Christians Only - What points of doctrine can I get wrong and still make it to Heaven

sojourner said:

You're treating heaven like a prize to be won, instead of a gift that has been given to you.

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Yes a wonder gift at that. But would you agree that you have to accept the gift? When I read the Bible and the passages on this thread it seems that the gift is Jesus and the reward is heaven. Yes/No?
If so the only way is Jesus. Making this OP is a great question, one I imagine all believers question. I'm not saying you said other wise.

Let me ask you. Who is the Alpha and Omega. Who is the Beggining and the End who is the First and the Last ? do you know ?

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These are all referring to Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

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Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Who is the Almighty?

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man,And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

Job 5:17
“ Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects;Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

Ezekiel 10:5
And the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard even in the outer court, like the voice of Almighty God when He speaks.

2 Corinthians 6:18
“ I will be a Father to you,And you shall be My sons and daughters,Says the LORD Almighty.”

John 1:1 says that the Word was God, but it also says that the Word was with God. The Word (Jesus) could very well have been God, but He could not also have been with God if He and His Father were one and the same. The word "with" means "being together, or in the company of." It denotes a relationship of some kind and makes no sense unless it is referring to two distinct entities.

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So you focus on the “Word was with God” but reject the “Word was God" because it does not make sense to you? So you do not believe that the “Word was God” after all. Even though twice you have agreed with John1 verse. Deep down you do not agree with it. because it does not conform to Your logic

John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word (Jesus) frequently prayed to His Father, almost always referring to Him as being "in Heaven." So, you have Jesus dwelling among us in flesh and His Father dwelling elsewhere and (at least from your perspective) being spirit. How can one substance simultaneously be a corporeal being dwelling on earth and a non-corporeal being dwelling either in heaven or (if you do not believe that God was in Heaven) existing everywhere at once?

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Once again because it does not make sence to you. Because you cannot rationalise this you cannot believe it.

If the Father and the Son share the title of God, they are both "God" and yet they can either be with each other, as was the case "in the beginning," or they can be separated, as was the case when Jesus left His Father's presence and came to earth. "A single substance," on the other hand, cannot be with itself nor can it be separated from itself.

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Why is Jesus called the Arm of God?

John 12
35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:


“ Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”[f]

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “ He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”[g]
41 These things Isaiah said when[h] he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Psalm 98
1 Oh, sing to the LORD a new song!
For He has done marvelous things;
His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory.
2 The LORD has made known His salvation;
His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations.
3 He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Jeremiah 32:17
‘Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You.


God and Jesus are One

John 20
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

John 14
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar said:

Once again because it does not make sence to you. Because you cannot rationalise this you cannot believe it.

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It has nothing whatsoever to do with rationalization. It has to do with interpretation. I do not interpret it in the same way you do.

God and Jesus are One

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You are absolutely correct. But none of the scriptures you have posted have proven that they are both part of a single substance. The question is not, "Are they one?" but "In what way are they one?"

Actually, that's not even the real question. The real question is the one I posed in my OP. Do you think that I must believe exactly as you do to be allowed into Heaven?

Adstar said:

So you focus on the “Word was with God” but reject the “Word was God" because it does not make sense to you? So you do not believe that the “Word was God” after all. Even though twice you have agreed with John1 verse. Deep down you do not agree with it. because it does not conform to Your logic

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ADSTAR - Please stop trying to convince people that God is a God of Confusion!
Doing so is a tactic of people desperate to find something to support their confusing and illogical dogma.

Our Heavenly Father loves us and wants us to return to Him. He is perfectly capable of talking to us in a way that we can understand. Our salvation is too important to Him to try to confuse us with stupid and eternally dangerous rhetoric. This earth life is not some big word game.

You want to toss scriptures around then I got one for ya - John 17:11

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Here God is asking our Father in Heaven to make and entire nation of people "ONE" as He and the Father are "ONE" Are we to suppose that Christ wants God to join all these people together as some strange corporeal being the way you claim that the Father and the Son are?

That my friend is pure, unadulterated confusion. To claim that the Lord does not want us to understand His words is ridiculous.

Or is it more reasonable to believe that He want them to be of one mind, one goal, righteousness, purity, faithfulness and so on the way He and the Father are.

Adstar said:

Because you cannot rationalize this you cannot believe it.

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That is right, If the Lord wants us to believe and then act on something then it is lunacy to believe that He would make it impossible for us to rationalize and understand what He wants of us.

It is a sad and damning thing when the word of God is twisted into something that is irrational, illogical, and in some cases, just down right stupid and then sewn together and patched up with surreal claims supported only by the massive cop-out that says "We just can't understand all thing, but it has got to be this way anyhow because I said so" Pardon me for being blunt but that is Hog-Wash.

Granted, there are things of God’s realm that we do not understand but that does not give us the right to make things up. God is my Heavenly Father, He loves me with a love that is beyond comprehension. If I fail to return to Him it won't be by any lack on His part to do everything in His power to help me. Confusing me to death is not helping. It is an insult to God to claim that He would be the author of such confusion.

There is no point in confusing mankind. God either gives us information in a manner that we can understand or He doesn’t give it to us. If we are confused it is because of one of two reasons. A man is not worthy of greater light and knowledge from the Holy Ghost or he has twisted what he has received into something that is confusing to contemplate

Adstar said:

John 14
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

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This scripture is perfectly logical and in no way denotes that Jesus Christ and the Father are one in the same being.

It is not unusual to know someone that you have never met by virtue of the study of their life, or being in the presence of someone who so closely personifies another that to know one is to know the other.

Jesus Christ spoke exactly as the Father would speak if He were there, Christ acted exactly as the Father would act if He were there. Jesus Christ so closely emulated the Father while He walked the Earth that to know one is to know the other.

One of the most stark indications that the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate individuals occurred when Jesus was being baptized

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:Verse 17
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
God was speaking from Heaven, the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove and Christ was being raised out of the water by John the Baptist.

Vandr

My, we have many with STRONG feelings about what the Bible says or doesn't say.

I, for one, am glad that my Lord never said:

I Opinions 13:34 "A new command I give you: Get the scriptures right. As I have been a legalist, so you must be a legalist. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you get the scriptures right."

However he DID say:

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

You know, I think I am just going to BELIEVE Peter when he writes:

I Peter 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. NIV

I would challenge ANY of you to find where Jesus proclaims that you will be saved by doctrine. He did not sacrifice himself just to bring yet another form of legalism! As I pointed out in my first post in this thread WHO WE LOVE is far, far more important than our doctrine. You will be judged by your FRUIT (actions), because they are the product of your HEART. The letter KILLS: it is your heart that really matters. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I agree with the Scott and Victor (not too surprising really) and NetDoc on this one. I'm pretty certain that God will forgive any number of honestly held but incorrect beliefs about Him so long as we love Him and follow Him to the best of our ability.

Positing that only an elite who have a correct understanding of God's nature are worthy of salvation is not Christianity, it's Gnosticism. Unfortunately such a view seems to be coming back into vogue even amongst groups who do not identify themselves as such.

James

JamesThePersian said:

I agree with the Scott and Victor (not too surprising really) and NetDoc on this one. I'm pretty certain that God will forgive any number of honestly held but incorrect beliefs about Him so long as we love Him and follow Him to the best of our ability.

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Well said. I also agree with NetDoc that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. However that doesn't mean that the other aspects of Christ's gospel should be discounted. Understanding correct doctrines is obviously important or why would Christ and the Apostles even bothered with it. I believe that we should try to understand and accept all of God's truths and fulfill all of God's commandments. I agree with Vandr on this point of doctrine and you all seem to be conceding that he may be right.

JamesThePersian said:

Positing that only an elite who have a correct understanding of God's nature are worthy of salvation is not Christianity, it's Gnosticism. Unfortunately such a view seems to be coming back into vogue even amongst groups who do not identify themselves as such.

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You have a good point but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to have a correct understanding of God's nature. In fact John 17:3 makes its sound quite important:

3.And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I believe that understanding the true nature of God greatly helps us to come to know Him better.

*yawn*

Squirt

Actually, that's not even the real question. The real question is the one I posed in my OP. Do you think that I must believe exactly as you do to be allowed into Heaven?

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No Squirt you did not ask "Do you think that I must believe exactly as you do to be allowed into Heaven?" what you asked was this

What, specifically, must I believe about Jesus Christ in order to go to Heaven someday? What, specifically, may I not believe about Jesus Christ if I'm to go there?

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You asked about things you must believe and things you must not believe not if you have to believe exactly as i do.

There are central doctrines of faith that must be believed then there are a lot of disputable matters or non-core issues.

So on the core issues yes you must believe in certain things. but apart from that you can believe differently to the correct position.

As an example. We have recently had a discussion upon the "rapture" in this forum. With Christians holding different beliefs on it. Some don't believe in it, some do. Some believe in pre tribulation rapture some people believe in a second coming rapture. Some believe we will be raptured in a body others believe we will be raptured without a body. This is a disputable matter a side issue of little importance.

But if a Christian says to me that they do not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead in his body, that Jesus was a kind of spirit /ghost when he appeared to the apostles after death then that is a core-issue that is a central teaching of the Gospel and that person is not saved.

There are certain things in the bible that are very hard to understand and other things that are very hard to believe. But that is where Faith/Trust in God comes into it. With the insight of the Holy Spirit we can understand much but there is always a need for an element of trust. in things that we do not understand. Its a case of saying, God i do not understand what you mean here but i trust in your Word as truth so i believe it even though i do not fully understand it. Or God i do not understand why Jesus told us to do that, it seems counter productive or even suicidal but i trust in Your guidance on the matter, You know what You are doing by giving us your will on the matter.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

JamesThePersian said:

I agree with the Scott and Victor (not too surprising really) and NetDoc on this one. I'm pretty certain that God will forgive any number of honestly held but incorrect beliefs about Him so long as we love Him and follow Him to the best of our ability.

Positing that only an elite who have a correct understanding of God's nature are worthy of salvation is not Christianity, it's Gnosticism. Unfortunately such a view seems to be coming back into vogue even amongst groups who do not identify themselves as such.

James

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Why do you discount God's ability and His love for us.

He makes His truth known to all who seek it with humility through the Holy Ghost. God is no respector of flesh and mercy cannot rob justice. The sacrafice of Christ provided an alternate path around the demands of justice that we have the ability, as mortals, to traverse but unless we seek to travel that path and keep His commandments He will declair that He "knows us not" when we look for Him as a medeator at the judgement bar of God. How can we keep commandments if we can't understand them or they make no sense to us?

Elite or not has nothing to do with it. I believe that this earth life, although the most important aspect of our journey to exaltation from an action point of view, is not the beginning or the end of that journey.

Just because we cannot comprehend what perfect justice is does not mean that we should judge God as an unjust person.

God has given each person the ability to return to His presence but it does require work. After all if it were not so then this whole earth experience would be a futile game in where the game master already knows the outcome. What would be the point?

It has been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Lets get all the facts and aquire the understanding of them that only the Holy Ghost can provide before we hang our eternal salvation on what we believe. If you want all the facts, oue Heavenky Father is ready and willing to take each of us by the hand and lead us in the sure path but we must seek to be led. Marking your own path is pointless. There is a reason that the path is said to be straight and narrow. Think about it.

Vandr

Polaris said:

Well said. I also agree with NetDoc that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. However that doesn't mean that the other aspects of Christ's gospel should be discounted. Understanding correct doctrines is obviously important or why would Christ and the Apostles even bothered with it.

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Jesus didn't. He gave us two commandments and anyone who looks at his ministry sees that the man practiced what he preached.

As for the apostles, they kept trying to keep EVERYONE ELSE from going down the slippery slope of ADDING AND SUBTRACTING to what? Not the "doctrine" of Jesus, but his GOSPEL: the Great News.

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. NIV

Polaris said:

I believe that we should try to understand and accept all of God's truths and fulfill all of God's commandments.

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Of course we should. By the time I die, I will have figured out about a tenth of this "Love Everyone Else" stuff. The rest will just have to wait until I finish up with this commandment!

NetDoc said:

Jesus didn't. He gave us two commandments and anyone who looks at his ministry sees that the man practiced what he preached.

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John 3:5 sure sounds like a commandment to be baptised to me. You are right though, he practiced what he preached -- he was baptised.

Adstar said:

You asked about things you must believe and things you must not believe not if you have to believe exactly as i do.

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You're right. I apologize.

There are central doctrines of faith that must be believed then there are a lot of disputable matters or non-core issues.

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Who decides what the "central doctrines" are? And where the Bible say that these must be believed if a person is to be saved? Belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior is one thing, but beyond that, where do you draw the line?

Before you are baptised, you are not a Christian. After you are a Christian you are FREE from ALL of the Laws that you or any other man try to impose on us.

NetDoc said:

Before you are baptised, you are not a Christian. After you are a Christian you are FREE from ALL of the Laws that you or any other man try to impose on us.

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I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. So do you agree that baptism is a commandment? Are you saying that after baptism the commandments don't apply to you?

I never judge what people need to get into heaven beyond their belief and morals, to some extent anyway...

Squirt said:

You're right. I apologize. [/color][/color]

[/color]

Who decides what the "central doctrines" are? And where the Bible say that these must be believed if a person is to be saved? Belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior is one thing, but beyond that, where do you draw the line?

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God does. But each one of us draws a line; Some are guided by the Holy Spirit as to where that line is. But how can one "prove" where that line is? All we can do is share our thoughts on the matter and Let the Holy Spirit convict.

Maybe it would be best for you to go directly to God and ask Him where that line is and ask Him to guide you to the truth you need to know and accept. In the end it’s a relationship between you and God. We humans can talk of these things and agree or disagree. God often speaks to us through others, through fellowship.

I have backed of on the Issue of the "Word of God" because while i have my belief i do not consider it essential for anyone to actually understand the nature of the connection between Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. I made a mistake in pressing the issue.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Polaris said:

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. So do you agree that baptism is a commandment? Are you saying that after baptism the commandments don't apply to you?

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You don't have to understand me: just the scriptures. Christians are FREE from all of the letters of the law. The letter kills while the Spirit gives life!

Adstar said:

Maybe it would be best for you to go directly to God and ask Him where that line is and ask Him to guide you to the truth you need to know and accept. In the end it’s a relationship between you and God.

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Well, I don't really feel the need to ask God to guide me to the truth I need to know and accept, because I feel as if He has already led me there.

I have backed of on the Issue of the "Word of God" because while i have my belief i do not consider it essential for anyone to actually understand the nature of the connection between Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. I made a mistake in pressing the issue.

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I'm glad to hear you say that. I, too, have my beliefs on this topic, but I feel confident that even though God wants us to have a correct understanding of His nature and His relationship to His Son, it is less important to Him that we get all the answers right than it is that we understand Jesus' message of love and forgiveness and learn to incorporate it into our lives.

NetDoc said:

You don't have to understand me: just the scriptures. Christians are FREE from all of the letters of the law. The letter kills while the Spirit gives life!

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Okay, NetDoc, you're talking in circles. First you say that it is impossible for a person to be a Christian until he is baptized. Then you say that Christians are not held to any of Christ's commandments other than to love God and one's neighbor. To me this sounds as if God is extremely legalistic in what He expects of us in order for us to become Christians in the first place, but that after we are Christians, He suddenly requires absolutely nothing of us except love. You know, I really like you, but you have some of the most unconventional interpretations of scripture I think I've ever heard.