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One Advantage of Secularism for Religion...

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Historically, a primary function of the major religions has been social control. Sometimes this is explicitly recognized, as in Confucianism; sometimes it is thinly masked, as in Christianity. But, so far as I can see, social control has always been one of the main reasons for religion -- at least ever since the first priest-kings of ancient Sumer.

However, it is arguable that social control is a function of religion which detracts from and distorts its more spiritual functions. If so, then wouldn't secularism be of significant benefit to religious people who are more concerned with those spiritual functions than they are with controlling other people? At least, in so far as secularism might free up religions to focus on spirituality, rather than on controlling societies?

Please discuss.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Social control is at best of questionable value to religion anyway. So yes, Secularism is a boom to religion when it goes after its most fruitful pursuits.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Historically, a primary function of the major religions has been social control. Sometimes this is explicitly recognized, as in Confucianism; sometimes it is thinly masked, as in Christianity. But, so far as I can see, social control has always been one of the main reasons for religion -- at least ever since the first priest-kings of ancient Sumer.

However, it is arguable that social control is a function of religion which detracts from and distorts its more spiritual functions. If so, then wouldn't secularism be of significant benefit to religious people who are more concerned with those spiritual functions than they are with controlling other people? At least, in so far as secularism might free up religions to focus on spirituality, rather than on controlling societies?

Please discuss.
I will point out an example in which what you're saying may very well have truth.

There was a time when the Pope was in charge of the entirety of Rome, and surrounding areas too called "the Papal States". When electing a Pope it wasn't just about appointing a spiritual leader, it was appointing a good political leader, one who could handle the temporal affairs as well as the spiritual affairs, even military affairs (see Pope Julius II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, who would lead armies into battle).

The problem with this was that sometimes, perhaps the spiritual qualities were overlooked, especially when the Papal states were in need of a good leader. The Catholic Church is known for vast amounts of corruption centuries ago and I personally think much of this can be brought down to the control of the Pope over large parts of Italy, where he was effectively a temporal King with spiritual authority over the rest of Christendom.

When the Pope renounced much of the Papal States and settled with today's Vatican City in the 1920s, there was a change of priorities when electing a Pope. The cardinals could really focus on the spiritual and theological side of things, the problems the Church as a whole was facing, not just the Papal States. (I'm not saying corruption was rampant in the Church until the 1920s, but I do think there was a shift in priorities).

With the Papacy content with Vatican city, we now had a Pope who didn't have to get bogged down with the affairs of his immediate surroundings and domain like an earthly king but could focus on taking care of his church across the world. I would say this shift led to a lot of change in the Catholic Church, notably in the form of the Second Vatican Council with its very forward-looking outlook (for that time) and even today with what we have in Pope Francis. (If the Catholic Church still held those swathes of land in Italy, I cannot imagine Francis being elected to take on those temporal and kingly roles.)
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. (Mark 12:14-17)

^This is a quote from Jesus, one of America's founding fathers who supported separation of the church and state. :p
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I'm very much for secular government and laws fully known to be man-made - with the idea they should be adjusted, removed, etc. as societies and the world around them evolve.

Government, laws, regs, etc. should be to serve the people and not the other way around. The people come first, not piously obeying divine mandates and suffering ill-fit rules for the sake of a future life.

Obviously a secular government can have the religious government issues in the same way if authority is put on too high of a pedestal and questioning/change is "sinful"
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Historically, a primary function of the major religions has been social control..............

However, it is arguable that social control is a function of religion which detracts from and distorts its more spiritual functions. If so, then wouldn't secularism be of significant benefit to religious people who are more concerned with those spiritual functions than they are with controlling other people? At least, in so far as secularism might free up religions to focus on spirituality, rather than on controlling societies?

Please discuss.
Peace be on you.
Holy Quran tells the main purpose as:
[2:22] O ye people, worship your Lord Who created you and those who were before you, that you may become righteous;
Righteousness-----> Spirituality


But problem starts when:
[9:34] O ye who believe! surely, many of the priests and monks devour the wealth of men by false means and turn men away from the way of Allah. And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah — give to them the tidings of a painful punishment,
Taking wealth------->By controlling societies.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well, wouldn't any cultural value applied on a legal level be a form of social control, including secularism?

I'm not saying that's a bad thing; in order for any civilization to work, a degree of social control is pretty much necessary just to keep things even remotely stable. In that regard, I'd say yes: secularism would be a fantastic replacement for organized state-religions, allowing religious and cultural pluralism to exist without the absolutism that comes with being entangled with government.
 
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