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What about "God is Spirit" don't you accept? Christians only (all variants)

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Squirt said:
In that I believe we will receive a new resurrected, immortal body of flesh and bones.
Do we have scriptures to support this?

Squirt said:
FYI, Doc, female cats have whiskers, too. The part of a cat that you have to check out to determine its sex is not shown in my avatar. ;)
Anyone looking at that picture can tell it's a "Tom" and not a "Tomasina". :D It's got a goatee!
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
Do we have scriptures to support this?
Several of us have quoted scriptures to support this belief, but you just say you interpret them differently. That's why I don't see this debate progressing any further than it already has.

Tomasina
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Well Tomasina (with a Goatee),

This flies in the face of this Scripture:

I Corinthians 15:50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." NIV
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Ummm...technically she didn't say flesh and blood. She said flesh and bones, which doesn't contradict the scripture you offer. Flesh and blood won't inherit the kingdom of God.
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
this topic was debated for 350 plus years in the early days of the catholic church. and after a consensus there is still much debate... it bowels down to is perspective... I believe that our sprit and body is like God our father, because He created Adam in his image so i will be in Adams images which is in gods image... also i believe that all things are possible though God, so God may have a body just on this description God can do anything. but on the other had most of the old testament is describes as god is a sprit... well in works god and Jesus Christ the convention are the same so when on speaks about earth they both speak as one so Jesus would not have a body before he was born but will after he conquered death... Thus, "the father is in me and i into the father"... no one know what power a restricted being has more than likely, all the power of both the physical and the spiritual... so the debate will go on and there will be no consensus...
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
So "technically" only her bones will inherit the kingdom then? Obviously, "Flesh" is out! :D
When Jesus was resurrected, He pointed out to His Apostles that He was a being of flesh and bones and not merely a spirit. Flesh and bones is different from flesh and blood. Since He was resurrected with flesh and bones, we will be, too.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
My Lord also walked on water, turned water into wine as well as millions of other signs. I don't expect to do these. However, he has promised that I will do GREATER things than this.

The Scriptures make it plain that we will put on "incorruptible", and put off the "corruptible". I will not have this body and praise God that my new "body" will be a spiritual one.

I guess we disagree and I will take comfort in the scriptures God has seen fit to give us.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Perhaps so. It's been wonderful to discuss this with you at any rate!

For completeness, I thought I'd bring up the scripture that Squirt was referring to:

Luke 24: 39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Surely, but he doesn't indicate anywhere that this will be OUR resurrection body. Now, if when we all die we are to be ressurected WITHOUT seeing any decay, then sure.

But we all know that when you and I die, our bodies WILL decay.

Acts 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." NIV

Our Spirits (Souls) however, will just sleep.
 

Squirt

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
The Scriptures make it plain that we will put on "incorruptible", and put off the "corruptible". I will not have this body and praise God that my new "body" will be a spiritual one.
What exactly do you mean when you say that your new body will be a spiritual one, NetDoc?

I'm also curious as to your comments about Matthew 27:52-53, which state, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

What do you believe the word "bodies" means in this context? We know that when these individuals died, their physical bodies were buried. When Christ was resurrected, many of these bodies came out of their graves. What do you believe this scripture is telling us if it is not, in fact, describing a physical resurrection?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Squirt,

There are resurrections... like Lazarus, Jesus and those who rose with Jesus.

Then there is the final resurrection. I see nothing similar between the two and I see no reason to ASSUME that they are one in the same. They served separate purposes. BTW, are those who rose with Jesus still with us today? How about Lazarus? It's kinda obvious that this was not an eternal resurrection.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
So "technically" only her bones will inherit the kingdom then? Obviously, "Flesh" is out! :D

It wasn't until the fourth century that Christians started teaching and believing that "flesh" was intrinsically evil, and could not inherit the kingdom of God. This was the result of the neo-Platonic influence on Christianity brought on primarily by Augustine, but pushed along by others before and well after him.

The Bible uses two different terms. When referring to mortal people the Bible says "flesh and blood", but when referring to immortal humans (i.e. Pre-Fall Adam and Eve, post-Resurrection Jesus) it always says "flesh and bone". Before the Fall all living things were quickened by spirit instead of blood. After being resurrected, all living things return to a spiritual state of being. This is not to say that there is no tangible body, or "flesh", but only that life is contained in spirit, not in blood, therefore the life is a "spiritual" one. Gen. 9:4 - "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Notice the flesh does not contain life, but the blood does. Nowhere in the bible do we find anything saying that spiritual things cannot have flesh, in fact we find the opposite. Jesus teaches Nicodemus that people who are born of the Spirit (through baptism and the Holy Ghost) are spirit. I am spirit (just as God is spirit) because I was born of the Spirit when I was baptized. "Spirit" as you can plainly see, can have flesh.

Many people foam at the mouth about the idea that God has a body. The only thing they can quote from (besides pagan philosophy) is John 4:24, which says "God is a spirit." The article "a" is italicized because it is not in the Greek. The article "a" doesn't exist in Greek or Hebrew. The Greek reads (literally) "spirit is God". Many will argue that spirit cannot have flesh, but "incorporeal" or any derivitive is nowhere in the bible. Origen argued against a corporeal God, but admits that the idea is not Biblical. The Clementine Homilies admit that Christianity originally believed in a corporeal God. Felix says that Plato is dead on in teaching that God is immaterial. The Jews were Hellenized way before Christ and they started changing their scriptures around to attack theomorphic ideas about God. All the places where their scriptures spoke of God's body parts they replaced with the word memra, which is similar to the Greek logos. Christianity followed suit shortly thereafter, and your ideas are pure Plato.

Now, moving on to your idea about flesh inheriting the kingdom of heaven - the early Church fathers ALL taught that the resurrection was a physical one, and that flesh would inherit the kingdom of heaven. They did so because that is what the original Apostles taught and because there is no place in the Bible that says otherwise. Galileo says that the "unadorned grammatical meaning" of the Bible renders God corporeal. Tertullian condemns the heretical teaching that we are not resurrected to the flesh forever, as do Ignatius and Iranaeus.

Here are Justin Martyr's words: "They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh." He continues: "And there are some who maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual, and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise. First, then, let us solve those things which seem to them to be insoluble; then we will introduce in an orderly manner the demonstration concerning the flesh, proving that it partakes of salvation." He continues: "But following our order, we must now speak with respect to those who think meanly of the flesh, and say that it is not worthy of the resurrection nor of the heavenly economy, because, first, its substance is earth; and besides, because it is full of all wickedness, so that it forces the soul to sin along with it. But these persons seem to be ignorant of the whole work of God, both of the genesis and formation of man at the first, and why the things in the world were made. For does not the word say, "Let Us make man in our image, and after our likeness?" What kind of man? Manifestly He means fleshly man, For the word says, "And God took dust of the earth, and made man." It is evident, therefore, that man made in the image of God was of flesh. Is it not, then, absurd to say, that the flesh made by God in His own image is contemptible, and worth nothing? But that the flesh is with God a precious possession is manifest, first from its being formed by Him, if at least the image is valuable to the former and artist; and besides, its value can be gathered from the creation of the rest of the world. For that on account of which the rest is made, is the most precious of all to the maker."

Both Clement of Rome and Alexandria agree with the Martyr. The Apostle's Creed states that the Resurrection of the flesh is doctrine. Theophilus of Antioch says this: "God will raise up your flesh immortal with your soul."

You will be hard pressed (it's impossible) to find a Christian from the first 300 years after Christ who didn't beleive the flesh inherited the kigdom of God. It was not a dabate until philosophy completely took over the church. It is not a difficult doctrine, it is not a mystery and it is not the pagan philosophy that has completely assimilated your doctrine. Our bodies of flesh and bone will rise again and we will have spirit coursing through our veins and we will live forever.

I finish with the words of Cyril of Jerusalem. Keep in mind that "spiritual body" does NOT mean no flesh. "This body shall be raised, not remaining weak as it is now, but this same body shall be raised. By putting on incorruption, it shall be altered, as iron blending with fire becomes fire—or rather, in a manner the Lord who raises us knows. However it will be, this body shall be raised, but it shall not remain such as it is. Rather, it shall abide as an eternal body. It shall no longer require for its life such nourishment as now, nor shall it require a ladder for its ascent; for it shall be made a spiritual body, a marvelous thing, such as we have not the ability to describe".

 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Dan, you raise some good points, but can you please delete the insults such as "the ramblings of ignorance"? NetDoc has been quite civil on this thread and elsewhere. To depart from his lead is bad form, and a terrible representation of our beliefs.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
dan said:
Ha, ha, ha. The ramblings of ignorance.
Your first statement precludes me from reading the rest. Thanks for the condescension, but I don't need to be insulted anymore.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Then don't spout off about stuff you don't know.

I often get more insults leveled at me in this forum for no other reason than I am a subscribe to a particular faith. I don't make a claim unless I've done enough research to stand up for what I say. If you don't know what you're talking about then don't get upset if someone points that out to you.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
By your actions, I would surmise that politeness and forebearance are not part of your religion or upbringing. It would also appear that you believe that two wrongs make a right. Your inability to understand the scriptures is not my problem. If you have a problem with the scriptures so presented, I suggest you take it up with God. I do take umbrage at your flames and that you see this as some sort of capitulation only proves that your words have no merit. When you are ready to leave out the INSULTS, I will be ready to discuss your views. Until then: Good day!

I said: Good day!

dan said:
Then don't spout off about stuff you don't know.

I often get more insults leveled at me in this forum for no other reason than I am a subscribe to a particular faith. I don't make a claim unless I've done enough research to stand up for what I say. If you don't know what you're talking about then don't get upset if someone points that out to you.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
I deleted the remark you found insulting, and I apologize if my tone is offensive, but please don't accuse my religion of being responsible for it. My attitude has been something I have been trying to change since I joined my church, and I've come a long way. I'll be the first to admit that I'm still a jerk, but my faith has nothing to do with it.

I invite any criticism of my research, but this claim:

NetDoc said:
Your inability to understand the scriptures is not my problem.

is just as void of evidence and merit. I provided ample evidence for my stance and my interpretation, and I've never in my life seen a single attempt to prove it wrong. I invite you to do so.
 

Baerly

Active Member
NetDoc said:
Only by their lives and actions. :D

I brought out a specific instance. The death that is talked about in Genesis. Was it spiritual or physical? MOST people who claim to be Christians will say "physical", but Adam and Eve did not physically die after they sinned. However, they WERE seperated from God, which is spiritual DEATH.

How many Christians actually rely on the Spirit to be their "Counselor"?


Not only did Adam and Eve die spiritually,but they also started dying physically.There was no death in the world until sin entered. After Adam and Eve sinned, there were skins from animals to cover their bodies.That meant more death because of sin.
 
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