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The Soul

Opethian

Active Member
I did not assert that more Google hits meant more proof. You quoted my words "The evidence for a soul and the evidence for the Titanic are the same". See my post above for the continuation of that.

To you the evidence for the FSM and God are the same.

YOU can believe in the FSM. I choose God.

Obviously I do not believe in the FSM, although the concept of dressing up like a pirate to stop global warming does seem tempting ;) .

Old books? When you go to a doctor what do you think he relies on? When you drive across a bridge or go up in a tall building what do you think the engineers relied on? When you fly in an airplane? Everything we know is based upon prior learned knowledge passed down to us over thousands of years worth of 'old books'.

The difference is that these other old books, scientific old books, are based on logic, and can be tested by logic. They are used every day to be able to do things that would fail miserably if the things written in these books were not correct. Religious books are a whole different matter. Nothing in them can be tested, it could just as well be a fictional fairy tale, nobody can say. It doesn't offer any useful information whatsoever to be able to understand how the world works. The only useful thing in it is that it gives some people morals, but most people define a set of morals for themselves without needing a book written by somebody else to guide them.

The moment someone shows you something supernatural? You look for it in others when it can only be found inside yourself. You think you are alone because that is your desire. You love yourself. You love your individuality and you are afraid of losing it.

If it could be found in myself, I would've already found it. Many people who think they have found something supernatural are just deceiving themselves. There is nothing supernatural in this world, only things you do not understand and you label yourself as supernatural. I do not think I am alone because that is my desire at all, to the contrary, I would definitely want there to be a loving god, miracles, and an afterlife etc... Who wouldn't ? The problem is that I have understood that the only reason these things came to arise in people's minds is because, at first people used them to explain things they couldn't understand (they still are used in that way, but to a lesser extent), and now many people can't cope with the idea of there being no god, no afterlife. I don't love myself nor my individuality. I'm just a piece of organised dead matter among a lot of other dead matter, organised and disorganised, and a lot of energy. There's nothing better about me than any other collection of molecules. Sure, that's a bleak thing to say, but sadly it's the truth. If you would be honest to yourself you would realise that. But the veil of blisfull ignorance has been pulled over your eyes. The only goal I have in this life is to have as much fun as I can, as long as I can, and to make use of the talents that have been given to me, while not being ashamed of the ones that I lack. One that I certainly do not lack, is self-honesty.

You think that if there is a God He is going to steal it from you when it is He that gave it to you in the first place.

Not at all. That's just something you made up. I don't believe in a god, because I know there is no god, not because I fear the concept of there being a god. Like I said, I would love there being a god, but I cannot deceive myself to make the world seem better than it is.

Why are you here? This is a religious forum. Are you here to demand proof that God exists from a bunch of wayward religious folk? There is no proof of such things. There is only faith.

No, I am here because I enjoy discussing and debating, especially with fundamentalists (I know you're not one btw, but there hasn't been much fundie talk around here lately, so my preferences have shifted to these kinds of topics), about the topic of evolution, and the age of the earth etc...
I find it interesting to see other people's views about life, and what better place to find these than a general religious forum?

So I say to you "Go about your life and do not waste anymore time."

I say to you, be honest to yourself.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Æsahættr said:
Super Universe, before I respond in detail to your last post, can we establish something first. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:
You should only believe in the existance of something if there is evidence, in any form, of its existance.
(Notice that I did not say proof.)

We probably have different opinions on what is exactly evidence. Children are afraid of monsters who live under their beds and in their closets.

Adults might say there is no evidence and that there has never been evidence for monsters beneath the bed. The evidence is the trembling child. But you would shout at the child and demand "Where is your evidence!"

How did Jesus feed thousands with just a basket of fish and bread? I could tell you the explanation from the Urantia Book but what's the point? You would not accept it.

Why are you wasting my time? Do you think you can tempt me into disbelieving that God exists? It is not possible. It is easier for me to swallow the ocean than deny God.

This is because of the total of my life's experiences with one very dramatic event that changed me instantly. After that I began to remember things, things that were not my human life. But this event was perfectly suited for me, not you or anyone else.

You choose your own life. It might not be possible for you to believe. You may have set this rule for yourself before you joined with your human form. So go on with your life then. Of my parables there will be nothing for you. Do you think I can somehow change what even God cannot?

For true believers it is not possible to lose faith. We don't need all the answers. For me, the answers I do have just make me even more curious about the incredible universe that God created.

You posted a quote where I said once again that I do not know the specific genes that provide for a soul then you say I claim to have provided evidence? And you accuse me of babble? Even Einstein provided only theory. Darwin gave only theory. It took hundreds of years to gain any kind of acceptance whatsoever.

The soul is not a particle that takes up space in the brain. The soul is not a piece of matter.

Some energy can pass completely through us without us ever knowing it. Some energy can even change our DNA. Hmm, that must mean that there is at least some connection between certain kinds of energy and our DNA. Right? But of course that doesn't prove a thing to you.

Do you remember Terry Schiavo? Much of her brain was gone. We kept the lungs breathing and the blood flowing in her body. Machines cleaned her blood and provided food and water. But once her soul was gone, sentience went with it. What really was Terry Schiavo left long before they turned off the machines.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Opethian said:
Obviously I do not believe in the FSM, although the concept of dressing up like a pirate to stop global warming does seem tempting ;) .

The difference is that these other old books, scientific old books, are based on logic, and can be tested by logic. They are used every day to be able to do things that would fail miserably if the things written in these books were not correct. Religious books are a whole different matter. Nothing in them can be tested, it could just as well be a fictional fairy tale, nobody can say. It doesn't offer any useful information whatsoever to be able to understand how the world works. The only useful thing in it is that it gives some people morals, but most people define a set of morals for themselves without needing a book written by somebody else to guide them.

If it could be found in myself, I would've already found it. Many people who think they have found something supernatural are just deceiving themselves. There is nothing supernatural in this world, only things you do not understand and you label yourself as supernatural. I do not think I am alone because that is my desire at all, to the contrary, I would definitely want there to be a loving god, miracles, and an afterlife etc... Who wouldn't ? The problem is that I have understood that the only reason these things came to arise in people's minds is because, at first people used them to explain things they couldn't understand (they still are used in that way, but to a lesser extent), and now many people can't cope with the idea of there being no god, no afterlife. I don't love myself nor my individuality. I'm just a piece of organised dead matter among a lot of other dead matter, organised and disorganised, and a lot of energy. There's nothing better about me than any other collection of molecules. Sure, that's a bleak thing to say, but sadly it's the truth. If you would be honest to yourself you would realise that. But the veil of blisfull ignorance has been pulled over your eyes. The only goal I have in this life is to have as much fun as I can, as long as I can, and to make use of the talents that have been given to me, while not being ashamed of the ones that I lack. One that I certainly do not lack, is self-honesty.

Not at all. That's just something you made up. I don't believe in a god, because I know there is no god, not because I fear the concept of there being a god. Like I said, I would love there being a god, but I cannot deceive myself to make the world seem better than it is.

No, I am here because I enjoy discussing and debating, especially with fundamentalists (I know you're not one btw, but there hasn't been much fundie talk around here lately, so my preferences have shifted to these kinds of topics), about the topic of evolution, and the age of the earth etc...
I find it interesting to see other people's views about life, and what better place to find these than a general religious forum?

I say to you, be honest to yourself.

Most people define their own morals? Sure, but who would decide to forgive someone who has done them harm? This concept is still a thousand years ahead of us now.

Many people are doing many things but what do they have to do with me? Are you afraid that someone is going to turn you into a fool? Do athiests look upon believers as fools? Then so be it. I am a fool in your eyes. Does my life change any? My plans? My faith? You think I am so easily swayed because one man somewhere thinks I am a fool? Join the crowd. The world could be against me and I will forever remain a fool in their eyes.

Stand in the middle of a room and close your eyes for a moment, did the room go away? Does it then become possible for you to deny it was ever there? But you cannot see it? You cannot feel it except for your feet but you could be standing on anything. You could be anywhere. Then open your eyes and see that it is so, the room is just as you believed.

I cannot now deny what I know is there.

We are visually dependant. We trust our eyes more than any other sense. But we can only see so much. I cannot see cold. I know from experience that snow is cold but I cannot see it. I cannot see heat, I can see steam rising so I know it's effects but I cannot see the energy. Maybe that makes me a fool, then I am a fool.

Try not to get burned by things you cannot see.

You think I chose this, I hoped that just maybe there was a God? Absolutely not. I was extremely confidant and comfortable believing in pure science only. But someone had other things in mind.
 

Æsahættr

Active Member
Super Universe said:
We probably have different opinions on what is exactly evidence. Children are afraid of monsters who live under their beds and in their closets.
Adults might say there is no evidence and that there has never been evidence for monsters beneath the bed. The evidence is the trembling child. But you would shout at the child and demand "Where is your evidence!"

You misunderstand me, and no, there are no alternative definitions for evidence. If a child claims to have seen monsters, then that is evidence for the existance of monsters. However, monsters under the bed are another extraordinary claim. The account of one person is not enough. In addition, we have plenty of psycology that can explain why the child would think that they saw a monster. Evidence for something is different to sufficient evidence. The child who saw a monster is evidence, but not sufficient evidence, as the extremity of the claim is so strong, it goes against so many other things we hold to be true.

Super Universe said:
How did Jesus feed thousands with just a basket of fish and bread? I could tell you the explanation from the Urantia Book but what's the point? You would not accept it.

No no, please tell me the explanation. I won't promise that I'll accept it but I promise that I will not make up my mind until you tell it to me. You say that everything has a scientific explanation, even miracles in the Bible. I always love a good scientific explanation. If you give me a decent scientific explanation for the loaves and fishes story, I will no longer believe that it could not have happened, as I do now.

Super Universe said:
Why are you wasting my time? Do you think you can tempt me into disbelieving that God exists? It is not possible. It is easier for me to swallow the ocean than deny God.


I am sorry if you think that I am trying to convince you that God does not exist, that is not my intention. You made this thread, arguing that the soul exists. You made references to genes, and suggested that there was scientific evidence to back your claim up. I am challenging you to provide that evidence. I am not trying to argue that there is no soul, I am simply arguing that you have not yet shown any evidence that supports the theory that there is a soul.

Super Universe said:
You posted a quote where I said once again that I do not know the specific genes that provide for a soul then you say I claim to have provided evidence?


I would say that the following are examples of you implying that there is scientific evidence for the soul:

Super Universe said:
Certain genetics enable this ability.


Super Universe said:
There is no disagreement between God and science.


If I am wrong, please correct me. Do you or do you not claim to have scientific evidence for the existance of the soul?

Super Universe said:
Even Einstein provided only theory. Darwin gave only theory. It took hundreds of years to gain any kind of acceptance whatsoever.


Einstein:
"On a Heuristic Viewpoint Concerning the Production and Transformation of Light" showed that his theory of photons could explain the photoelectric effect----evidence
"On the Motion—Required by the Molecular Kinetic Theory of Heat—of Small Particles Suspended in a Stationary Liquid" gave statistical analysis that allowed for direct evidence of atoms for the first time
Concerning general relativity, Einstein made clear predictions about the bending of light around stars, that were confirmed in 1919

As for Dawin: his famous studies of the Galapagos Islands showed that mockingbirds, tortoises and finches were part of different species on different islands- evidence for his theories. He also showed evidence of homologies. He bred pigeons to show links between artificial selection nature, more evidence for natural selection.

Just proving a point there. Both Darwin and Einstein spent very large amounts of time providing evidence for their theories. Had they not, then those theories would never have been accepted at all, until another theorist came along who did give evidence. Don't try and pretend that you are a great theorist in the manner of Einstein and Darwin. They knew perfectly well that they could not expect anyone to listen to their theories unless they gave evidence for them. You would do well to learn the same fact.

Super Universe said:
The soul is not a particle that takes up space in the brain. The soul is not a piece of matter.


Is it then energy?

Super Universe said:
Some energy can pass completely through us without us ever knowing it. Some energy can even change our DNA. Hmm, that must mean that there is at least some connection between certain kinds of energy and our DNA. Right? But of course that doesn't prove a thing to you.


Yes, gamma radiation for example can interfere with cells (someone who knows more could tell me whether gamma radiation can actually affect dna, but that's not relevant to this discussion, I'm just curious). If this is what your evidence is based on, then let's go a little further into this. A possible connection between energy and dna does of course not prove that a certain type of energy exists. By the same logic, I could say that there is a connection between certain types of energy production and global warming, and then claim to have proved that somewhere in the world there is a power station running on cheese. However, now that we know where you're trying to go with this evidence of yours, we can at least try to be a little more specific. So you claim that the soul is energy that affects our dna. In what way does it affect our dna? Does it cause mutations, deletions? Are its effects distinguishable from the effects of other things? Make some predictions please.

 

Super Universe

Defender of God
This is the specific feeding of five thousand but it barely explains how Jesus accomplished it:
2. FEEDING THE FIVE THOUSAND
http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper152.html

This is the turning of water into wine and explains a little more detail of what happened:
Read 4. THE WEDDING AT CANA, if you don't wish to read the whole thing.
http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper137.html

There is more but it's way beyond what you would accept. It has to do with seeing things in non-space/time then causing our reality to either bring it, create it, or duplicate it here. To do it you have to know what builds our reality and you need a photographic memory so enough specific information is sent to know exactly what you are wishing for. Nothing is going to happen if you just wish for any flower to appear.

All of us are capable of this but you have to fully remember who you are. Something only one human has ever been able to do.

As far as the rest of the debate goes, we are just going around in circles. You do not have to accept anything I believe.

You say you would love to believe in God but you know inside that it is not possible without extraordinary evidence. The universe is just one huge accident to you.

It is your choice.
 

Æsahættr

Active Member
Super Universe said:
http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper137.html There is more but it's way beyond what you would accept. It has to do with seeing things in non-space/time then causing our reality to either bring it, create it, or duplicate it here. To do it you have to know what builds our reality and you need a photographic memory so enough specific information is sent to know exactly what you are wishing for. Nothing is going to happen if you just wish for any flower to appear.

All of us are capable of this but you have to fully remember who you are. Something only one human has ever been able to do.

Ok. I'll be honest here. I have already recognised about half a dozen signs of what I would call pseudoscience here. However, I will not dismiss this as pseudoscience without examining it. You think that I am simply not willing to accept what you have to say, I wish to prove otherwise. You may have to help me to understand some of this. If I find something that I think disagrees with some other part of science, then I will say so. You can then tell me whether that is because I have misunderstood it or whether there is a genuine conflict.

So...I'll start analysing what you've given me so far.

First off..."non-space/time" What is that please? How do we know that there is such a thing?

You say we can "duplicate it here" Does that mean that the conservation laws are violated?

When you say "you have to know what builds our reality" what exactly do you mean? Are you talking about the fundamental units of matter?

"you need a photographic memory so enough specific information is sent to know exactly what you are wishing for." Who or what is doing the knowing here?

How do you see things in this "non-space/time?" Does this utilise one of the senses we are already familiar with, or does it use some other one?

And also, how do you "cause" the bringing, creating etc.? Do you send some kind of force into this non-space/time? If so, what is this force and how does someone bring it about?

From the links you gave me:


"In this case, so we were taught, Michael multiplied food elements as he always does except for the elimination of the time factor and the visible life channel."

Ok, how does one multiply food elements. Is this not again another violation of the conservation laws?

What does it mean by the time factor and the visible life factor, and how does one go about eliminating them?


". And, because of the presence and association of certain universe powers and personalities, of which all those present were wholly ignorant, she was not to be disappointed."

What does it mean by a universe power? When it says personality, does it mean personality in the conventional sense, or in some other sense. If it is the conventional sense, then what links personalities to power (assuming you mean power as in energy)


"And then the Son of Man recalled the admonition of his Personalized Thought Adjuster in the hills. He recounted how the Adjuster had warned him about the inability of any power or personality to deprive him of the creator prerogative of independence of time."

What is the Personalized Thought Adjuster? What does it mean to say that he is independent of time?

"On this occasion power transformers, midwayers, and all other required personalities were assembled near the water and other necessary elements, and in the face of the expressed wish of the Universe Creator Sovereign, there was no escaping the instantaneous appearance of wine"

What are power transformers and midwayers? Why do they require the element of water to do whatever it is they do?


"But this was in no sense a miracle. No law of nature was modified, abrogated, or even transcended. Nothing happened but the abrogation of time in association with the celestial assembly of the chemical elements requisite for the elaboration of the wine."



Presumably either I have misunderstood something or the conservation laws are not in fact laws of nature.


What does it mean by the abrogation of time, and how is this associated with the elements?
Is it significant that it calls the elements a celestial assembly, or is this just decorative language?




"At Cana on this occasion the agents of the Creator made wine just as they do by the ordinary natural processes except that they did it independently of time and with the intervention of superhuman agencies in the matter of the space assembly of the necessary chemical ingredients."


What are the agents of the Creator?
If wine is a 4 dimensional thing (that is, it exists in 3 spatial dimensions and exists for some period of time", which the wine here would have to be, then how could it be created independently of time?




I hope you will have answers for all my questions.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Pseudo-science? You know what violates the laws of science as we know it? Matter. It comes from where? Oh, that's right, a big bang.

Now even though we've never seen any bang create matter for some reason we still think that all the matter in the universe comes from a single release of elements from a singularity. A what? A singularity? Doesn't this violate the laws of gravity?

The scientists inject "Just because we don't really know where it comes from doesn't mean it doesn't exist!" That's right. Base all of your laws on everything AFTER the one that matters most. The one that everything rests upon. Where the heck does matter come from? And you call my ideas pseudo-science?

Nothing goes against the true laws of the universe because that is impossible.

How do you know there is such a thing as non-space/time? You don't for another thousand or so years.

As I said, things are either brought, duplicated, or created here by manipulation of that which makes up our reality.

Fundamental units of matter? Yes that is what I'm talking about. An atom is made up of many tiny things but those things are made up of something infinitesimally smaller. And I'm not going to give that one away so easily but it's in the bible.

How do you see things in non-space/time? I don't know the specifics because I cannot manipulate the building blocks, but it seems to be some kind of remote viewing through which the person identifies or selects the general object then fine tunes the detail (need for photographic memory) in non-space/time then signals a desire for the object which then instantly appears.

Other than being born a natural medium, meditation seems to be the only way toward gaining an idea of what I'm talking about. Some who meditate see colors, some can actually travel the universe and meet personalities but no one gets to see the home of God until they've earned it.

Nothing is made from nothing, it's all just different arrangements, different thickness of the same thing, the basic building block that creates our reality. You complain about the laws of conservation being violated when your entire theory of the beginning of the universe violates it!

It takes many beings to run a universe. There are many, many types, some are time beings and some are not. They are described in the reference provided.

Does chocolate milk come from chocolate cows? Wine is an assembly of water, chemicals, and other elements. We only know how to get the final product through an aging process. But then we don't really know everything now do we?
 

Æsahættr

Active Member
Super Universe said:
Pseudo-science? You know what violates the laws of science as we know it? Matter. It comes from where? Oh, that's right, a big bang.
Now even though we've never seen any bang create matter for some reason we still think that all the matter in the universe comes from a single release of elements from a singularity. A what? A singularity? Doesn't this violate the laws of gravity?

Um, first of all, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by comparing it to a normal bang. I'm sure you are aware that it wasn't an explosion of any sort, it was an expansion. A singularity does not violate the laws of gravity. Why would it? In fact, singularities were predicted by Eintsein's theories of gravity. Neither did the Big Bang create matter. The point is that the singularity contained the entire Universe. The Big Bang is simply when the Universe expanded, and the matter started to spread out.


Super Universe said:
The scientists inject "Just because we don't really know where it comes from doesn't mean it doesn't exist!" That's right. Base all of your laws on everything AFTER the one that matters most. The one that everything rests upon. Where the heck does matter come from? And you call my ideas pseudo-science?

Where does matter come from? Matter doesn't have to come from anywhere. Matter is just energy. If you want to think of it this way, matter "comes from" energy. Also, I did not explicitly call your ideas pseudoscience. I said that I saw in them things that I recognise as signs of pseudoscience, but that I would refrain from passing judgement until I had given you a chance to explain further.


Super Universe said:
Nothing goes against the true laws of the universe because that is impossible.

You'll get no argument here.


Super Universe said:
How do you know there is such a thing as non-space/time? You don't for another thousand or so years.

Ok...so if you don't know that there is such a thing as non-space/time, doesn't that leave the entire theory looking a bit weak? If there's no non-space/time, then there's none of this bringing stuff from it, or duplicating it or whatever. Are you happy to base all your beliefs on a guess? Also, if we don't know now whether there is such a thing as non-space/time, how can you make such a definite statement as to say that we will know that it exists in a thousand years. Surely, what you mean is, in some time, say a thousand years or so, we may be able to confirm or reject this hypothesis of non-space/time. In the meantime, there is no reason to assume that it exists, is there?


Super Universe said:
As I said, things are either brought, duplicated, or created here by manipulation of that which makes up our reality.


Duplicating and creating violates the laws of physics. As for bringing, I thought you just said that we don't actually know that this other place, this non-space/time, exists. What sort of explanation is that? It was brought here from another place, one that we don't actually know exists. In addition, you haven't explained how something can be brought from the non-space/time into our Universe. You've only alluded to "really knowing yourself." That is not an explanation.


Super Universe said:
Fundamental units of matter? Yes that is what I'm talking about. An atom is made up of many tiny things but those things are made up of something infinitesimally smaller. And I'm not going to give that one away so easily but it's in the bible.


You're not going to give it away? Why? How do you expect people to take you seriously if you refuse to tell them certain parts of your theory? Perhaps we could play a guessing game. Is it smaller than quarks? Is it 1D strings or 0D point particles? The fundamental unit of matter is a very interesting topic in theoretical physics. If you know the definite answer, is it too much to ask that you enlighten us?


Super Universe said:
How do you see things in non-space/time? I don't know the specifics because I cannot manipulate the building blocks, but it seems to be some kind of remote viewing through which the person identifies or selects the general object then fine tunes the detail (need for photographic memory) in non-space/time then signals a desire for the object which then instantly appears.

Ok, so leaving aside the fact that the existance of non-space/time is simply something that you're guessing...
Remote viewing? So what sense does it use? That's not a specific detail, that's a fairly major part. If you don't know which sense is used for this "remote viewing," how can you have any sort of faith that it works. Signalling a desire for the object? So, an electrical impulse in your brain is what brings the object here? In which case that means that electrical signals can pass between here and the non-space/time? Correct? Do all desires send this signal into non-space/time, or is it only when it's someone with this ability? Either way, this is another possible way for us to test this theory, by monitoring brain activity.


Super Universe said:
Other than being born a natural medium, meditation seems to be the only way toward gaining an idea of what I'm talking about. Some who meditate see colors, some can actually travel the universe and meet personalities but no one gets to see the home of God until they've earned it.

How do you they travel across the Universe? Are you suggesting that they move faster than the speed of light? Because you know that law doesn't just apply to matter, it's information as well. So that looks like another violation of the laws of physics. And I thought you said that nothing can violate those laws? If you think that general relativity is wrong, perhaps you would care to offer some predictions that are more accurate? You will get bonus points if your soul theory is a grand unification theory.


Super Universe said:
Nothing is made from nothing, it's all just different arrangements, different thickness of the same thing, the basic building block that creates our reality. You complain about the laws of conservation being violated when your entire theory of the beginning of the universe violates it!

As I said earlier, the Big Bang does not violate the conservation laws. Matter was not created in the Big Bang.


Super Universe said:
It takes many beings to run a universe. There are many, many types, some are time beings and some are not. They are described in the reference provided.

Actually, this is a very interesting thing that I was thinking about the other day. If by time-being, you mean a being that experiences time, then yes, that is not impossible. There is no reason why a being shouldn't experience a different dimension as the time dimension to us. Since we are all 4-dimensional beings, the time dimensions for us is simply the one that we feel ourselves moving along. For example, if a cube could be conscious, it might think of itself as a 2D square. Its time dimension would be created by the sense of itself as a square moving in time, tracing out its entire 3D self.
However, there's a flaw for you I'm afraid. As far as I can see, experiencing one dimension as a time dimension is necessary for consciousness. I don't think we could describe any being as conscious if it has no sense of the passing of time.
Oh, and one other point. Why does it take many beings to run a universe? Are you an expert on running universes? Run a few in your time have you? Why is it so impossible that the universe isn't run by anything? You might not be happy with the idea that there is no-one in charge, but you can't use the statement that a boss of some sort is necessary to back up your argument, without also proving the truth of that statement.


Super Universe said:
Does chocolate milk come from chocolate cows? Wine is an assembly of water, chemicals, and other elements. We only know how to get the final product through an aging process. But then we don't really know everything now do we?

No, which is probably why you always sound so assured of all the unproven statements you make. Accepting ignorance and trying to make the best of what we've got isn't easy. Must be much more tempting just to use that knowing tone, spout whatever comes into your head, and pretend that you are in some way enlightened.
 

Opethian

Active Member
Most people define their own morals? Sure, but who would decide to forgive someone who has done them harm? This concept is still a thousand years ahead of us now.

No it's not. The only reason why I would retaliate to someone else because he/she harmed me, is to prevent this occuring in the future. This is why the feeling of hate and vengeance originated in the first place: for survival. If you would eliminate someone who agressed you, your chances of survival would be greater. But if you come to understand the true reason of this emotion instead of just acting upon it without thinking, it would be much easier to forgive. I go for primary truth instead of secondary effects.

Stand in the middle of a room and close your eyes for a moment, did the room go away? Does it then become possible for you to deny it was ever there? But you cannot see it? You cannot feel it except for your feet but you could be standing on anything. You could be anywhere. Then open your eyes and see that it is so, the room is just as you believed.

I cannot now deny what I know is there.

No, I think you cannot stop yourself from believing what you would like there to be. You want it to be, and that's the primary reason for your belief. (just what I think, an opinion)

We are visually dependant. We trust our eyes more than any other sense. But we can only see so much. I cannot see cold. I know from experience that snow is cold but I cannot see it. I cannot see heat, I can see steam rising so I know it's effects but I cannot see the energy. Maybe that makes me a fool, then I am a fool.

Heat can be scientifically tested and proven to exist. You can feel heat, and be sure that it's heat. The same thing can surely not be said about the supernatural. Things people perceive as supernatural are just physical things which they have no explanation for.

You think I chose this, I hoped that just maybe there was a God? Absolutely not. I was extremely confidant and comfortable believing in pure science only. But someone had other things in mind.

So you experienced something which you perceived as supernatural. Something very strange which you think couldn't have occured by chance probably?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Super Universe said:
Everlasting Sentient Energy. The God Fragment. The Soul.​





I posted this topic because YmirGF asked me to but honestly this is waaaay beyond what most of you will be able to accept. Take a deep breathe before you start.
I apologise for having returned to the first post, but it is difficult to enter into a debate half way through; I find it easier to answer the original OP.

All life forms of a certain state have the ability to host a soul. I do not know the exact set of genetics that allows a lifeform to host a soul. Animals can host souls but this is rare and is only done if the soul wishes to have that experience.
I am not sure why you say:
Animals can host souls but this is rare and is only done if the soul wishes to have that experience.
..is that based on something you have read ?(I just wonder why you think that it is rare for animals to host souls)
I do not believe that plants can host souls but I cannot say for sure. Certain genetics enable this ability. One day our science might just discover the specific genes that host a soul.
I am not sure either, but I don't understand your trying to link the Soul to genetics, and science. To me, there is the material(the physical) and the spiritual. why should the physical be adapted to host a soul ?......I am not sure I understand this need.
Disturbing is the realization that some humans cannot host souls. I believe the origin of this problem has something to do with the Lucifer rebellion but I would rather not go into more detail in this post. But know that this is true evil amongst us because these beings, these so called humans, have absolutely no internal controls. They have no conscience whatsoever.
I am not at all sure that some humans cannot host souls; from where comes this idea?
Add to this the many people who ignore their conscience and you have the reason for the many problems we have on the earth. The influence of your conscience will diminish if you ignore it because it is obeying your choice.
Well, we are human; we have free will, and choice. We choose to do something maladaptive, and of course, someone, something suffers, because of that act.

Animals sense a connection to the earth that we do not. This is why they know that disasters are coming before they happen but they are not sentient or aware in the same sense that humans are. Yes I know they have their own personalities but you cannot have an intelligent discussion with an animal.
you cannot have an intelligent discussion with an animal

Animals do work on a different level from ours; their senses operate on different frequencies; but to hear you say the above brings a smile to my lips (only because you imply that animals are not intelligent). I would love to talk to a dolphin (for one)

Sentient lifeforms born away from the earth sense a connection to God, they feel Him like a warm current that is ever present.
Sorry, what life forms?

The human sense of God is purposely suppressed to give humans a greater sense of independance and free will. You can smash a beetle and know that God will not interfere. And you believe that God does not even know. It is your choice. Our sense of disconnection is the greatest in all the universe.

"independance and free will" I would use choice instead of independance.
This means we are the latest and greatest new thing because God's children, whole pieces of Him, the souls, our true selves, flock here to inhabit the human form.

I agree, if you remove the "greatest new thing"....I think Vanity is one of man's biggest drawbacks

Through us they and God experience life as a material being. Let me say that again, God experiences LIFE as a material being. God is endless sentient energy. What does He know of living a mortal life where you can grow and evolve from a lowly child to a wise old man and then die?
" What does He know of living a mortal life where you can grow and evolve from a lowly child to a wise old man and then die?"

Through Christ ?

What would God do if He were born a human but did not remember His true self? He might work at a restuarant or be a policeman, He might be an accountant or athlete, He might raise a family and want a new SUV.

We're back to Christ here (although Christ would have been essentially close to being God-like). We are all 'of God' but only have one way traffic from the mind to the soul.

We are not just God's children, we are God. Not this fallable, weak, fragile human
form, but us, our true self, the everlasting God fragment, the soul that resides inside this temporary host.
Agreed.

The human senses transmit information through the soul connection to God. He hears what you hear. He sees what you see. He smells the flowers and tastes freshly baked bread right along with you. God feels you touch a spouse and feels them as they touch you back. The total amount of information transmitted is... beyond imagination. The universe is small by comparison.

Souls are our true selves, the human form is temporary. We chose to come into the human form we are now in and we are acting in a complex movie where the universe is the set. We learn for seventy years or so then we move on.

This is why it is useless to blame God for our wrongs, it is God doing wrong against God. But He cannot tell His other selves to stop because He is committed to their learning in their material environment which is His way of evolving.

All life forms of a certain degree have their own unique personality. This is based on a formula. Numerology and Astrology has some of it down but their understanding is incomplete. But the good ones are pretty darned close. One even knew that I hated locks, I was amazed.

The personality is what we see as our independant self on the earth because the influence of our conscience is so slight. This personality can live any life it wishes and the soul will only be along for the ride.

But if this personality chooses to live a moral life then the soul fuses with that personality forever. If not, the unique personality and human form get one chance at a sentient life and after death the God fragment departs to find a new life experience.

Yes, so we reincarnate; that is what you are saying?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Æsahættr said:
Um, first of all, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by comparing it to a normal bang. I'm sure you are aware that it wasn't an explosion of any sort, it was an expansion. A singularity does not violate the laws of gravity. Why would it? In fact, singularities were predicted by Eintsein's theories of gravity. Neither did the Big Bang create matter. The point is that the singularity contained the entire Universe. The Big Bang is simply when the Universe expanded, and the matter started to spread out.


No, which is probably why you always sound so assured of all the unproven statements you make. Accepting ignorance and trying to make the best of what we've got isn't easy. Must be much more tempting just to use that knowing tone, spout whatever comes into your head, and pretend that you are in some way enlightened.

An expansion from a singularity that happened extremely quickly, somehow that is not an explosion? And all the matter in the universe expands from this central point with no gravity involved whatsoever? I wonder why we don't see black holes expanding this same way then?

What do you think is going to happen when we build a large space interferometer and find out that the universe is thousands of times larger than we now believe?

If matter doesn't have to come from anywhere then why the need for a big bang theory?

I know there is non-space/time. YOU don't know it and scientists won't for a thousand years, mmm, maybe 900 if your lucky. Time has to do with movement in the relativity regions of space. There are perfectly stable regions. I could tell you where it is but I won't. It's really quite logical though.

Creating does not violate the laws of physics. The universe was created by the same being who created the laws to govern it.

No, I'm not giving away the fundamental unit of matter. But I told you where to find it and I actually thought it was too much. Isn't it always better when things are earned?

This theory is not my theory. And you certainly do not have to accept it.

Meditation travels the universe faster than light?

But what are the laws of physics of another dimension? What are the laws that apply to angels? You want everything handed to you with no effort but you'll get nothing unearned. No scientist will ever discover anything new with such a closed mind. Maybe make that two thousand years before the theory of non-space/time.

This matter that expanded from the big bang (you capitalize it like it had a will of it's own), before the bang happened this matter was obviously somewhere else then wasn't it? Somewhere that gravity had no effect because then it would just clump all this matter together in one giant black hole? Sounds a lot like non-space/time to me but that's just a guess.

A non-time being only needs a memory to put passing events in the proper order. No time needed for non-time beings.

I can make any claim I wish to sir, as I've stated before "None of this is intended for you" and we are far from my goal on this thread. I'm not going to hand you the building blocks of the universe or a grand unification theory, earn it yourself. Did you think Einstein was so smart to figure out space/time on his own?

What do I have to say to a scientist? This "Scientists chase ever after a train that they hear just ahead of them, but it is only the sound of a train."

Why does it take many people to run a universe? How many does it take to run a country? How many teachers do we have? How many messengers? How many judges? How many CEO's, advisors, repairmen?

The earth rests atop a needle stacked end to end with a million needles. That is why it is impossible for the universe to exist in the way it does without beings controlling it.

Me confidant? I know absolutely, positively, without a doubt that God exists and that He created the universe. Everything else is a work in progress.

Me enlightened? Only with the answer that most matters.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Opethian said:
No it's not. The only reason why I would retaliate to someone else because he/she harmed me, is to prevent this occuring in the future. This is why the feeling of hate and vengeance originated in the first place: for survival. If you would eliminate someone who agressed you, your chances of survival would be greater. But if you come to understand the true reason of this emotion instead of just acting upon it without thinking, it would be much easier to forgive. I go for primary truth instead of secondary effects.

No, I think you cannot stop yourself from believing what you would like there to be. You want it to be, and that's the primary reason for your belief. (just what I think, an opinion)

Heat can be scientifically tested and proven to exist. You can feel heat, and be sure that it's heat. The same thing can surely not be said about the supernatural. Things people perceive as supernatural are just physical things which they have no explanation for.

So you experienced something which you perceived as supernatural. Something very strange which you think couldn't have occured by chance probably?

If the concept of forgiveness of others for harm they have caused is not a thousand years ahead of us then who practises it now? Some priests perhaps.

Why would I like there to be a God? When I didn't know Him it was easier, things made more sense. Throw in an all-powerful and all-knowing God and I couldn't understand why there was no justice? Why did God allow bad things to happen to innocent and good people?

Yes you can feel heat. The same thing is true about God. But it's not for you. So go on with your accidental life, bouncing here and there, no reason for it whatsoever.

Chance? Uh, not this. No way, no how...
 

Opethian

Active Member
If the concept of forgiveness of others for harm they have caused is not a thousand years ahead of us then who practises it now? Some priests perhaps.

I will always forgive someone if I feel that forgiving them will not cause them or me any future harm. I won't refuse forgiving someone just because of hate or grudge, only for reason.

Why would I like there to be a God? When I didn't know Him it was easier, things made more sense. Throw in an all-powerful and all-knowing God and I couldn't understand why there was no justice? Why did God allow bad things to happen to innocent and good people?

Sure, and the thought of an afterlife and the ability to become spiritually better than other people isn't attractive? Maybe you couldn't take the fact that there is no reason for your life, and you really needed there to be a reason for it. You're still deceiving yourself.

Yes you can feel heat. The same thing is true about God. But it's not for you. So go on with your accidental life, bouncing here and there, no reason for it whatsoever.

The fact is, when you feel heat, you can also prove that it is heat you feel. An experiment can be held to scientifically and mathematically prove that what you felt is actually heat. When you think you feel god, or some sort of spiritual presence, in fact you are in a thought process that has lead your body to release certain sense stimulating enzymes, and make it seem as though there is some sort of spiritual entity inside your body causing you to feel this way, while in fact, your mind, your thought process, has made you feel like this. You are deceiving yourself not only mentally but also physically.
I think that last sentence in the previous quote just goes to show why you believe. Imo, you couldn't take the fact that your life is in fact just an accident, and needed order in your life, something to be certain of, because you can't live with the randomness of reality. Why else would you make such a statement to pretend like your life is so much better than mine for this reason?

Chance? Uh, not this. No way, no how...

Well, then explain it to me? If it's personal, then try to use an anology or to abstract it so that I get the basics of what happened.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
michel said:
I apologise for having returned to the first post, but it is difficult to enter into a debate half way through; I find it easier to answer the original OP.

I am not sure why you say:
..is that based on something you have read ?(I just wonder why you think that it is rare for animals to host souls)
I am not sure either, but I don't understand your trying to link the Soul to genetics, and science. To me, there is the material(the physical) and the spiritual. why should the physical be adapted to host a soul ?......I am not sure I understand this need.
I am not at all sure that some humans cannot host souls; from where comes this idea?

Well, we are human; we have free will, and choice. We choose to do something maladaptive, and of course, someone, something suffers, because of that act.

Animals do work on a different level from ours; their senses operate on different frequencies; but to hear you say the above brings a smile to my lips (only because you imply that animals are not intelligent). I would love to talk to a dolphin (for one)

Sorry, what life forms?

"independance and free will" I would use choice instead of independance.

I agree, if you remove the "greatest new thing"....I think Vanity is one of man's biggest drawbacks

" What does He know of living a mortal life where you can grow and evolve from a lowly child to a wise old man and then die?"

Through Christ ?

We're back to Christ here (although Christ would have been essentially close to being God-like). We are all 'of God' but only have one way traffic from the mind to the soul.

Yes, so we reincarnate; that is what you are saying?

Why create humans if animals suffice?

So Michel, why should the physical be adapted to host a soul? You do not believe that humans have a soul? This need is the purpose of the universe. What person builds a garden with no flowers? No life?

Some humans cannot host souls because of the Lucifer rebellion. Many things need fixing. This is not an area where I like to go into more detail because there are conflicting theories. Even Saddam Hussein has those who take his side of the story.

It is possible for a human to make a mistake, even a terrible one. But then the harm comes from a mistake that anyone could have made.

Look up BTK or Scott Peterson. Look at what they did. Are these humans the same as you? Is it even possible for you to do what they have done? They are not the same. They denied the very thing that made them human. You think similar DNA is what makes a human but that is just similar form, same teeth, two arms, legs. If you don't see yourself as something more than this then you truly are not.

Animals are extremely intelligent. What rock seeks comfort in a cave? Feeds itself from this berry while avoiding that? But do you place their intelligence on the same level with human beings? Do you place their importance on the same level?

Dolphins may very well be the highest natural intelligence on the planet. Dolphins can temporarily 'freeze' sharks who come too near their young.

How many types of life are on this planet alone? The universe is almost infinite. There are trillions of stars and planets out there yet somehow you think it's all a waste and we are the only life God saw to create? Then in the next sentence you say "Vanity is one of man's biggest drawbacks". It surely is.

Through Christ? Michel, there is only one God, one Creator of the universe, and Jesus is His Son.

We reincarnate? Depends. If you see your true self as this human form forever, this body, then no you don't. If you see yourself as this human personality, this human attitude, an individual separate from the universe, then no you don't.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Opethian said:
I will always forgive someone if I feel that forgiving them will not cause them or me any future harm. I won't refuse forgiving someone just because of hate or grudge, only for reason.

Sure, and the thought of an afterlife and the ability to become spiritually better than other people isn't attractive? Maybe you couldn't take the fact that there is no reason for your life, and you really needed there to be a reason for it. You're still deceiving yourself.

The fact is, when you feel heat, you can also prove that it is heat you feel. An experiment can be held to scientifically and mathematically prove that what you felt is actually heat. When you think you feel god, or some sort of spiritual presence, in fact you are in a thought process that has lead your body to release certain sense stimulating enzymes, and make it seem as though there is some sort of spiritual entity inside your body causing you to feel this way, while in fact, your mind, your thought process, has made you feel like this. You are deceiving yourself not only mentally but also physically.
I think that last sentence in the previous quote just goes to show why you believe. Imo, you couldn't take the fact that your life is in fact just an accident, and needed order in your life, something to be certain of, because you can't live with the randomness of reality. Why else would you make such a statement to pretend like your life is so much better than mine for this reason?

Well, then explain it to me? If it's personal, then try to use an anology or to abstract it so that I get the basics of what happened.

The ability to become spiritually better than others? Existence is not a race even though there is a finish line. Cannot a man lead a race then falter at any point and not reach the goal?

Fine then, in your mind I am decieving myself and that will never change. So why continue to waste my time? There is no proof that can satisfy you. No faith can be given to you. Do you think I will suddenly tire of believing in God?

Your existence is surely an accident. From where you have no idea. Your conscious mind is only instinct and memory. You are alone. You truly do not need nor want anything more. You are nothing more than a stone. With a variety of incredible life all around why would I wish to waste my time with a rock?

Isn't there something you should be doing somewhere else? Tearing down buildings that people worked so hard to build because you don't agree with the curtains they hang inside? Ripping up gardens because you are allergic? Stealing candy from children because your teeth are rotten? Then go on with your life, and bother me no more.


How did I pretend that my life was better? Did I tell you of all the great possessions I have, the wonderful family, the perfect job, the lottery I've won? This is how simple people view success, isn't it? My life is what it is. I feel incredibly thankful, confused, and unworthy of the gift that I have been given because no instruction book came with it.

But this is me, what is it to you? Your life is your choice. You have your own explanation for your gifts whatever they are. So go on with it. Don't look across the road to see if the grass is greener because even if it appears to be you will just say "It's not real grass, it must be painted green."

Your facts apply to life as you know it. But what do you know of me? What shoes of mine have you ever worn?

If we are all the same, animals, then why are there Einsteins, Hitler's, and Mozart's? But don't answer please.

Instead of answering just shoo away. Go on now, go kick a dog since that is your purpose.
 

Opethian

Active Member
The ability to become spiritually better than others? Existence is not a race even though there is a finish line. Cannot a man lead a race then falter at any point and not reach the goal?

I don't quite see how this connects to the question I asked, sorry.

Fine then, in your mind I am decieving myself and that will never change. So why continue to waste my time? There is no proof that can satisfy you. No faith can be given to you. Do you think I will suddenly tire of believing in God?

No I'm just trying to have a debate about certain erroneous arguments you have used.

Your existence is surely an accident. From where you have no idea. Your conscious mind is only instinct and memory. You are alone. You truly do not need nor want anything more. You are nothing more than a stone. With a variety of incredible life all around why would I wish to waste my time with a rock?

I know where I came from up till a certain point. Maybe in the future as science progresses I may come to find out more. I don't really see how the rock analogy holds up, I'm just an atheist without belief in free will, a person with a realistic worldview. Why would that suddenly make me a stone?

Isn't there something you should be doing somewhere else? Tearing down buildings that people worked so hard to build because you don't agree with the curtains they hang inside? Ripping up gardens because you are allergic? Stealing candy from children because your teeth are rotten? Then go on with your life, and bother me no more.

Aha, the personal attack. This always happens to people that are losing a debate.

How did I pretend that my life was better? Did I tell you of all the great possessions I have, the wonderful family, the perfect job, the lottery I've won? This is how simple people view success, isn't it? My life is what it is. I feel incredibly thankful, confused, and unworthy of the gift that I have been given because no instruction book came with it.

You were quite subtle about it:
So go on with your accidental life, bouncing here and there, no reason for it whatsoever.
This sentence insinuates that your life somehow has more meaning than mine because of your belief.

But this is me, what is it to you? Your life is your choice. You have your own explanation for your gifts whatever they are. So go on with it. Don't look across the road to see if the grass is greener because even if it appears to be you will just say "It's not real grass, it must be painted green."

Again you insinuate that your life must be better because of your faith.

Your facts apply to life as you know it. But what do you know of me? What shoes of mine have you ever worn?

I know you're human just like me, and you live in the same universe as me, so considering the topic we're debating here, that's all I need to know.

If we are all the same, animals, then why are there Einsteins, Hitler's, and Mozart's? But don't answer please.

Because different animals have different traits. Do you think Einstein became Einstein or Hitler became Hitler because they chose to be? No, because they had the right/wrong genetics and the right/wrong environment and life experiences while they were growing up.

Instead of answering just shoo away. Go on now, go kick a dog since that is your purpose.

Funny that you accuse me of wanting to go kick a dog, since you're the one "shooing me away".
 

chillmode1

New Member
Super Universe said:
We truly are souls but humans have too much trouble seeing themselves as something outside the body.

This form stays here and turns to dust. It does not go to heaven with me.
i really dont see how any sane person can beleive in going to heaven. it makes me sad to know that so many people in this world are that ignorant just because you were brought up that way. i beleive man has created the soul out of fear of the unknown , and you know its really easy to beleive in something that thousands of other people already beleive in, its easy to follow to be a follower,thats what i mean. there is no heaven its like beleiving in santa claus or something , and im not just trying to be a jerk but im saying it because i want you to find the real truth and i think it would benafit you. when you do find the real truth you wont break people up in to more catagories like if they are chrstian or jewish or non this or that
 
Many have the view that the soul is immortal and separate from the body. However, the Bible provides a different understanding. Here are some Scriptures to help one to see what really the soul is. Of the soul, the Bible says that it can be "cut off" or put to death, at Leviticus 7:20, saying: "But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the Lord, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people."(King James Bible) That it can eat, for verse 25 says that "For whosoever eateth the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people", that the soul can "be afflicted" at Leviticus 16:29, that God condemns it for "eating blood" at Leviticus 17:10 and 12, that the soul can touch something "unclean" and be "unclean" itself, at Leviticus 22:6, that it can be purchased, at Leviticus 22:11, that it works and can be destroyed (not immortal), at Leviticus 23:30, that it can " pine away" at Leviticus 26:16, that animals are souls at Numbers 31:28, that it has a desire to eat at Deuteronomy 12:15 and 20, that the soul can crave for "oxen...sheep...wine" at Deuteronomy 14:26, that Joshua destroyed all the souls of Makkedah at Joshua 10:28, that it has blood at Jeremiah 2:34 and that it is not immortal, for Peter said: "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(Acts 3:23 King James Bible)
Hence, just what is the soul ? What is it that eats, that can touch something, that can be "afflicted", that can be "destroyed" ? The soul is us as a person, with all our feelings and desires, with blood flowing through our veins. Hence, at Genesis 2:7, of Adam the Scripture says that "the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (King James Bible) The apostle Paul reiterated this at 1 Corinthians 15:45, saying that "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."(King James Bible) Therefore, God did not place a soul in Adam, but rather, he "became a living soul". Before God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", Adam was a dead soul.
At Ezekiel 18:4, it says that the "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Thus, we as souls, sin, and eventually die.
The Hebrew word for soul is ne´phesh and evidently comes from a root meaning "breathe" and in a literal sense ne´phesh could be rendered as "a breather."
The word soul can also be rendered as a person's life, for Jesus said that " And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matt 10:28 King James Bible) Thus, one's future life or "soul" is dependent upon not fearing those who can "kill the body", but upon pleasing God.
 
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