Spirit (Immortal) & Resurrection

Kolibri · Jan 21, 2015

This in an interesting refinement, to the Hebrew term translated 'thoughts.' As to whether is is merely "mortal deliberations and interactions and discussions" or "all such things", perhaps we can look to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10?

For the living know (or "are conscious.") that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, (or "wages.") because all memory of them is forgotten. - vs 5

Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (or "Sheol," that is, the common grave of mankind.) where you are going. -vs 10

Yes · Jan 21, 2015

Kolibri said:
This in an interesting refinement, to the Hebrew term translated 'thoughts.' As to whether is is merely "mortal deliberations and interactions and discussions" or "all such things", perhaps we can look to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10?

For the living know (or "are conscious.") that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, (or "wages.") because all memory of them is forgotten. - vs 5

Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (or "Sheol," that is, the common grave of mankind.) where you are going. -vs 10

Read what Hezekiah says in Isaiah:

Isaiah 38:18
For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

Was not Hezekiah remembering scripture?

Psalm 6:5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?

Psalm 30:9
"What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness? Psalm 88:10
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you?

Psalm 88:11
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction? Psalm 115:17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence; Psalm 118:17 I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the LORD has done. Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Psalm 28:1 Of David. To you, LORD, I call; you are my Rock, do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who go down to the pit.

These are scriptures of men speaking on their own in times of turmoil. God gives them life and healing in this world, but does it mean there really is no spirit that lives on after the death of our bodies? I say there is, and the scriptures in the New Testament show us this. The Old Testament was about earthy man, and the New Testament is more revelations, revelations fulfilled about what is spiritual. Jesus shows us that after being tortured and dying that we continue to live in the spirit.

moorea944 · Jan 22, 2015

Yes said:
Read what Hezekiah says in Isaiah:

Isaiah 38:18
For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

Was not Hezekiah remembering scripture?

Psalm 6:5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?

Psalm 30:9
"What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness? Psalm 88:10
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you?

Psalm 88:11
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction? Psalm 115:17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence; Psalm 118:17 I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the LORD has done. Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Psalm 28:1 Of David. To you, LORD, I call; you are my Rock, do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who go down to the pit.

These are scriptures of men speaking on their own in times of turmoil. God gives them life and healing in this world, but does it mean there really is no spirit that lives on after the death of our bodies? I say there is, and the scriptures in the New Testament show us this. The Old Testament was about earthy man, and the New Testament is more revelations, revelations fulfilled about what is spiritual. Jesus shows us that after being tortured and dying that we continue to live in the spirit.

Again, your thinking the spirit is something else that we have. Your taking it out of context.

[Jesus shows us that after being tortured and dying that we continue to live in the spirit]
That is completely false. Jesus taught about the resurrection. There is nothing, nothing in death. When your dead, you are dead until the resurrection. "If", there is something in death, are you saying that you would be judged at death to go ether to heaven or hell? I dont see that at all, Jesus says that he will judge at his return.

Look at the other verses and chapters on those verses that use spirit. What is it really saying. "Soul, spirit and body". What is that to you and what does it really mean. Look up the words instead of putting your own beliefs into the bible. Soul and spirit can be written in many different ways. But never... something that was given to us at some point in our lives. Is there a verse that says that God gives us a "soul"? What does soul mean.. What does spirit mean in scripture and the org. lang? We should be making an effort to look into these matters. If we dont, we now go down a different path.

GreenKepi · Jan 22, 2015

moorea944 said:
Again, your thinking the spirit is something else that we have. Your taking it out of context.

[Jesus shows us that after being tortured and dying that we continue to live in the spirit]
That is completely false. Jesus taught about the resurrection. There is nothing, nothing in death. When your dead, you are dead until the resurrection. "If", there is something in death, are you saying that you would be judged at death to go ether to heaven or hell? I dont see that at all, Jesus says that he will judge at his return.

Look at the other verses and chapters on those verses that use spirit. What is it really saying. "Soul, spirit and body". What is that to you and what does it really mean. Look up the words instead of putting your own beliefs into the bible. Soul and spirit can be written in many different ways. But never... something that was given to us at some point in our lives. Is there a verse that says that God gives us a "soul"? What does soul mean.. What does spirit mean in scripture and the org. lang? We should be making an effort to look into these matters. If we dont, we now go down a different path.

If we “sleep” in the grave...then please explain Moses and Eli′jah appearing in the Book of Matthew at the transfiguration. What was that...?

And Samuel and the Witch of Endor? What about King David in 2 Sam 13:23 when he said, “I will go to him.” He didn't seem to be speaking of an unlimited/unknown amount of time. Sounds to me, as if he was ready to go 'right away'.

For the saved...I believe...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23).

Kolibri · Jan 22, 2015

GreenKepi said:
If we “sleep” in the grave...then please explain Moses and Eli′jah appearing in the Book of Matthew at the transfiguration. What was that...?

And Samuel and the Witch of Endor? What about King David in 2 Sam 13:23 when he said, “I will go to him.” He didn't seem to be speaking of an unlimited/unknown amount of time. Sounds to me, as if he was ready to go 'right away'.

For the saved...I believe...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23).

The transfiguration was a vision, or perhaps 2 angels portraying the parts of Moses and Elijah for the purpose of the vision...two prophets that prefigured Jesus.
The "Samuel" was a demon impersonating "Samuel"
We can not discount Ecc 9:5,10. Nor the account of Lazarus "sleeping" in death.

GreenKepi · Jan 22, 2015

Kolibri said:
The transfiguration was a vision, or perhaps 2 angels portraying the parts of Moses and Elijah for the purpose of the vision...two prophets that prefigured Jesus.
The "Samuel" was a demon impersonating "Samuel"
We can not discount Ecc 9:5,10. Nor the account of Lazarus "sleeping" in death.

I can't 'buy' that it was only a vision. Who says it was a demon impersonating him? Granted, your opinion is just a good as mine; however, its just opinion. These Ecclesiastes verses have been 'twisted' til they scream. To me it reads: Once a person dies, his earthly environments are severed. He/she has no awareness of the happenings on earth or what happens on earth no longer affects them. After death you cannot change anything.

moorea944 · Jan 22, 2015

GreenKepi said:
I can't 'buy' that it was only a vision. Who says it was a demon impersonating him? Granted, your opinion is just a good as mine; however, its just opinion. These Ecclesiastes verses have been 'twisted' til they scream. To me it reads: Once a person dies, his earthly environments are severed. He/she has no awareness of the happenings on earth or what happens on earth no longer affects them. After death you cannot change anything.

Why cant you buy that it was only a vision? The bible says it was a vision. Is that maybe going against your understandings then?
Plus, the Eccl. verses have not been twisted at all. It just goes against alot of "mainstream" faiths. It is "mainstream" Christianity that has twisted. Not scripture.
But you are correct when it says that, once a person dies, he has no awareness of anythings. He is dead. Gone. He cannot think, remember or do anything until he is resurrected by our Lord.

GreenKepi · Jan 22, 2015

moorea944 said:
Why cant you buy that it was only a vision? The bible says it was a vision. Is that maybe going against your understandings then?
Plus, the Eccl. verses have not been twisted at all. It just goes against alot of "mainstream" faiths. It is "mainstream" Christianity that has twisted. Not scripture.
But you are correct when it says that, once a person dies, he has no awareness of anythings. He is dead. Gone. He cannot think, remember or do anything until he is resurrected by our Lord.

Okay...may I rephase that. Yes, it was a vision...but, it was really happening with Moses, etc. Twisted? You just mentioned that it goes against "mainstream". That appears twisting to me. True. God is not the author of confusion...preachers are. I don't think I said, once we die...we have no awareness of anything. I believe the Scriptures teach that we do. Anyway...just my opinion. I'll be quiet....

Kolibri · Jan 22, 2015

GreenKepi said:
Okay...may I rephase that. Yes, it was a vision...but, it was really happening with Moses, etc. Twisted? You just mentioned that it goes against "mainstream". That appears twisting to me. True. God is not the author of confusion...preachers are. I don't think I said, once we die...we have no awareness of anything. I believe the Scriptures teach that we do. Anyway...just my opinion. I'll be quiet....

You can speak. As this is under Biblical debates, the scriptures you have in mind have bearing and are welcome here.

However, Biblically, "mainstream" or "orthodox" is most often inaccurate.

2 Thessalonians 2
"Let no one lead you astray (or "seduce you.") in any way, because [the day of Jehovah] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction." - vs 3
"True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is acting as a restraint is out of the way." - vs 7
"That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." - vs 11
"So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain your hold on the traditions that you were taught, whether it was by a spoken message or by a letter from us." - vs 16

Already, by about 51 C.E. the apostasy was trying to gain momentum. Everything we have after the Apostle John died is suspect. With the last apostle dead, the restraint was gone and false teachers would have taught their lies unchecked.

Yes · Jan 23, 2015

Kolibri said:
The transfiguration was a vision, or perhaps 2 angels portraying the parts of Moses and Elijah for the purpose of the vision..

Just listen to yourself, you do not know, so then you make stuff up.

Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses. They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage. Some Bible translations do not even use the word “vision”, even if all translations used the word “vision,” that would not change the scriptures to say what soul sleep believers are trying to have us believe. They need to study about what the definitions of vision are. I guess those denominations also believe that it is merely a vision when Jesus transfigured. Jesus’ clothes became a dazzling white, whiter than anyone could bleach them. I call the soul sleep belief "the doctrine of death." They do not believe in the life of the spirit that Jesus gives to those he saves.

Kolibri said:
.two prophets that prefigured Jesus.
The "Samuel" was a demon impersonating "Samuel"

Impersonating Samuel being disturbed?

Kolibri said:
We can not discount Ecc 9:5,10. Nor the account of Lazarus "sleeping" in death.

You discount many scriptures.

Yes · Jan 23, 2015

moorea944 said:
Again, your thinking the spirit is something else that we have. Your taking it out of context.

Of course, the spirit is something we have.

Scripture tells us our spirit has a form.

Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form.

moorea944 said:
[Jesus shows us that after being tortured and dying that we continue to live in the spirit]
That is completely false. Jesus taught about the resurrection. There is nothing, nothing in death. When your dead, you are dead until the resurrection. "If", there is something in death, are you saying that you would be judged at death to go ether to heaven or hell? I dont see that at all, Jesus says that he will judge at his return.

After Jesus died on the cross, he went to the spirits of those who had died, even long ago. Jesus preached to these spirits.

moorea944 said:
Look at the other verses and chapters on those verses that use spirit. What is it really saying. "Soul, spirit and body". What is that to you and what does it really mean. Look up the words instead of putting your own beliefs into the bible. Soul and spirit can be written in many different ways. But never... something that was given to us at some point in our lives. Is there a verse that says that God gives us a "soul"? What does soul mean.. What does spirit mean in scripture and the org. lang? We should be making an effort to look into these matters. If we dont, we now go down a different path.

You are the one who will not listen to the truth.

moorea944 · Jan 23, 2015

Yes said:
Of course, the spirit is something we have.

Scripture tells us our spirit has a form.

Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form.

After Jesus died on the cross, he went to the spirits of those who had died, even long ago. Jesus preached to these spirits.

You are the one who will not listen to the truth.

[After Jesus died on the cross, he went to the spirits of those who had died, even long ago. Jesus preached to these spirits.]
Again, your using the word "spirits" wrong. When Jesus died, he was dead. He didnt go anywhere, esp, hell. He didnt go anywhere. Can you show me a verse that says he went somewhere?

Kolibri · Jan 23, 2015

Yes said:
Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses. They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage

The Greek word use for "vision" at Mt 17:9 is ho'ra-ma, also rendered "sight." You are correct that this word does not imply unreality, or delusion. With their literal eyes and ears, Peter, James, and John saw and heard the transfiguration. However because Moses and Elijah were dead, they could not be literally present. That is why when Peter suggested erecting 3 tents, Luke's account say "he did not realize what he was saying."

However I do stand corrected.
Moses and Elijah do not, in this case, represent Jesus, but Christ's anointed brothers. The reason is that such Christians, while still in the flesh, do a work similar to that performed by Moses and Elijah. For example, they serve as Jehovah’s witnesses, even in the face of persecution. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 8:1-8; Revelation 11:2-12) Like Moses and Elijah, they courageously expose false religion while exhorting sincere people to give God exclusive devotion. (Exodus 32:19, 20; Deuteronomy 4:22-24; 1 Kings 18:18-40). These "holy ones" are also "joint heirs with Christ" in his Kingdom. (Daniel 7:12,14,27; Romans 8:16,17; Revelation 3:21; 5:9,10; 14:1,3,4)

moorea944 · Jan 23, 2015

Yes said:
Of course, the spirit is something we have.

Scripture tells us our spirit has a form.

Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form.

After Jesus died on the cross, he went to the spirits of those who had died, even long ago. Jesus preached to these spirits.

You are the one who will not listen to the truth.

[Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form.]
No it doesnt. Again, your version of spirit is different. It is breath in that verse.

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit (breathe) of man within him." Should be breath. Translators put in spirit.

Yes · Jan 23, 2015

moorea944 said:
[Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form.]
No it doesnt. Again, your version of spirit is different. It is breath in that verse.

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit (breathe) of man within him." Should be breath. Translators put in spirit.

Our breath is not our spirit. You are saying anything just to protect your false beliefs.

Yes · Jan 23, 2015

Kolibri said:
The Greek word use for "vision" at Mt 17:9 is ho'ra-ma, also rendered "sight." You are correct that this word does not imply unreality, or delusion. With their literal eyes and ears, Peter, James, and John saw and heard the transfiguration. However because Moses and Elijah were dead, they could not be literally present.

That is merely your denial from unbelief and it means nothing.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Kolibri said:
That is why when Peter suggested erecting 3 tents, Luke's account say "he did not realize what he was saying."

Because spirits do not need tents on earth.

Kolibri said:
However I do stand corrected.
Moses and Elijah do not, in this case, represent Jesus, but Christ's anointed brothers. The reason is that such Christians, while still in the flesh, do a work similar to that performed by Moses and Elijah. For example, they serve as Jehovah’s witnesses, even in the face of persecution. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 8:1-8; Revelation 11:2-12) Like Moses and Elijah, they courageously expose false religion while exhorting sincere people to give God exclusive devotion. (Exodus 32:19, 20; Deuteronomy 4:22-24; 1 Kings 18:18-40). These "holy ones" are also "joint heirs with Christ" in his Kingdom. (Daniel 7:12,14,27; Romans 8:16,17; Revelation 3:21; 5:9,10; 14:1,3,4)

You speak against the Truth, for you claim that Jesus was speaking to false images

Yes · Jan 23, 2015

moorea944 said:
[After Jesus died on the cross, he went to the spirits of those who had died, even long ago. Jesus preached to these spirits.]
Again, your using the word "spirits" wrong. When Jesus died, he was dead. He didnt go anywhere, esp, hell. He didnt go anywhere. Can you show me a verse that says he went somewhere?

I have already shown you this before, but you are as a brainwashed person, like a robot, you cannot retain something new, for you are already programmed.

Read this and repent for saying this did not happen.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Kolibri · Jan 23, 2015

Yes said:
That is merely your denial from unbelief and it means nothing.

What purpose does this statement serve? If I said the same to you, would it mean anything?

Yes said:
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

You quote Matthew 22:32 but you may have neglected to go to the parallel account at Lu 20:37,38. You also may have overlooked Ro 4:17

He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him. - Luke 20:38

(This is just as it is written: "I have appointed you [Abraham] a father of many nations.") This was in the sight of God, in whom he had faith, who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they are. (Or possibly, "calls into existence what does not exist.") - Romans 4:17

These one's future resurrection is so sure it is as good as done. They are not alive now, as the general resurrection of mankind has not started yet.

Yes · Jan 23, 2015

Kolibri said:
What purpose does this statement serve? If I said the same to you, would it mean anything?

All you did was deny the truth. Your argument is that is just couldn't be. Of course, it could be, for nothing is impossible with God.

Kolibri said:
You quote Matthew 22:32 but you may have neglected to go to the parallel account at Lu 20:37,38. You also may have overlooked Ro 4:17

He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him. - Luke 20:38

(This is just as it is written: "I have appointed you [Abraham] a father of many nations.") This was in the sight of God, in whom he had faith, who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they are. (Or possibly, "calls into existence what does not exist.") - Romans 4:17

These one's future resurrection is so sure it is as good as done. They are not alive now, as the general resurrection of mankind has not started yet.

Why is it so hard for you? Jesus says God is not the God of the dead. You keep saying that they are not alive in the spirit but are dead. You are going against what Jesus says.

Kolibri · Jan 23, 2015

Yes said:
Why is it so hard for you? Jesus says God is not the God of the dead. You keep saying that they are not alive in the spirit but are dead. You are going against what Jesus says.

Have you ever seen in the movies or in reading books how someone is about to die, and they say "I'll always be with you right here". And points to the person's heart? These ones are kept safe in God's memory. They are not alive in the spirit but are safe, much like you may save a file on the computer, to be reopened later. "Their spirit goes out," in that day all future life prospects rest with Jehovah or his Son whom he puts in charge of judging mankind.

The Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus up because they would say "there is no resurrection." (Mt 22:23) The whole point of Jesus reply was to confirm that there will be a resurrection. To say that the dead still alive in someway is to deny any need for a resurrection, because obviously then dead would not really be dead after all.

No, Jesus words were to command belief that there will be a resurrection of the dead. (Mt 22:31) Now context is provided (along with relevant scriptures along the same topic), an accurate understanding of Mt 22:32 can be attested to. My question then becomes, why don't you want to see it? (Generally I seek to avoid that question.)

Spirit (Immortal) & Resurrection

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