Jesus Feels Forsaken - How do we reconcile this?

I posted this in the "Christian Theology" subforum, and then I realized that I might get more responses here.

I'm curious to know other people's perspectives on what is happening to the character of Jesus in the following passage. I'm familiar with various theological views. So, if you could also offer a psychological or a sociological view, that would be helpful. And even if you don't believe that Jesus Christ was a real historical person (as some people don't), would you still be able to offer a comment based on viewing Jesus as a literary character, even if you believe the literature is mythological in nature. What is the message for the reader, for human society, for humanity?

From Matthew chapter 27:45-47 NASB.

45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah." (Cf. Mark 15:33-35)

What are the implications in the death of "God" as a Human Being. What is the intended moral to the story. From a psychological POV, what is the commentary it's making on Humanity and the Human experience, and the Human psyche. What might the darkness represent?

What is the underlying message about Humanity and Divinity? About Human self-discovery? And about reckoning with one's Reality? What might the message be to the reader?

And in the broader narrative -- taking all four canonical gospels as a whole -- who or what is the "(Heavenly) Father" to whom Jesus yields his spirit in the end? (See Luke 23:44-46. Note that Luke mentions the darkness, but not Jesus' cry of feeling forsaken.) How does Jesus differentiate and/or reconcile the "God" by whom he feels forsaken, and the "Father" in whom Jesus trusts in the end?

What experience has Jesus processed between those two moments? What do his two statements, one of feeling betrayed and then one of trusting, reveal about Jesus' experience and his psyche? How do you view the conclusion of Jesus' death, and what are the implications in your conclusion, concerning Jesus' psychological state?

Thank you.

I am assuming you know Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1 and this references Isaiah 53:10. This was no mere accident. Those looking back to this event would be reminded of the other parts of this prophetic song. In all actuality Jesus' words can not be taken out of the context of Psalm 22. The whole of it was an expression of his feelings at the moment. (sorry for the super long quote. I broke it down to the parts I found personally needed to flesh out the meaning.) The whole of the song moves from despair to praise. And in the case of Jesus quote of the 1st stanza, I do not believe we can accept the despair and ignore the movement into the praise. Most definitely Jesus was not a man lacking in faith, even in this cry about being forsaken.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you far from saving me,
Far from my cries of anguish?
- Psalm 22:1

But I am a worm and not a man,
Scorned by (or "a reproach to.") men and despised by the people.
All those seeing me mock me;
They sneer and shake their heads in derision;
"He entrusted himself to Jehovah. Let Him rescue him!
Let Him save him, for he is so dear to Him!"
- Psalm 22:6-8

Do not stay far off from me, for trouble is near
And I have no other helper.
Many young bulls surround me;
Powerful bulls of Ba'shan encircle me.
They open their mouth wide against me,
Like a roaring lion that tears its prey to pieces.
I am poured out like water;
All my bones are out of joint.
My heart has become like wax;
It melts deep within me.
My strength has dried up like a piece of pottery;
My tongue sticks to my gums;
You are bringing me down to the dust of death.
For dogs surround me;
They close in on me like a pack of evildoers,
Like a lion they are at my hands and feet.
I can count all my bones.
They look on and stare at me.
They divide my garments among themselves,
And they cast lots for my clothing.
But you, O Jehovah, do not remain far away.
You are my strength; hurry to help me.
Save me (or "my soul.") from the sword,
My precious life (Lit., "My only one," referring to his soul, or life.) from the paws of dogs;
Save me from the mouth of the lion and the horns of wild bulls;
Answer me and save me.
- Psalm 22:11-21

For [Jehovah] has not despised nor loathed the suffering of the oppressed one;
He has not hidden his face from him.
When he cried to him for help, he heard.
I will praise you in the large congregation;
I will pay my vows before those who fear him.
The meek will eat and be satisfied;
Those seeking Jehovah will praise him.
May you enjoy life (Lit., "May your heart live.") forever.
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to Jehovah.
All the families of nations will bow down before you.
For the kingship belongs to Jehovah;
He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous ones (Lit., "fat ones.") of the earth will eat and bow down;
All those going down to the dust will kneel before him;
None of them can preserve their lives.
Their descendants will serve him;
The generation to come will be told about Jehovah.
They will come and tell of his righteousness.
They will tell the people yet to be born what he has done.
- Psalm 22:24-31

(Also of note is I do not read this thru a 'Jesus is God' mindset. Jesus, to me, was literally calling out to his God, with his own clear self-identity intact.)

Missed a point, which is until his death he spoke the word of God....which is a prophecy somewhere.

Kolibri said:

... Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1 and this references Isaiah 53:10. ... The whole of the song moves from despair to praise. And in the case of Jesus quote of the 1st stanza, I do not believe we can accept the despair and ignore the movement into the praise. Most definitely Jesus was not a man lacking in faith, even in this cry about being forsaken...
(Also of note is I do not read this thru a 'Jesus is God' mindset. Jesus, to me, was literally calling out to his God, with his own clear self-identity intact.)

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying.

Why do you suppose Jesus quoted only the beginning and did not add at least a few words from the latter part of the psalm, to mention the praise? Not necessarily everyone hearing would know the entire psalm. Many there were Gentiles. All they would hear and remember would be what Jesus did say. So, if he came to save the whole world, and not just the Jews, then what he said is what he meant for the non-Jews (or for the hearers who did not know the entire psalm).

Also, prior to the crucifixion, Jesus had that he expected his "Father" to be with him and not leave him alone (John 16:32). If Jesus did not feel forsaken, but was sort of 'acting out' the scriptures, doesn't that seem somewhat disingenuous? Or if Jesus really did feel forsaken, then wouldn't that show that he had been mistaken in his prior expectations of his Father's loyalty and comfort? Or was it that the Father had misled Jesus in that regard? Or is it possible that this "God" Jehovah/Yahweh and the Heavenly Father are two separate entities?

Why do you suppose Jesus sometimes referred to "God" and sometimes to the "Father"? And whenever Jesus referred to the "Heavenly Father," the entity Jesus described was strikingly antithetical in nature, character, and behavior to that of the OT god, Jehovah/Yaheh.

If you don't view Jesus as God, such as the standard Trinitarian view does, what do you believe Jesus' self-identity was?

Being said:

Thanks for replying.

Why do you suppose Jesus quoted only the beginning and did not add at least a few words from the latter part of the psalm, to mention the praise? Not necessarily everyone hearing would know the entire psalm. Many there were Gentiles. All they would hear and remember would be what Jesus did say. So, if he came to save the whole world, and not just the Jews, then what he said is what he meant for the non-Jews (or for the hearers who did not know the entire psalm).

Also, prior to the crucifixion, Jesus had that he expected his "Father" to be with him and not leave him alone (John 16:32). If Jesus did not feel forsaken, but was sort of 'acting out' the scriptures, doesn't that seem somewhat disingenuous? Or if Jesus really did feel forsaken, then wouldn't that show that he had been mistaken in his prior expectations of his Father's loyalty and comfort? Or was it that the Father had misled Jesus in that regard? Or is it possible that this "God" Jehovah/Yahweh and the Heavenly Father are two separate entities?

Why do you suppose Jesus sometimes referred to "God" and sometimes to the "Father"? And whenever Jesus referred to the "Heavenly Father," the entity Jesus described was strikingly antithetical in nature, character, and behavior to that of the OT god, Jehovah/Yaheh.

If you don't view Jesus as God, such as the standard Trinitarian view does, what do you believe Jesus' self-identity was?

Click to expand...

I believe that the 'linking' to the Psalms, is an error.

Christ was told beforehand (God's Commandment), that no man could take His carnal life. Christ, Himself, was given the power to give His carnal life up, and take it back again.

When Christ tried to give up His carnal life, NOTHING HAPPENED. This is why He called out to His Father in heaven. The truth, is that Satan was allowed to tempt Christ, at the end of His carnal life.

It is written, that we must be found worthy...UNTIL THE END, in order to become sons/daughters of God. Christ faced this same 'challenge'. If Christ would have 'cursed' His Father, and called Him a liar, we would not have a saviour today. Christ was facing the possibility of having His legs broken, in order to speed His death, as per the requirements/rules/laws of the Passover. Christ believed that His 'job' was done. He was wrong. He still had to pass the same test we all must face...to be found worthy...until the end.

Being said:

Why do you suppose Jesus quoted only the beginning and did not add at least a few words from the latter part of the psalm, to mention the praise?

Click to expand...

Personally, if I was in that much pain, I would have been brief. And Jesus' words only set the stage for the fulfillment. As soon as he quoted the 1st stanza the 8th was fulfilled and after his death so was the 18th. (John 19:32-34) The whole event and into his resurrection and the establishment of the Christian congregation plays into the fulfillment. The 120 at Pentecost quickly became 3000, and then 5000. ("large congregation" 25th stanza; Acts 2:41; 4:4)

And the brevity was in keeping with Jesus rarely speaking without a riddle. The truth was not for people that did not want to dig for it. The 22nd Psalm was already in circulation long before this. Now both books are part of a larger book that is the most widely distributed and widely translated in the whole world. But at the time of his death, Jesus took into consideration people's lack of awareness that was beyond their own doing. (Luke 23:34) People would be able to reflect on the comparison later in life. Even at this moment the disciples were filled with grief that had not yet turned to praise.

Being said:

Or if Jesus really did feel forsaken, then wouldn't that show that he had been mistaken in his prior expectations of his Father's loyalty and comfort?

Click to expand...

This issue here isn't whether or not he felt Jehovah's protective power removed from him to allow him to experience death. The issue is why he used a question that could be misinterpreted as a lack of faith or trust. The truth is not for those wise in their own eyes. Only those that want to dig deeper will get the sense of things. (John 6:60,65,68)

Being said:

Why do you suppose Jesus sometimes referred to "God" and sometimes to the "Father"? And whenever Jesus referred to the "Heavenly Father," the entity Jesus described was strikingly antithetical in nature, character, and behavior to that of the OT god, Jehovah/Yaheh.

Click to expand...

God and Father are titles that have different meanings. One is inherently more intimately warm then the other but both are descriptive of the same person. God is simply "mighty/powerful one." Father, well we all know what a Father is, though many are not as warmly intimate with theirs as Jesus was. "Ab'ba" was akin to saying "Papa" in a dignified way. (Mr 14:36).

Malachi 3:6 and James 1:17 state that God does not change. His standards of Justice, Wisdom, and Love are the same with no variation. Conflicts in understanding can be attributed to not having a good enough understanding of the circumstances involved. Jesus had the right of it when he related the illustration at Mt 21:33-41. Jehovah was the landowner. The cultivators were the Jewish people. The slaves were the faithful prophets. And Jesus was the son. Jehovah proved himself merciful over and over again even in the Hebrew Scriptures. Each case that looks otherwise would require attention that might be better served in another thread.

Being said:

If you don't view Jesus as God, such as the standard Trinitarian view does, what do you believe Jesus' self-identity was?

Click to expand...

Jesus self-identity set at the time of his death.

He has experiences and roles that no one else has lived.
John 3:16 - states Jesus was God's only-begotten Son. Meaning that he is the only person ever solely formed by God.
Colossians 1:15,16 - states that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and that all other things were make through him. Jesus thus was the first thing God ever formed, and became a "master worker" doing the things his father had him do. (Prov 8:30).
Genesis 1:26 - restating that Jesus would have been included in this "us"
John 1:1; Revelation 19:13 - Jesus saw himself as the true God's Chief Spokesman. (the "Word") as such he was likely the angel of Ex 32:34.
Before and after his human existence he has also been known as Michael - the archangel Who Is Michael the Archangel? | Bible Teach (But that is not the name we use in our prayers.)
As human, Jesus was a replacement Adam. His body was nothing more or less in value than that of our first human parent prior to his defection. (1Co 15:15)
His self-identity also includes his personal relationships with friends and family and his disciples.
All of these things and more add up to his self-identity at the time of his death. As that was your question, I will stop here.

Kolibri said:

Personally, if I was in that much pain, I would have been brief. And Jesus' words only set the stage for the fulfillment. As soon as he quoted the 1st stanza the 8th was fulfilled and after his death so was the 18th. (John 19:32-34) The whole event and into his resurrection and the establishment of the Christian congregation plays into the fulfillment. The 120 at Pentecost quickly became 3000, and then 5000. ("large congregation" 25th stanza; Acts 2:41; 4:4)

And the brevity was in keeping with Jesus rarely speaking without a riddle. The truth was not for people that did not want to dig for it. The 22nd Psalm was already in circulation long before this. Now both books are part of a larger book that is the most widely distributed and widely translated in the whole world. But at the time of his death, Jesus took into consideration people's lack of awareness that was beyond their own doing. (Luke 23:34) People would be able to reflect on the comparison later in life. Even at this moment the disciples were filled with grief that had not yet turned to praise.



This issue here isn't whether or not he felt Jehovah's protective power removed from him to allow him to experience death. The issue is why he used a question that could be misinterpreted as a lack of faith or trust. The truth is not for those wise in their own eyes. Only those that want to dig deeper will get the sense of things. (John 6:60,65,68)



God and Father are titles that have different meanings. One is inherently more intimately warm then the other but both are descriptive of the same person. God is simply "mighty/powerful one." Father, well we all know what a Father is, though many are not as warmly intimate with theirs as Jesus was. "Ab'ba" was akin to saying "Papa" in a dignified way. (Mr 14:36).

Malachi 3:6 and James 1:17 state that God does not change. His standards of Justice, Wisdom, and Love are the same with no variation. Conflicts in understanding can be attributed to not having a good enough understanding of the circumstances involved. Jesus had the right of it when he related the illustration at Mt 21:33-41. Jehovah was the landowner. The cultivators were the Jewish people. The slaves were the faithful prophets. And Jesus was the son. Jehovah proved himself merciful over and over again even in the Hebrew Scriptures. Each case that looks otherwise would require attention that might be better served in another thread.


Jesus self-identity set at the time of his death.

He has experiences and roles that no one else has lived.
John 3:16 - states Jesus was God's only-begotten Son. Meaning that he is the only person ever solely formed by God.
Colossians 1:15,16 - states that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and that all other things were make through him. Jesus thus was the first thing God ever formed, and became a "master worker" doing the things his father had him do. (Prov 8:30).
Genesis 1:26 - restating that Jesus would have been included in this "us"
John 1:1; Revelation 19:13 - Jesus saw himself as the true God's Chief Spokesman. (the "Word") as such he was likely the angel of Ex 32:34.
Before and after his human existence he has also been known as Michael - the archangel Who Is Michael the Archangel? | Bible Teach (But that is not the name we use in our prayers.)
As human, Jesus was a replacement Adam. His body was nothing more or less in value than that of our first human parent prior to his defection. (1Co 15:15)
His self-identity also includes his personal relationships with friends and family and his disciples.
All of these things and more add up to his self-identity at the time of his death. As that was your question, I will stop here.

Click to expand...

Why complicate something that is very simple? You are 'all over the map'.

I believe God and Jesus are two separate entities (that Jesus did not pray to himself, or ascend to himself, or say "not my will, but my other will be done?" ... and I don't think he was just quoting scripture when he cried out, I think it was genuine, I believe he felt pain, and experienced what it was to be human - that's the whole point of it, that he was "one of us" for a time, he was a mortal person, who experienced everything we experienced. It brings nobility to the human experience, and humility and the ability to relate with the divine.

idea said:

I believe God and Jesus are two separate entities (that Jesus did not pray to himself, or ascend to himself, or say "not my will, but my other will be done?" ... and I don't think he was just quoting scripture when he cried out, I think it was genuine, I believe he felt pain, and experienced what it was to be human - that's the whole point of it, that he was "one of us" for a time, he was a mortal person, who experienced everything we experienced. It brings nobility to the human experience, and humility and the ability to relate with the divine.

Click to expand...

It is not a matter of what you believe. Isaiah 44:6 and the witnessing in the NT scriptures provide us with the truth.

Thorwald Johansen said:

It is not a matter of what you believe. Isaiah 44:6 and the witnessing in the NT scriptures provide us with the truth.

Click to expand...

Yes, I believe God is the one and only God... not sure what you seem to be upset about?

idea said:

Yes, I believe God is the one and only God... not sure what you seem to be upset about?

Click to expand...

I'm Not 'upset'. Isaiah 44:6 explicitly states that 'God' is made up of 'two' figures. The Lord God Almighty is 'king' of the throne of God, and Jesus [The Lord of Hosts] is the 'prince'. Lucifer/Satan wanted the position that Jesus holds, resulting in his being cast out from heaven.

Thorwald Johansen said:

I'm Not 'upset'. Isaiah 44:6 explicitly states that 'God' is made up of 'two' figures. The Lord God Almighty is 'king' of the throne of God, and Jesus [The Lord of Hosts] is the 'prince'. Lucifer/Satan wanted the position that Jesus holds, resulting in his being cast out from heaven.

Click to expand...

Need to restore the tetragrammaton to it's rightful place to get the sense of this verse, or at least recognize where it was.

This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel and his Repurchaser,
Jehovah of armies:
'I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but me.'
- Isaiah 44:6

Jesus is not referred to in this passage. The whole of it is about God himself.

God's reason for calling himself 'the first and the last' is different from the reason Jesus is called that in Re 1:17,18, as noted by the following parts of the passages.
There is no Almighty God before or after Jehovah.
Jesus was the first resurrected to immortal life, he was the last to be resurrected directly by Jehovah.

totally different reasons.

Being said:

I posted this in the "Christian Theology" subforum, and then I realized that I might get more responses here.

I'm curious to know other people's perspectives on what is happening to the character of Jesus in the following passage. I'm familiar with various theological views. So, if you could also offer a psychological or a sociological view, that would be helpful. And even if you don't believe that Jesus Christ was a real historical person (as some people don't), would you still be able to offer a comment based on viewing Jesus as a literary character, even if you believe the literature is mythological in nature. What is the message for the reader, for human society, for humanity?

From Matthew chapter 27:45-47 NASB.

45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah." (Cf. Mark 15:33-35)

What are the implications in the death of "God" as a Human Being. What is the intended moral to the story. From a psychological POV, what is the commentary it's making on Humanity and the Human experience, and the Human psyche. What might the darkness represent?

What is the underlying message about Humanity and Divinity? About Human self-discovery? And about reckoning with one's Reality? What might the message be to the reader?

And in the broader narrative -- taking all four canonical gospels as a whole -- who or what is the "(Heavenly) Father" to whom Jesus yields his spirit in the end? (See Luke 23:44-46. Note that Luke mentions the darkness, but not Jesus' cry of feeling forsaken.) How does Jesus differentiate and/or reconcile the "God" by whom he feels forsaken, and the "Father" in whom Jesus trusts in the end?

What experience has Jesus processed between those two moments? What do his two statements, one of feeling betrayed and then one of trusting, reveal about Jesus' experience and his psyche? How do you view the conclusion of Jesus' death, and what are the implications in your conclusion, concerning Jesus' psychological state?

Thank you.

Click to expand...

That God (the Father) is like us and that we are like God, but whereas God is perfect we are not. Furthermore God has to execute perfect justice which means he cannot grant mercy without undoing justice, which would prevent us from becoming perfect (which God wants us to become), which is why Christ is so important. However for the price to be paid it requires someone who has not broken any law, and has an eye single to the honor of God, and someone granted the means of taking up their own life again. which basically means that that individual has to suffer all the hell that people can possibly suffer for their actions, before any means of mercy and grace can be meted out. Christ is that bridge.

I don't think he was feeling betrayal per se, he had a knowledge of what he had to do and what he was to go through, but until he physically went through it I don't think he intrinsically knew the depth of it, as a mortal- and that this was the first and only time he ever experienced a total withdrawal from God the Father.
In the Garden he's asking his Father if there was any other way to accomplish his task.

If nothing else it shows that when we are in our darkest hour and we cry out "WHY?" we are not alone.

Blackmarch said:

That God (the Father) is like us and that we are like God, but whereas God is perfect we are not. Furthermore God has to execute perfect justice which means he cannot grant mercy without undoing justice, which would prevent us from becoming perfect (which God wants us to become), which is why Christ is so important. However for the price to be paid it requires someone who has not broken any law, and has an eye single to the honor of God, and someone granted the means of taking up their own life again. which basically means that that individual has to suffer all the hell that people can possibly suffer for their actions, before any means of mercy and grace can be meted out. Christ is that bridge.

I don't think he was feeling betrayal per se, he had a knowledge of what he had to do and what he was to go through, but until he physically went through it I don't think he intrinsically knew the depth of it, as a mortal- and that this was the first and only time he ever experienced a total withdrawal from God the Father.
In the Garden he's asking his Father if there was any other way to accomplish his task.

If nothing else it shows that when we are in our darkest hour and we cry out "WHY?" we are not alone.

Click to expand...

"During his life on earth, (Lit., In the days of his flesh) Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchiz'edek." - Hebrews 5:7-10

Kolibri said:

Need to restore the tetragrammaton to it's rightful place to get the sense of this verse, or at least recognize where it was.

This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel and his Repurchaser,
Jehovah of armies:
'I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but me.'
- Isaiah 44:6

Jesus is not referred to in this passage. The whole of it is about God himself.

God's reason for calling himself 'the first and the last' is different from the reason Jesus is called that in Re 1:17,18, as noted by the following parts of the passages.
There is no Almighty God before or after Jehovah.
Jesus was the first resurrected to immortal life, he was the last to be resurrected directly by Jehovah.

totally different reasons.

Click to expand...

I use the KJV Bible. Isaiah 44:6 is written differently than what you have written above.

Thorwald Johansen said:

I use the KJV Bible. Isaiah 44:6 is written differently than what you have written above.

Click to expand...

true. But does the lord come with all caps? that is LORD? that is where the KJV recognized that the divine name was present originally.

Ah yes. I just double checked.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last;
and besides me there is no God.
- Isaiah 44:6

I can certainly see where you got the idea of 2 people though. Since God's name was replaced.

Says the King of Israel
and its friend in need, Jehovah of Armies,
I am first and I am last,
and besides me there is no god.
- Byington

Kolibri said:

true. But does the lord come with all caps? that is LORD? that is where the KJV recognized that the divine name was present originally.

Ah yes. I just double checked.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last;
and besides me there is no God.
- Isaiah 44:6

I can certainly see where you got the idea of 2 people though. Since God's name was replaced.

Says the King of Israel
and its friend in need, Jehovah of Armies,
I am first and I am last,
and besides me there is no god.
- Byington

Click to expand...

I don't know where you received your interpretation from. Stephen, in Acts 7:55-56, saw Jesus standing on the right hand of The Lord God Almighty. So have I. In my vision, there were 'four figures' present...two who I was not allowed to see, but yet CONTROLLED the vision, and two who I was allowed to see.

How do you reconcile John 5:37, and the scripture (which is repeated more than once in the Gospels) referring to the voice from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased?" If no man at any time has seen or heard the 'invisible to man' FATHER, and The Lord of Hosts is on earth in the body of Christ, then, "Who spoke these words?"

John 5:37 was spoken about the time of the Passover of 31 C.E. to Jews that were persecuting Jesus (John 5:16)
Apparently only Jesus and John the Baptizer had heard the audible voice of Jehovah at the time of Jesus' baptism in the fall of 29 C.E.
The last two instances of Jehovah’s speaking had not yet occurred at this point.

Kolibri said:

John 5:37 was spoken about the time of the Passover of 31 C.E. to Jews that were persecuting Jesus (John 5:16)
Apparently only Jesus and John the Baptizer had heard the audible voice of Jehovah at the time of Jesus' baptism in the fall of 29 C.E.
The last two instances of Jehovah’s speaking had not yet occurred at this point.

Click to expand...

Again...., the scriptures tie into what I personally experienced in my vision. Nowhere else in scriptures, have I read of 'all four figures' being present at the same time. Why now? To correct errors being taught. At the end of my dream 'in riddles', God told me, "There is something broken", and I volunteered to 'fix it'. This is what is 'broken'. He then asked me, "Do you think you can handle it?" I answered, "Yes." The dream ended, and He woke me up, and told me to write the dream down. I did as He asked. Nine years of research, prayer, Bible reading, and so on, followed.

Thorwald Johansen said:

Again...., the scriptures tie into what I personally experienced in my vision. Nowhere else in scriptures, have I read of 'all four figures' being present at the same time. Why now? To correct errors being taught. At the end of my dream 'in riddles', God told me, "There is something broken", and I volunteered to 'fix it'. This is what is 'broken'. He then asked me, "Do you think you can handle it?" I answered, "Yes." The dream ended, and He woke me up, and told me to write the dream down. I did as He asked. Nine years of research, prayer, Bible reading, and so on, followed.

Click to expand...

I do not discount your dreams but I strongly disagree with your interpretation of their source. We don't need dreams to understand scripture. Special gift of the spirit were features of the Christian congregation's infancy only. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) Now it is that scripture interprets scripture. (2 Tim 3:16,17) We have to be careful if ever we are visited by spirits. Whatever the sign or vision or whatever the teaching is, it must match what is already written - not change it into something else. (Galatians 1:8) We have to beware that Satan goes around disguising himself as an angel of light and him and his co-rebels have the power to effect seeming miracles. (2 Cor 11:14; Ex 7:11)

As far as Stephan or any other person seeing God in a vision, we have to realize that this is akin to us using a television to watch actors 'be' whoever it is they are representing. Otherwise, according to other scriptures, these ones would have died upon seeing God. (John 1:18)