Something to get across in Islam.

In short
The death of the apostate from Islam is murder
Apostasy war
Caused by the recoil of Islam
There are verses from the Koran refers to the death of murder

Theweirdtophat said:

the Torah and New Testament never had violent messed up stuff, right?

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apophenia said:

They are full of messed up stuff.

Stuff that intelligent people long ago rejected.

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Theweirdtophat said:

Why is it that people will overlook those messed up passages in those books, but in the Quran, people pay so much attention to that and give flak to Muslims

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apophenia said:

The western christian-based world rejected all that rubbish.

Now we are asking muslims to do the same.

But they are much more recalcitrant - because their conditioning process is so powerful.

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Theweirdtophat,

You did not reply to this.

My answer is clear and relevant.

What is your response ?

apophenia said:

The western christian-based world rejected all that rubbish.

Now we are asking muslims to do the same.

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It's not rubbish! You might think it so, but I do not..

Is communism rubbish? .. is capitalism rubbish? .. is democracy rubbish?

You have to read scripture in context in order to understand it. If somebody wants to make a bomb, they will make it, whatever religion they happen to be (if any)

Almighty God does NOT like those who start aggression, but Muslims have been ordered to defend themselves..
If Muslims start agression, they are wrong .. Almighty God does not like it; He enjoins peace. The problem is with people and their greed/weaknesses.

TashaN said:

The same can be said about any system which is being abused. You need to separate between Islam and the action of some individual Muslims, or some corrupted politicians who want to use Islam for their means.

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I agree that any system can be abused. But Islam tends to go hand-in-hand with abusive governments. Is there a modern Muslim majority country that you'd say is a model of what a good Islamic society should look like?

muhammad_isa said:

It's not rubbish! You might think it so, but I do not..

Is communism rubbish? .. is capitalism rubbish? .. is democracy rubbish?

You have to read scripture in context in order to understand it. If somebody wants to make a bomb, they will make it, whatever religion they happen to be (if any)

Almighty God does NOT like those who start aggression, but Muslims have been ordered to defend themselves..
If Muslims start agression, they are wrong .. Almighty God does not like it; He enjoins peace. The problem is with people and their greed/weaknesses.

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And the other problem is that Islam is so darned easy for greedy/weak people to get violent and intolerant messages from. If you know the life of Muhammad and you look at how ISIS often behaves, you can see that they are mimicking Muhammad with great precision. This is a real problem.

icehorse said:

I agree that any system can be abused. But Islam tends to go hand-in-hand with abusive governments..

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I agree with you .. that is because we are in the 'final era' approaching 'the last days' ..

satan doesn't bother with people/nations who are already astray, he leaves them to destroy themselves (in time) .. but when it comes to Muslims, he is very busy causing division

However, the light of Allah cannot be put out!

icehorse said:

I agree that any system can be abused. But Islam tends to go hand-in-hand with abusive governments. Is there a modern Muslim majority country that you'd say is a model of what a good Islamic society should look like?

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Well, there is no model today for what i would believe to be the perfect model. Some countries are trying though like Turkey and Malaysia.

I don't dream of a perfect islamic state or Islamic Caliph because i'm not delusional. They don't necessary have to exist. I believe that any current state can achieve reform in order to be a better islamic model in the future.

Nations rise and fall. This is not a high time for Muslims i admit, in the same way other nations struggled in the past.

Nevertheless, the brave moderate Muslim men and women are working to be better Muslims and better humans. We need to wake up and follow the Quran and Sunnah because we are not doing so properly today.

There is no *perfect system*. I don't believe in utopia. I believe that human beings whether Muslims or not are capable of making mistakes, and also capable of achieving greatness.

icehorse said:

And the other problem is that Islam is so darned easy for greedy/weak people to get violent and intolerant messages from. If you know the life of Muhammad and you look at how ISIS often behaves, you can see that they are mimicking Muhammad with great precision. This is a real problem.

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Any scripture and any system can be easily abused, not only Islam.

TashaN said:

Any scripture and any system can be easily abused, not only Islam.

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I disagree that all systems are equally abuse-able. While I agree that secular societies have many problems, they are better than theocracies.

apophenia said:

Theweirdtophat,

You did not reply to this.

My answer is clear and relevant.

What is your response ?

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Not all of the Christians have rejected that. Muslims have but there some that have very little choice on the matter. You have to think it from their point of view and understand why there are a lot that are conditioned to do radical things. A lot of these radicals do bad things but there's always a reason behind it.

There's a lot of Muslims in the middle east that are poor and some in the smaller areas, there are some that are illiterate and only hear passages from the Quran from a Mullah who has their own agenda. Some websites over there are censored so they don't always have a wide perspective. Much like in North Korea where they believe what they are doing is right because they have no other connections and there's so no way they can get other information. If they did, they'd be more informed and more likely to rebel.

Not to mention not all Muslims have the same beliefs or goals. Wahhabism is totally different from Sufism. You act as if because they are all Muslims, they all must have the same beliefs, which is not true. This also applies to Christians, Buddhists even Druids and Heathens.

So when you're a Muslim and have no access to information outside of mullah's who quote negative passages of the Quran and use it to justify radicalism, what do you expect to happen? But of course there's lot of Muslims that aren't like that and many do condemn such actions. Just because it's not reported in the news, doesn't mean it didn't happen. You'd be surprised how many events or speeches start and don't even get reported.

icehorse said:

I disagree that all systems are equally abuse-able. While I agree that secular societies have many problems, they are better than theocracies.

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Please don't put words into my mouth. Did i say they are equally able to be abused? Read again please.

And by the way, Islam is against theocracies. It's a shura system.

TashaN said:

Please don't put words into my mouth. Did i say they are equally able to be abused? Read again please.

And by the way, Islam is against theocracies. It's a shura system.

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TashaN - I really try to avoid making strawmen. I honestly thought that's what you were implying - sorry.

As for theocracy, maybe we're just defining it differently, but I thought the idea of Sharia was to create theocracies. Here's a definition of theocracy:

Theocracy is a form of government in which clergy have official recognition as the civil ruler[citation needed] and official policy is either governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group.

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- wikipedia

I believe the only kind of apostasy that is punishable by death is the one that wages war against Allah and his messenger pbuh in words and deeds.


The peaceful apostate is not to be killed.
Once apostate left Madina. The prophet pbuh didnt order the companions to catch the apostate and cutt off his neck. He didnt do that all. Prophet pbuh said: “Medina is like a furnace; it expels its impurities and collects what is pure.” Source: Sahih Bukhari.


As for the apostate that wages war/uprising against Allah and his messenger in words or in deeds, the punishment is indeed death.

What iam saying is more in line with Quran and Hadiths.
But to kill all apostates without distinction between Peaceful apostasy and warlike apostasy is very wrong.

Also another apostate left islam in Ethiopia. He was member of the companions that went to Ethiopia. Prophet pbuh didnt ask the king to hand him over for execution.

Hypocrites are infact apostates. The prophet PBUH knew they were disbelievers in secret. He didnt kill them.

TashaN said:

And by the way, Islam is against theocracies. It's a shura system.

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That is not what I get from Muslims. Do you even know what a theocracy is?

"Waging war with words", now there's an interesting idea.

Servant_of_the_One said:

I believe the only kind of apostasy that is punishable by death is the one that wages war against Allah and his messenger pbuh in words and deeds.

The peaceful apostate is not to be killed.
Once apostate left Madina. The prophet pbuh didnt order the companions to catch the apostate and cutt off his neck. He didnt do that all. Prophet pbuh said: “Medina is like a furnace; it expels its impurities and collects what is pure.” Source: Sahih Bukhari.


As for the apostate that wages war/uprising against Allah and his messenger in words or in deeds, the punishment is indeed death.

What iam saying is more in line with Quran and Hadiths.
But to kill all apostates without distinction between Peaceful apostasy and warlike apostasy is very wrong.

Also another apostate left islam in Ethiopia. He was member of the companions that went to Ethiopia. Prophet pbuh didnt ask the king to hand him over for execution.

Hypocrites are infact apostates. The prophet PBUH knew they were disbelievers in secret. He didnt kill them.

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"Waging war with words", now there's an interesting idea. Are critical cartoons and novels an example of waging war with words?

icehorse said:

"Waging war with words", now there's an interesting idea.


"Waging war with words", now there's an interesting idea. Are critical cartoons and novels an example of waging war with words?

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I was talking about warlike(in words and deeds) apostate within a islamic country.

Not cartoonists.


I would have no problems with penalty of death for all kinds of apostasy If that was mentioned in Quran and Sunnah but the truth is that Quran and Hadith mentions only one kind of apostasy: the warlike kind.


The Messenger of Allah said: ‘The blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god but God and that I am his Messenger is not lawful except in one of three cases: a person who, being married, commits zina, a person for (the murder) of another, and a person who abandons his religion and separatesfrom jama‘ah (of Muslims)." (Muslim 3175)


With separating from the jama'ah means to join the enemies.

Another proof about warlike apostasy:

The same hadith but look at the third category.

Muhammad bin Sinan al-Bahili related to us: Ibrahim bin Tahman related to us from ‘Abd al-‘Aziz bin Rufay‘ from ‘Ubayd bin ‘Umayr from ‘A`ishah who said: The Messenger of God said: “The blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God is not lawful except in one of three cases: a person who commits zina after marriage, for he is stoned; a person who sets out fighting God and his Messenger, for, he is killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or a person who kills another person and is killed for him." (Abu Da`ud 3789)


Its unfortunate that muslims apply death penalty to all apostates, they go against Quran and Sunnah.


This website brings Huge evidences to back up what iam saying.

The Punishment Of Apostacy In Islam - Part II

So what's an example of warlike words within an Islamic country? Criticism?

I mean most countries defend themselves against treason. But criticism and treason are two very different things...

icehorse said:

TashaN - I really try to avoid making strawmen. I honestly thought that's what you were implying - sorry.

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No need to apologize. It was just a misunderstanding.

As for theocracy, maybe we're just defining it differently, but I thought the idea of Sharia was to create theocracies. Here's a definition of theocracy:

- wikipedia

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No, the problem is that people don't know what is Shariah on the first place, but let's leave that for another topic.

Islam is against all forms of theocracies. In fact, it encourage us to fight it and fight unjust rulers by standing up to them and protesting any injustice even if it means speaking up will cost us our life. Therefore, islamic shura is very close to modern democracy.

Anyhow, you can start reading from here about it:

Shura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

icehorse said:

So what's an example of warlike words within an Islamic country? Criticism?

I mean most countries defend themselves against treason. But criticism and treason are two very different things...

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Calling people to become apostates, calling for uprising and reject the faith.


Dont get me wrong.
I believe in quran verse there is no compulsion in religion.
The warlike apostasy is danger to islam and muslim identity.
So the amiir can choose from exile, execution etc. If i was leader i would in most case choose for exile, the lesser of the punishment choices.


Iam supporter of "no compulsion in religion" and that anyone should be able to choose his religion or to leave islam.

Allah swt: Let him believe who wants, and let him disbelieve who wants.


What people dont understand is that during the times of prophet pbuh there was constant of war situation. So it was logical for the apostate to join the makkan polytheists.
And yet there were also peaceful apostates like the one who left Madina. Prophet pbuh said:
Madinah is exactly like a furnace; it expels out the impurities and retains the good."

TashaN said:

Please don't put words into my mouth. Did i say they are equally able to be abused? Read again please.

And by the way, Islam is against theocracies. It's a shura system.

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The line between "Islamic democracy" or "Islamic republic" and theocracy is a blurred one. I do not believe that Pakistan is remotely secular, for example; even comparatively liberal Indonesia makes unwarranted concessions to Muslim extremists at the local level. I certainly don’t think that any state that issues religious identification cards, or that boxes people into a system of laws based on their confessional identity, is secular.