• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Maybe god did not consciously create the universe, but logic did.

1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The laws of logic, an obsession of mine as many here know. They've fascinated me for years because of their undefeatable, well, logic. One cannot deny that A is A without being bound to the fact that A is A. It's impossible. But strangely I've always viewed this as the best evidence for god.

In a way, the laws of logic are like a prison, without them there would be no division between any one thing. No you or I, us or them. Many times I've thought that this simply did not seem right. They aren't a physical force, they're ideological in nature.

Anyways, I could rant a while but let's skip it. When I think of the original "god" I think 'all knowing, all powerful, timeless, insepratable, etc.'. Through my studies I've seen this is a common idea. But when logic is added to the equation, there must be separate things. God being all knowing means that he cannot be ignorant. God being timeless means he can't be temporal. This creates a contradiction, and to correct that contradiction we got a universe split between spiritual and physical.

Just a thought.
 
Avi1001

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
1137 said:
The laws of logic, an obsession of mine as many here know. They've fascinated me for years because of their undefeatable, well, logic. One cannot deny that A is A without being bound to the fact that A is A. It's impossible. But strangely I've always viewed this as the best evidence for god.

In a way, the laws of logic are like a prison, without them there would be no division between any one thing. No you or I, us or them. Many times I've thought that this simply did not seem right. They aren't a physical force, they're ideological in nature.

Anyways, I could rant a while but let's skip it. When I think of the original "god" I think 'all knowing, all powerful, timeless, insepratable, etc.'. Through my studies I've seen this is a common idea. But when logic is added to the equation, there must be separate things. God being all knowing means that he cannot be ignorant. God being timeless means he can't be temporal. This creates a contradiction, and to correct that contradiction we got a universe split between spiritual and physical.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Sounds more reasonable than G-d creating the universe.....but do you think, maybe, it has something to do with mass and energy....???....;)
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
1137 said:
But when logic is added to the equation, there must be separate things
Click to expand...

I tend to be cautious on ideas like this. Logic is a creation of the human mind which appears to describe some aspects of experience and the natural world, but assuming it applies to the universe as whole, or to God, seems like a stretch.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Avi1001 said:
Sounds more reasonable than G-d creating the universe.....but do you think, maybe, it has something to do with mass and energy....???....;)
Click to expand...

Mass / energy are physical.

Spiny Norman said:
I tend to be cautious on ideas like this. Logic is a creation of the human mind which appears to describe some aspects of experience and the natural world, but assuming it applies to the universe as whole, or to God, seems like a stretch.
Click to expand...

This is like your thing with numbers I think. Logic isn't something "made up", it's something observed and then described.
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
1137 said:
Logic isn't something "made up", it's something observed and then described.
Click to expand...

But, like number, logic is a creation of the human mind. I think we need to be cautious about projecting human concepts out onto the universe, or giving them some undeserved ontological status based on wishful thinking.
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Tlaloc said:
Not claiming I do. I'm saying that Psychoslice's comment is contradictory.


How does the universe create itself before it exists?
Click to expand...
The universe has always existed, there is no beginning or end, you will never get your little brain around that.
 
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
psychoslice said:
The universe has always existed, there is no beginning or end, you will never get your little brain around that.
Click to expand...
Then it can't be created, since to be created means it must be contingent on a creator. Your grasp of elementary English is suspect.

On to your new claim, the universe is a non-contingent and therefore necessary, how do you square that with modern cosmology that indicates a definite beginning of the universe?

Also, no need for insults. Especially when we're all in a glass house.
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Tlaloc said:
Then it can't be created, since to be created means it must be contingent on a creator. Your grasp of elementary English is suspect.

On to your new claim, the universe is a non-contingent and therefore necessary, how do you scare that with modern cosmology that indicates a definite beginning of the universe?

Also, no need for insults. Especially when we're all in a glass house.
Click to expand...
Excuse me bud, but I never insulted you, that's how you interpreted it, stop feeling sorry for yourself, and see the writing on the wall.
 
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
psychoslice said:
Excuse me bud, but I never insulted you, that's how you interpreted it, stop feeling sorry for yourself, and see the writing on the wall.
Click to expand...
The universe has always existed, there is no beginning or end, you will never get your little brain around that.

Also, what writing on the wall? You're not making sense.

My real question to you is what makes you so certain about any of your apparent 'facts' here? All you have made are baseless assertions.
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Tlaloc said:
The universe has always existed, there is no beginning or end, you will never get your little brain around that.

Also, what writing on the wall? You're not making sense.

My real question to you is what makes you so certain about any of your apparent 'facts' here?
Click to expand...
My truth is from within, its my own experience, not someone else's second hand knowledge, so I say to you, find your own inner truth.
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Tlaloc said:
.... modern cosmology that indicates a definite beginning of the universe?
Click to expand...

Sure, it indicates a beginning to this universe, but cosmologists are now exploring various theories, for example our universe being the latest in a series, or one of many.
It's worth observing here that the principle of cause and effect is a feature of space-time, and space-time is a product of the big bang, so we can't assume the principle of cause and effect "prior" to the big bang. We really don't have the language to describe it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top