Protecting the welfare state

jonny said:

We have plenty of space and resources to go around. Also, opportunities are limitless. I don't think our economy would have a hard time handling more people and eventually immigration would slow down, just like it did with Europe.

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Actually immigration without assimilation in killing europe. In France, there are certain Muslim ghettos that french police dont even dare go into anymore. French culture as previously known, will be all but gone in 25 years. (not such a bad thing I admit.) Unfortunately a majority of illegal aliens from Mexico are not interested in assimilating to American culture. In fact, a recent poll shows 58% of the citizens polled in Mexico believe that the south west portion of the USA is rightfully property of Mexico http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/12/142927.shtml

I think increasing legal immigration is a necessary reform, but just ignoring illegal aliens, and continuing to let them expand Mexico into the south west is a bad idea.

I personally am willing to pay the price of inflation to level the playing field for all workers, and employers. Maybe rising inflation will actually force our country to realize how our social welfare programs are bankrupting this country financially and motivationally.

Also, I don't blame them for hating America. How much do you like the kid in class who thinks he's better than everyone else?

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But America is better than Mexico. Thats why they come here. If my house is better than yours, hate me all you want. But dont break in when Im on vacation, refuse to leave, and complain my house is not nice enough!

kevmicsmi said:

But America is better than Mexico. Thats why they come here. If my house is better than yours, hate me all you want. But dont break in when Im on vacation, refuse to leave, and complain my house is not nice enough!

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Well said; so why do we let them?

we let them in because the government makes millions apon billions off of them paying taxes and not being able to file a tax return. we let them in because they do jobs that americans feel are beneith them.why should they have to assimilate? we didn't assimilate when we arived now did we. if we did, we would be living in makeshift housing and living off the land like the real americans (natives) traditionally did. you konw lets not forget we are after all invaders living on stolen land so who are we to judge and complain when some non whites come here to live and work? lets face it, if we come across a immagrant from england we think it is fine and dandy, but god forbid if they come from mexico or yemen. then the next thing that comes out of the mouths of you racists is those foreginers are living here tax free! they refuse to live immoraly like me! my property taxes are going to go down because those brown foreginers! they are going to corrupt my children! or my favorate, they are going to do a terrorist attack and take away my job! as far as social welfare is concerned. the vast majority of reciever of any type of government assistance is born and raised americans. infact you cannot collect section 8, foodstamps, cash assistance of any kind if you are not a legal resident of the u.s. the only two things that a illegal and and for the most part a legal immagrant can get is medicade and wic, and this is ONLY for pregnant women and children.social welfare was never set up for immagrants and we can take social security for the example here. if you came to this county and gained legal status citizen or simply resident and worked your but off, retired and decided to move back to your homeland, the money will not follow you. you have to live here in the states to collect the money. the way i see it, if you work here and pay taxes, than you have earned the right to collect the money you paid into these social welfare systems.

We're filthy rich, and we're going to take them on. We can afford to, and it's the decent thing to do. If anyone can think of any objection to doing so, please speak and be scorned. Reveal to us how mixed-up your priorities are.

Oh, and, curiously, the so-called natives were themselves once conquerers of a pre-existing people, according to some theories.

jonny said:

Does anyone know the history behind the crackdown on immigration? It seems to me that it happened in the 1940s or so - about the same time the U.S. started creating its welfare state. Are we excluding people from the American dream because our government has created a system where we can't afford to pay for people? Does anyone know why there was a push to limit immigration?

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Well if you're a conservative like me then you are completely upset at those people who believe that the Gov't should "pay for people" as you've put it. I don't believe the Gov't needs to take care of my every need from crib to grave. I am not a dependent person, I don't want the Gov't paving my way in life everywhere I go.

There damn well better be a limit to immigration. America should NOT [despite what liberals desire] be an open door for anyone who thinks their own country sucks.

jonny said:

This entire immigration debate pisses me off (to put it lightly). When my ancestors came here 100 years ago, they didn't have to worry about green cards. America was founded as a refuge for people who wanted a better life. I think that we are screwing up exactly what has made America successful in the past by drastically limiting the new blood that we let into this country.

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You're acting like we frown upon immigrants. I think the issue as of late revolves around "illegal" immigrants. You welcome people into your country who don't give a good *** damn about the laws?

jonny said:

Yesterday we met two Mexican families while fishing. They were here illegally. They were working to support their families and paying U.S. taxes. The mother started crying when my roommate asked her what she thought about the entire immigration debate. The thought of returning to Mexico devestated her.

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How did you know they were here illegally? Paying U.S. taxes is only part of the issue. The only reason they are paying U.S. taxes is because we have corrupt businesses that are paying illegals to work due to low wages. On top of that, we have bankers willing to give loans to illegals...you see...following rules and laws has become optional in America.

jonny said:

I'm embarassed that America's superiority complex has created the problems that we are experiencing today. I don't think we're too good for anyone who is willing to come here and work hard to make a better life for themselves.

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I'm embarrassed every time a liberal American says things like this. Have you bothered to look up the statistics regarding the LAPD and illegals...it's quite eye opening. I'm sick of my tax dollars paying for every need/want illegals can dream of.

I went to an ATM machine today and it asked me if I wanted my transaction in English or Spanish....folks I live in fricken PA! English, as far as I can remember, is the native language of the U.S.

jonny said:

I guess my point is that any changes in immigration policy need to be accompanied by changes in the welfare policy so that America attracts people who want to WORK and CONTRIBUTE to the economy - regardless of their current conditions.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"
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I'd like a huge change in welfare.....like um......get rid of it. I don't mind people coming to America LEGALLY, who have something to offer society and who are willing to obey the laws.

jonny said:

Yeah, when I was doing research I noticed that the pathetic history of discrimination and racism in the U.S. extended fairly extensively to immigration.

Does anyone know the motivation behind the laws that we have now? They are much more limiting than the laws we had in the past.

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Racism and descrimination is not unique to America. Laws do change as time goes on and this is because society changes. What was a problem in 1940 may not be so in 2006 and vice versa.

we didn't assimilate when we arived now did we. if we did, we would be living in makeshift housing and living off the land like the real americans (natives) traditionally did.

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Why would you want to live in makeshift housing or live off the land when there is a better, more efficient alternative?

Dear Mr. Ciscokid,

I'm not a liberal. In the last two elections I vote for zero (0) democrats. In fact, I went down the ballot punching out every hole next to the letter "R." I'll admit that I've got serious issues with the republican party, but they are dwarfed by the issues that I have with the democratic party. At this point, unless someone gives me a really good reason, I probably won't be voting for either party in the near future.

I consider myself an open-minded conservative who doesn't give a damn about what either party says or does. They are all looking out for their own self interest and could care less about me. I care about people, not politics. I care about how the US gov't and business treat people and right now we are taking advantage of those who are less priviledged than we are.

Any real conservative should care about free markets. I consider the free movement of labor as being a part of a free market economy. Do you know what I hate? People who consider themselves conservative because they hate abortion and gay people. Social conservatism, while important, is far less important that fiscal conservatism. George Bush and the republican party must have missed that memo because today's Republican Party is FAR from being fiscal conservatives. Many "conservatives" are so ignorant of economics that they don't know where to start.

I might not have made my point very clear. I don't think that any able-bodied person in the country should get a penny of welfare money without returning equal service to this country. I don't care if that means they are standing in a crosswalk helping kids cross the street to earn their welfare check, but I think they should be earning it. At the same time, I think that able Americans need to proactively help these people so that the gov't doesn't feel like it needs to step in. The problem with our welfare system isn't the people who are on it. The problem is that too many people are bad neighbors. Welfare hasn't really been a huge problem since the reforms in the 1990s anyway. It's just a soapbox that "conservatives" like to get on still.

I don't think we need to open the flood gates and let everyone in unchecked, but I believe that the current laws and restrictions are LIBERAL laws. Free markets don't operate like the US gov't is operating its immigration policies. Our current immigration laws don't help our economy - they make it more stagnant.

How did you know they were here illegally?

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We asked them. They said that there is nothing that the police can do about it here anyway. Did you know that police officers are not allowed to find out if someone is here legally or not because it is out of their jurisdiction?

I'd like a huge change in welfare.....like um......get rid of it. I don't mind people coming to America LEGALLY, who have something to offer society and who are willing to obey the laws.

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Keep this in mind next time you're speeding down the highway over the speed limit. Come on, you know everyone does it.

I agree that people should be willing to obey the laws. But sometimes (rarely) the problem is the law, not the person breaking it. In my opinion, the problem is the law in this case.

kevmicsmi said:

Thats a pretty broad generalization is it not?

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Broad and accurate. In my town in the last few months we have lost three fairly large industries because their owners want to move them to foreign countries. These are strong profitable undustries. And they employ together almost a thousand American citizens. There is no reason at all for them to close and move but the outright greed of theor owners. Yet the damage that the loss of these jobs will do to hundreds of families in this community is significant.

And this is happening every day in communities all over America. And there is no reason for it but greed.

PureX said:

Broad and accurate. In my town in the last few months we have lost three fairly large industries because their owners want to move them to foreign countries. These are strong profitable undustries. And they employ together almost a thousand American citizens. There is no reason at all for them to close and move but the outright greed of theor owners. Yet the damage that the loss of these jobs will do to hundreds of families in this community is significant.

And this is happening every day in communities all over America. And there is no reason for it but greed.

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The US economy is developing and advancing. Service-oriented jobs replacing manufacturing is a sign of an advanced and developing economy. Those who are still in manufacturing better move with the economy or they will be left behind.

jonny said:

Service-oriented jobs replacing manufacturing is a sign of an advanced and developing economy.

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Boy, you have really lost your mind!

Please explain to me how forcing a man making a good enough wage to feed his family, and doing a complex highly skilled technical job, losing that job to work for half it's wage waiting tables is advancing and developing our economy? All that's going on in America is that the wealthy business owners and investors are getting very rich by moving their factories out of the country, while the people who used to work in those factories are becoming poor working as their servants. And even as this is a path to economic collapse and social revolution, we also become a nation that does not and can not produce it's own necessary goods, anymore. We are being divided against ourselves culturally and economically, and becoming dependant upon other nations for our essential goods. How on Earth do you see this as any kind of advance?

jonny said:

Those who are still in manufacturing better move with the economy or they will be left behind.

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Yes, because God forbid we should allow their well-being to stand in front of the profits of the rich!

"Service" isn't just waiting tables. Service includes doctors, lawyers, teachers, tourism, etc. Read about it for yourself: http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm.

How many of the men and women who lost their factory jobs in my town are going to become doctors or lawyers do you think? I'll tell you - not one single one of a thousand of them will. How many of them will find a job in the service sector that pays equal or better than the jobs they had, do you think? I'll tell you that very few of them will. Most of them will take an economic hit that will effect them and their families for the rest of their lives. Most of them will end up working two service jobs and still be lucky to make what they were making in their industrial jobs. And still America will not be able to produce it's own necessary goods.