, and then convinces you to participate in a cover-up so that he or she will not have to face the consequences. If you give in to such demands, you are practicing "idiot compassion."


I constantly see people give money to strangers. Some may feel pity, others may just want to get them out of their faces. None of them seem to think (or care) about how that money is going to get used.


There are other ways to help, if you're willing to take the time.

If someone comes up to me and asks for money for food, I either offer them some food (if I'm carrying some), or I offer to go buy them some (if I have time). Sometimes someone will take me up on my offer. More often I'm given excuses why that won't work, and they really need me to give them some money instead.

In any case, it's very hard to pay for a beer with a tuna sandwich.

Some people carry around gift certificates for food or bus tokens that they give when someone asks for food or money for the bus. That's ineffective. They'll immediately try to sell them for money. (I'm one of the people they try to sell them to.)

If you don't have the time to get personally involved, I recommend giving money only to reputable charities. They'll make certain the money gets used in a beneficial manner by somebody.

I know some people who carry around non-perishable food to give away. It's frequently refused, and sometimes thrown away, but it can't be used to buy beer either.

There's one more way you can show compassion without feeding someone's addiction:
Treat them like they're human. Make eye contact. Exchange pleasantries. You don't have to become their friend. Just show them the same courtesy you'd show another total stranger. Most people treat them like trash, so it does mean something to them.


How do the rest of you feel? Do you agree that it's categorically wrong to give money to strangers who ask you for change?

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If i was to withhold help from others because most of them where fakes. Then the time would come when i would withhold help from a truly needy person. For the sake of that one truly needy person i would give money to one hundred fakes.

What a person does with the money they receive is their doing and if they take money falsely then that is their sin. But to me if i have the ability to give, but i withhold that from one who truly needs it then i have sinned.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hi!

My faith prohibits both begging and giving to beggars.

Peace,

Bruce

Karl R said:

Ignoring the addicts is easy. Giving money to the addicts is easy. Genuinely helping a person is hard work.

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No one is saying that one should give money instead of helping them past their addiction. If you must get mad about something, get mad that not enough people care to help regardless of whether they give money or not.

Past that, I see no point in continuing this discussion, since we've made our points and are now just arguing on emotion.

Karl R said:

I don't live in a great neighborhood. I get asked for change a few times a day by strangers. I never give them any.

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When someone asks for "change" why not give them what they really need?

Matthew 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' NIV

Hebrews 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. NIV

Adstar said:

If i was to withhold help from others because most of them where fakes. Then the time would come when i would withhold help from a truly needy person. For the sake of that one truly needy person i would give money to one hundred fakes.

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You make it sound like you only have two options -- to give money or not to give money.

Money isn't the only kind of help, and often not even the best kind you can give someone.

Like I said, take the time to go with the person and get them some food. Offer them some food you already have. Take them to a shelter. If they're really hungry, they will NOT refuse good food.

Less than 1 out of 10 times when I offer someone food do they accept it.

Booko said:

You make it sound like you only have two options -- to give money or not to give money.

Money isn't the only kind of help, and often not even the best kind you can give someone.

Like I said, take the time to go with the person and get them some food. Offer them some food you already have. Take them to a shelter. If they're really hungry, they will NOT refuse good food.

Less than 1 out of 10 times when I offer someone food do they accept it.

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I was simply answering the original post. I was not talking against offering other kinds of help. The point i was making is that it is better to give to one asking for help rather than have a policy of not helping others because most of them are con-artists.

God will deal with the con-artists. These con-artists are not defrauding me when they take the money i have, they are stealing out of the mouths of the truly needy. Every dollar they take from me is one less dollar i have to give to the truly needy. They are stealing from the poor.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

When people die of hypothermia (freeze to death), alcohol is frequently a contributing factor.

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Exposure a greater factor yet.

People in need often do not know what they need. Coming alongside a person in need does not mean getting sucked in by their need. It does not mean that we have to give them the help they ask for. Should we decide to address their need, we have to address the real need -- not necessarily what they "want." If someone wants money "for food," why not just give them food? If someone wants a gun "for pretection," don't break the law! Get them into a shelter where they'll be safe.

I think that some are absolutely wrong about this subject. When the needy come to us for help, it is absolutely up to us to determine what kind of help is best for them, because we are the ones who are not blinded by the need. The help you give is up to you, not the person asking for help.

... it is absolutely up to us to determine what kind of help is best for them...

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And now we enter: the lobotomy.

mr.guy said:

And now we enter: the lobotomy.

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I think you're misunderstanding me here. If your help is in the form of a gift of some kind, then you give the gift to them freely and unconditionally...otherwise, it's not a gift. But, let's assume that a man is dangling froma bridge by a rope, and he wants you to cut the rope and haul him up...and the man weighs 300 lbs. Are you going to give him the help he wants, or are you going to call the rescue squad and give him what you know he needs? Or are you just going to ignore him?

For goodness sake, we are talking about giving someone a few bucks on the spur of the moment every once in a while. Karl and others are right that is it better to help people in other ways, ways that are more likey to effect a cure rather than treat the symptoms, or make things substanially worse. And Karl did make a point of saying he is frequently accosted where he lives, enough so that he strategizes to carry food and is prepared with alternative to giving money.

But, to make it out like it is bad to give a person a little something that they have asked for in need, and that you decided to take at face value rather than making judements about them, and imply that a kindness is in fact evil, just seems a little extreme to me.

A woman approached me in a parking lot while I was with my young daughter. She told me she was out of gas, that her car was a few blocks away, and that her children were waiting for her somewhere, and that she lived out of town and had no one to call. So I gave her four dollars, knowing full well it might all be just an elaborate story. I can't ask a stranger to get into my car with me and my toddler so I can take them to buy gas.

My only point is you can't make blanket statements about it being wrong to give someone some cash when they ask. Didn't lilithu already quote the Biblical passage about helping Christ when we help a person in need?

lunamoth

To me, the thing I'm most uncomfortable with, I suppose, is the term "Idiot Compassion". I believe that everyone has a right to do with their own money what they wish (within the boundaries of the law, naturally! ). Terming it 'idiot' compassion, though, creates the impression that one seeks to judge the compassion of others and how they spend their money and/ or kindness.

lunamoth said:

A woman approached me in a parking lot while I was with my young daughter. She told me she was out of gas, that her car was a few blocks away, and that her children were waiting for her somewhere, and that she lived out of town and had no one to call. So I gave her four dollars, knowing full well it might all be just an elaborate story. I can't ask a stranger to get into my car with me and my toddler so I can take them to buy gas.

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If the woman was telling the truth, where were her children? Did she leave them alone in the car as she wandered the neighborhood looking for gas money? Did she leave them with a total stranger?

If you ran out of gas while driving with your toddler, would you leave your child alone? Or would you stay with your child and your car, then try to flag down some help?

I can understand that you don't want to leave someone in a tough position when there's a remote chance that they could be telling the truth (and in this case, it seems extremely unlikely). I can understand that you weren't in a good position to provide gas. At that point you need to make a judgment call, and it's not an easy ethical decision.


I had a man approach me with a similar story. He was driving home to Baytown (about 30 miles). His car ran out of gas a couple blocks away. He needed money for gas so he could get the rest of the way home. His wife and kids were in the car. He asked me for help.

I offered to walk with him to his car, help him push it to the nearest gas station, then pay for the gas. Somehow this offer didn't work for him, and he kept making excuses why I should just give him the money. As he left he told me, "If you can't find it in your heart to believe me, I guess I'll have to find someone else who will."

Two weeks later, I was at a restaurant having dinner on the patio with a friend. The same man approached and gave the same story. About three miles from where he approached me before.

Three months later I was approached by the same man again (about 4 blocks from where I encountered him the first time). He was still using the same story, and this time I could even smell the beer on him.

That man had a point. I couldn't find it in my heart (or brain) to believe him.

Adstar said:

These con-artists are not defrauding me when they take the money i have, they are stealing out of the mouths of the truly needy. Every dollar they take from me is one less dollar i have to give to the truly needy. They are stealing from the poor.

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I have unlimited opportunities to help people in need. I have limited resources (money and time) to allocate among these opportunities. I believe it's paramount that we do what we can to ensure that we're helping the needy, not the con artists. Especially when it only takes a little effort to do that.

FeathersinHair said:

I believe that everyone has a right to do with their own money what they wish. Terming it 'idiot' compassion, though, creates the impression that one seeks to judge the compassion of others and how they spend their money and/ or kindness.

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If you're handing food to someone whose hungry, you're performing a genuine act of compassion.

If you're handing a beer to an alcoholic, it's not compassion (but the alcoholic will thank you for your kindness). I would even say that you've done something wrong.

Do you disagree with either of these statements?

If you give a couple bucks to a panhandler, you're gambling. There's a small chance that you're feeding someone whose hungry, and a much larger chance that you're buying an alcoholic a beer. With those odds, why gamble? You can either provide the food/shelter/clothing directly and perform an act of genuine compassion. Or you can give that same money to a charitable organization that provides food/shelter/clothing and perform a slightly different act of genuine compassion.

Unless you have unlimited resources, why gamble with the the charitable giving you can afford?

If you live in Houston and are lacking places to charitably give, I would recommend
Star of Hope Mission http://www.sohmission.org/main.asp
and the Emergency Aid Coalition http://www.eachouston.org/


When helping others, you will end up in situations where you'll have to use your best judgment, and obvious answers aren't always apparent. But your generosity will be a lot more effective if you're in the habit of excersising some judgement in your giving.

Karl R said:

If you're handing food to someone whose hungry, you're performing a genuine act of compassion.

If you're handing a beer to an alcoholic, it's not compassion (but the alcoholic will thank you for your kindness). I would even say that you've done something wrong.

Do you disagree with either of these statements?

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Yes, actually- or rather, the phrasing. There is not the one or the other choice between handing someone who's hungry food or handing a beer to an alchoholic. If it were only that, the argument might be simplem, but it's not that simple. There's also the choice to hand a cold person a blanket, a frightened person a hand of comfort, an unwise person a book and kindness to someone who feels unloved. There are not two forms of compassion. As with people's personalities, there is a beautiful and infinite variety. That's why I argue with terming something 'idiot compassion'. Compassion is compassion. It comes from the same spot in the heart and results in the same giving. If someone recieves it in anything other than wisdom and love, then the problem is with them, not the giver. If someone is hungry and I offer them food and they take it, then I and they have fulfilled our 'responsibilites'. If I offer them food and they won't take it, then there's no problem. I will not complain that they are really alchoholics or complain that they must not be really hungry, or even complain that they are littering my street by begging. I will have done my duty in the spirit of compassion, and I will be glad of it.