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If a gay or lesbien want to back normal?
- Thread starter Godobeyer
- Start date
MD
qualiaphile
If my wife was a lesbian and didn't tell me, I'd be really mad at her for not having the courage to come out, I'd be mad at her family for lying and I'd be mad at the culture which forced our marriage to happen. However once I've cooled down, as long as she gave me an amicable divorce, I would wish her well and probably even be her friend.
What if we lived in a world where homosexuality had evolved to become the way we passed genes? What if you loved a woman in such a world, and all these scriptures said it was wrong? What would you do? Would you follow these scriptures or would you love a woman? As a straight man I know my attraction to women is such an intrinsic part of me that i don't think I could live in such a world.
Some sources explaining the ineffectiveness and lack of a scientific basis for attempts to change a person's sexual orientation are cited in this Wikipedia article:
Sexual orientation change efforts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I hope this helps.
Sexual orientation change efforts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I hope this helps.
You know that gay people would still be born, right?
First of all. The Medical/Scientific community mostly reject Conversion Therapy and consider it unscientific, unethical, dangerous, detrimental and ultimately pointless. Based more on religious belief rather than scientific data. Secondly, the way that Conversion Therapy groups define sexual orientation DOES NOT fit with established Scientific Definitions. As they focus far more on behavior rather than you know ACTUAL sexual orientation. Thirdly your "higher risks" link outright says in the first bloody line "Discrimination may contribute to the higher risk." Which means the higher risks for gay people may come from people like YOU who destroy their self worth at every turn, tell them constantly that they are abhorrent and force them into questionable "Therapy" all under the guise of "fixing" abnormality/religious sin/insert crappy self justification here. In future, you might want to properly read your links first before posting them to support your position. Just a bit of friendly advice.
And finally, who the hell cares if something is "not normal" or not frequent?No one is normal and everyone is. I mean to say, everyone is different, thereby not fitting into "frequent/normalcy" but everyone who is of sound mind is normal.
If someone who was gay wanted to be heterosexual I would suggest they go get help over their clear lack of self esteem and confidence. But if they are dead set on it, then one can only warn them of the possible BAD health side effects that may come with conversion therapy. For example woeful amount of self esteem/self worth/confidence, depression, anxiety, mental and physical anguish, suicidal tendencies the list goes on and on. Not to mention all the marriages and children's lives such "therapy" has destroyed along the way by forcing people to lie to God and themselves about who they truly are. Only for them to be miserable or break free and go find a far more satisfying relationship, ending their forced sham marriage in divorce. Oh you forgot to mention that, I see? Ooops!
Finally since you seem to constantly imply that people are just "becoming" gay or straight, a quote from the trippy as hell irreverent Mighty Boosh with regards to how gay people are. "You can't just go gay, it's not like buying a ladder."
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maggie2
Active Member
You're kidding me, right? Do you really believe for one minute that you can change a gay man to a heterosexual one? Yes, there are quacks who say you can but the research shows that this just isn't true, so that argument is moot.
Furthermore, and most importantly, homosexuals are already normal. Did you decide to be a heterosexual? Of course not. And homosexuals and bisexuals did not choose to be gay or bisexual either. It's who they are and they are already normal.
What consenting adults do in their own homes is none of our business. Instead of whining about homosexuals how about you go spend some time trying to figure out how to feed the hungry? Give it a rest already. This topic has been beaten around the bush millions of times already. So here's my question for you: How do you solve world hunger?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
If we love a male or female, of whatever sex it doesn't matter, if its love then let nothing or anyone stand in your way.
Conversion therapy has been proven to be detrimental and not helpful in any way or shape statistically for a homosexual person.
5 Things You Should Know About Gay Conversion Therapy
And the "higher risk" of mental problems, for homosexuals comes from the societal shaming. blaming, and bashing that is done to them. Not because of some underlying link between sexuality and mental disorders.
New data on lesbian, gay and bisexual mental health
Revasser
Terrible Dancer
It's probably possible to develop yourself a fetish for the opposite sex even if you are not naturally inclined that way. The same way that you could probably develop yourself a fetish for whips and chains or household appliances or something.
You could even probably do this consciously if you really set your mind to it.
That said, it's doubtful the natural inclination toward ones own sex would diminish, one would simply have an additional fetish for sexual interaction with the the other sex. Also doubtful that any meaningful romantic relationship is likely to emerge from that and to attempt it would likely lead to pain and recrimination for everybody involved.
Wouldn't recommend.
You could even probably do this consciously if you really set your mind to it.
That said, it's doubtful the natural inclination toward ones own sex would diminish, one would simply have an additional fetish for sexual interaction with the the other sex. Also doubtful that any meaningful romantic relationship is likely to emerge from that and to attempt it would likely lead to pain and recrimination for everybody involved.
Wouldn't recommend.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Rejection by religion - does not mean it isn't normal.
It is normal, and the percentage has pretty much stayed the same over the generations.
*
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Why would a man attracted to men, want to be interested in women?
I know a gay man that did the church thing, - married a woman, - had two kids, - then could live the lie no longer.
SO - we have a broken marriage, and two fatherless children, - because the wife is angry and still in the church -
ALL because the church tried to pray the gay out of a man! How stupid!
People are what they are, - and they have a right to be!
*
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Gender identity is not binary. Like most other things I've seen, it's a 4-dimensional scale. There are people who lack a gender identity at all: neither man nor woman. I know one such person, a very dear friend of mine.
Sex changes aren't always an option. They're not really exact, anyway.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
My reading of modern thought in this regard indicates that it seems gender and sexual orientation are seen as a continuum nowadays, as opposed to a polarity. Seems to reflect what I have observed. People are diverse, and the traditional labels become increasingly irrelevant.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
These things are not a choice.........
A Gay person Does not chose to be Gay...They are Gay.
Nothing will change that fact.
Some Gay people enjoy both hetrosexual and Homosexual relationships.
Neither medication nor Psychiatry nor religion can change this. They never change.
It is their nature.
I'm bisexual and left-handed. I also have an online friend who is trans-gender.
The scientific investigation of sexuality is extremely limited because it remains largely taboo. Freud was a pioneer in understanding Sexuality, though still from a Conservative position in which sexual instinct is sublimianated to achieve cultural goals. Wilhelm Reich was a Freudian psychoanalyst, with Marxist leanings, whose ideas on sex were influential on the Sexual Revolution of the 1960's. Dr. Alfred Kinsey did a survey on adult sexual behavior and found that sexual orientation is not subject to strong lines of demarcation (i.e. Hetrosexual, Bisexual or Homosexual). Rather it is a scale of sexual orientation with degrees of attraction between same sex and different sex partners.
The underlying assumptions behind the concept of hetrosexual, bisexual ad homosexual is not whether a person experiences attraction (as some people who identify as hetrosexual will have same sex attraction and experiences in their lifetime). It is mainly down to the predisposition of which gender a person will likely marry. This may still cause problems as marriage could well be a form of sexual repression.
On the issue of gender identity; whilst a person may be male or female biologically, the way a person identifies as male or female is psychological or "social constructs". It should also be noted that biological gender is not binary either, as there is at least a "third gender", but there are many gradations in between male and female (this is not an area I know well, so my apologies). To a greater or lesser extent, the gender roles and concepts of masculinity and femininity do not reflect underlying biological differences, but economic ones arising from the division of labour of the family.
My dad recalls how in his day, people who were left-handed were stigmatized and forced to write with their right hand. This caused psychological problems (such as stuttering) because the Brain is wired up somewhat differently in left-handed people. In someways I suffered from a stigma for being left-handed as because I was expected to write in pen, and from left to right; but my hand would often go over the text I was writing and smudge it, so my teachers often struggled to read my writing.
Now, I generally use pencil as it doesn't have this draw back and with some practice, my handwriting has improved. (but it's not what it's "supposed" to be and is a compromise between joining up letters or leaving spaces). I'm not lazy, it's just the culture is "rigged" and I'm a round peg in a square hole. I often have moments when I think, "why can't I do this; oh, wait- it's supposed to be the other way because it's for right-handed people" (e.g screw drivers, scissors etc). it took me quite a while to learn how to tie shoes laces and I think that was another 'right-handed' thing (because of which way you're supposed to tie the laces is reversed). When I set the table, my parents will occasionally remind me I have to set my knife and fork the 'other' way for them because I'm using the fork with my left-hand. I honestly don't know if it's supposed to be the other way or not actually- as it's just what I do.
[edit: door knobs confuse me as I keep turning them the "wrong" way].
The conception of "normal" is a primarily authoritarian means of social control and standardization so that human behavior can be morally regulated and more predictable for the powers that be. Both my Trans-Gender freind and I (as a bisexual) suffer from psychological problems such as depression, anxiety etc, because what is considered "moral" is contrary to our human nature and we have both been brought up in a society that expects us to behave in a way that is alien to our psychological predispositions. This is often largely under the radar and is not obvious, so you should not feel ashamed if it sounds a bit alien as society expects us to fit in because it reduces conflict. but there are some people who therefore suffer conflict because they're not "normal". I'm not sure whether any of these is genetic or acquired, but either way- changing it would do immense harm if I tried to change it.
The scientific investigation of sexuality is extremely limited because it remains largely taboo. Freud was a pioneer in understanding Sexuality, though still from a Conservative position in which sexual instinct is sublimianated to achieve cultural goals. Wilhelm Reich was a Freudian psychoanalyst, with Marxist leanings, whose ideas on sex were influential on the Sexual Revolution of the 1960's. Dr. Alfred Kinsey did a survey on adult sexual behavior and found that sexual orientation is not subject to strong lines of demarcation (i.e. Hetrosexual, Bisexual or Homosexual). Rather it is a scale of sexual orientation with degrees of attraction between same sex and different sex partners.
The underlying assumptions behind the concept of hetrosexual, bisexual ad homosexual is not whether a person experiences attraction (as some people who identify as hetrosexual will have same sex attraction and experiences in their lifetime). It is mainly down to the predisposition of which gender a person will likely marry. This may still cause problems as marriage could well be a form of sexual repression.
On the issue of gender identity; whilst a person may be male or female biologically, the way a person identifies as male or female is psychological or "social constructs". It should also be noted that biological gender is not binary either, as there is at least a "third gender", but there are many gradations in between male and female (this is not an area I know well, so my apologies). To a greater or lesser extent, the gender roles and concepts of masculinity and femininity do not reflect underlying biological differences, but economic ones arising from the division of labour of the family.
My dad recalls how in his day, people who were left-handed were stigmatized and forced to write with their right hand. This caused psychological problems (such as stuttering) because the Brain is wired up somewhat differently in left-handed people. In someways I suffered from a stigma for being left-handed as because I was expected to write in pen, and from left to right; but my hand would often go over the text I was writing and smudge it, so my teachers often struggled to read my writing.
Now, I generally use pencil as it doesn't have this draw back and with some practice, my handwriting has improved. (but it's not what it's "supposed" to be and is a compromise between joining up letters or leaving spaces). I'm not lazy, it's just the culture is "rigged" and I'm a round peg in a square hole. I often have moments when I think, "why can't I do this; oh, wait- it's supposed to be the other way because it's for right-handed people" (e.g screw drivers, scissors etc). it took me quite a while to learn how to tie shoes laces and I think that was another 'right-handed' thing (because of which way you're supposed to tie the laces is reversed). When I set the table, my parents will occasionally remind me I have to set my knife and fork the 'other' way for them because I'm using the fork with my left-hand. I honestly don't know if it's supposed to be the other way or not actually- as it's just what I do.
[edit: door knobs confuse me as I keep turning them the "wrong" way].
The conception of "normal" is a primarily authoritarian means of social control and standardization so that human behavior can be morally regulated and more predictable for the powers that be. Both my Trans-Gender freind and I (as a bisexual) suffer from psychological problems such as depression, anxiety etc, because what is considered "moral" is contrary to our human nature and we have both been brought up in a society that expects us to behave in a way that is alien to our psychological predispositions. This is often largely under the radar and is not obvious, so you should not feel ashamed if it sounds a bit alien as society expects us to fit in because it reduces conflict. but there are some people who therefore suffer conflict because they're not "normal". I'm not sure whether any of these is genetic or acquired, but either way- changing it would do immense harm if I tried to change it.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Left handedness Is a separate issue.
As a boy I had no concept of left or right Handedness. I was completely ambidextrous.
Like all Boys of the time I was encouraged to do things the right handed way, To the extent that it became "normal" for me.
Today After 80 Years I can still do some things quite naturally left or right handed. In wood work and most crafts I use which ever hand is more convenient and easy.
If you learn a skill with one hand, that does not mean that the other hand becomes equally skilled, as muscle memory comes into play.
Godobeyer, don't lend those tales respectability. They have none of their own, and they cause enormous suffering.