JM2C
CHRISTIAN
I think you are confusing me with YES’ doctrine. I believe in the Trinity.
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Can someone explain the Trinity please...
- Thread starter Youtellme
- Start date
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
What is Adonai without the vowel points?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Yes, of course. If it wasn't, there would be a signifier of who /else/ was being referred to.
//If not, then the deific titles theory presented by those who say there is a need for all titles besides JHVH to be specified, is thusly problematic.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
That’s why we have to read the whole context and then analyze it exegetically, like the word “God” [SG2316], were all, except for a few, were applied exegetically to God the Father and the Lord Jesus as “God” [SG2316] and the Son of God [SG2316].
In the case of 2Cor 4:3-4 where it says “god” [SG2316] referring to satan, we could not mistakenly applied this word “god” [SG2316] to either God the Father or the Lord Jesus exegetically unless, of course, we translate it into another interpretation just to avoid the right meaning of the word.
If we go back to
Ro 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Cleary it says here, Christ “who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen” but with a different interpretation like the one you’ve presented here, Romans 9:5...."the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen."
thinking it could change the entire meaning of the verse, but if we read verse 1 where it says “ I say the truth in Christ, -Romans 9:1”, Paul undoubtedly was talking about the Lord Jesus Christ from verse 1 to verse 5 “who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Who else could have accused Him of blasphemy? Claiming to be the Son of God is making oneself “equal with God” according to the Jews.
Jn 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Claiming ”I and the Father are one –John 10:30” is “making Himself equal with God [John 5:18]” because He is “God’s Son –John 10:36” and that makes Him God, the Son of God.
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
So, why didn’t the Lord Jesus say “to our Father” and “to our God” instead?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Jesus never claimed to be equal to God at anytime. He always gave God glory in everything. "I and my Father are one' is not saying the he is God. He is one with the Father in mind and purpose. Remember, that God is working through His son.
[So, why didn’t the Lord Jesus say “to our Father” and “to our God” instead?]
Well, he sort of did. He just said it differently. We see that God is the father AND God of Jesus. Jesus is not God or co-equal with the Creator.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
The begetting is not like an event of time, however remote, but a fact irrespective of time. -Vines
of course in some bibles it would say differently just to avoid the truth.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
God the Father just called His Son, the Lord Jesus, God. “Thy throne, O God” and in verse 9 another vocative “Therefore God, your God”
No matter how you translate these verses into another version it will come out the same, and that is, God the Father calling His Son, the Lord Jesus, God.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
”That they may all be one” as is one body of Christ.
Those who are in the body of Christ are the true Christians. Are they, the True Christians in the body of Christ, as visible as those people inside the church building or belongs to a denomination?
Who place these “True Christians” into the body of Christ? Not by going to church, not by being a member of a denomination, not by being baptize into that denomination, not by adhering to their man made rules and regulations, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. All “True Christians” were baptized into one body subjectively into the body of Christ. Only God knows the hearts of the “True Christians”.
Ac 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
cataway
Well-Known Member
7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministersan a flame of fire.”o 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your thron forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”
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JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Why the blasphemy charge by the Jews if the Lord Jesus was not claiming to be the Son of God as equal with God? You have to read the whole context to be able to understand the blasphemy charge by the Jews.
He did say it but said it differently. You mean what the Lord Jesus really meant by “your Father” and “my Father” and “your God” and “my God” is the same thing as “our Father” and “our God”?
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
What the Lord Jesus said about himself would have been blasphemy if it were not true at all.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus accepted worship time and again, and not once did He ever correct his followers or redirect worship away from Himself to God.
The Bible states time and again that God alone is to be worshiped. Yet, Jesus accepted worship many times. He never once corrected His followers telling them not to worship Him, and He never redirected the worship away from Himself as others had done.
When the citizens of Lystra attempted to worship Paul and Barnabas because Paul had healed a lame man, Paul and Barnabas tore their clothes (Acts 14:8-18)
When the apostle John fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had revealed to him the message of Revelation, the angel responded, saying, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God” (Revelation 22:9
Jesus ALWAYS accepted worship, and not one time did He say, "Do not do that!" Not once did He redirect His followers and say, "Worship God" and not me. Jesus, obviously, believed He was deity.
Jesus accepted worship.
Those who saw Jesus walk on water worshiped Him (Matthew 14:33)
The blind man whom Jesus healed worshiped Him (John 9:38)
Mary Magdalene and the other women worshiped Jesus when He appeared to them after His resurrection (Matt. 28:9).
Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God (John 20:28)
The apostles worshiped Jesus on a mountain in Galilee (Matthew 28:17)
His disciples worshiped Him in Bethany (Luke 24:52)
Jesus never tried to correct His followers like the angel in Revelation or the apostle Paul in Acts 14 did.
And God didn't strike Jesus with deadly worms for not redirecting the praise He received from men the way He did to King Herod.
King Herod was eaten with worms because, instead of glorifying God Almighty, he allowed the people to glorify him as a god (Acts 12:21-23).
The Bible states time and again that God alone is to be worshiped. Yet, Jesus accepted worship many times. He never once corrected His followers telling them not to worship Him, and He never redirected the worship away from Himself as others had done.
When the citizens of Lystra attempted to worship Paul and Barnabas because Paul had healed a lame man, Paul and Barnabas tore their clothes (Acts 14:8-18)
When the apostle John fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had revealed to him the message of Revelation, the angel responded, saying, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God” (Revelation 22:9
Jesus ALWAYS accepted worship, and not one time did He say, "Do not do that!" Not once did He redirect His followers and say, "Worship God" and not me. Jesus, obviously, believed He was deity.
Jesus accepted worship.
Those who saw Jesus walk on water worshiped Him (Matthew 14:33)
The blind man whom Jesus healed worshiped Him (John 9:38)
Mary Magdalene and the other women worshiped Jesus when He appeared to them after His resurrection (Matt. 28:9).
Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God (John 20:28)
The apostles worshiped Jesus on a mountain in Galilee (Matthew 28:17)
His disciples worshiped Him in Bethany (Luke 24:52)
Jesus never tried to correct His followers like the angel in Revelation or the apostle Paul in Acts 14 did.
And God didn't strike Jesus with deadly worms for not redirecting the praise He received from men the way He did to King Herod.
King Herod was eaten with worms because, instead of glorifying God Almighty, he allowed the people to glorify him as a god (Acts 12:21-23).
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Sorry, but the NWT is a corrupt and biased paraphrase.
Furthermore, Jesus received worship right alongside of God in Revelation 5.
Notice in verse 8, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb. That is WORSHIP.
Notice in verse 11, the lamb is given honor, glory and praise.
Notice in verse 13, the one who sits on the throne (God) and the lamb are given honor, glory and praise. This is WORSHIP, and it is being given to both God and the lamb.
Notice in verse 14, the elders fell down and worshiped. In verse 8, the four living creatures fell down before the lamb.
God and the lamb share WORSHIP, not OBEISANCE!
Revelation 5
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Notice Jesus did not correct them. He allowed them to believe what they were saying.
Nada
#
Jesus even says in his own words "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.(Luke 18:19) (NIV bible)
If Jesus calls only God good and not himself,what makes you think he would allow himself to be worshipped? The holy scriptures makes it very clear that only God the Almighty is to be worshipped.
- Jehovah God the Almighty requires exclusive devotion.Those who bow before Jesus Christ are doing so to show obeisance.When they bow before God the Almighty they do so to worship.Jesus deserves obeisance because he sits at the right hand of God.
Here is something from a website.
"Is Jesus worthy of such obeisance? Most decidedly, yes! In his letter to the Hebrews, the apostle Paul explains that as the “heir of all things,” Jesus has “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.” (Hebrews 1:2-4) Thus, “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:10,11."
Is It Proper to Worship Jesus? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Another thing.Jesus himself fell with his face to the ground and worshipped and prayed to God the Almighty.Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (NIV bible)
Jesus worships and prays to God the Almighty.Jesus is not worshipped.
Nada
#
Here is something interesting.
"THROUGHOUT the centuries, many in Christendom have worshiped Jesus Christ as if he were Almighty God. Jesus himself, however, directed attention and worship only to Jehovah God. For example, when prodded to do an act of worship to the Devil, Jesus said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matthew 4:10) Later Jesus instructed his disciples: “Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.”—Matthew 23:9."
Is It Proper to Worship Jesus? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
John 4:23-24English Standard Version (ESV)
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jesus was searching out those who would worship his Father.Not himself.