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Ask me about the Third Reich, National Socialism, Hitler & the Holocaust

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
The wisdom of the ages is that the original sin is knowledge of good and evil. That it is "original" means that it is the main manipulating sin. So in all sin you will likely find that the original sin plays a key role. And so should nazism also be understood in terms of original sin.

The nazi's committed the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is to propose as fact what is good and evil, instead of leaving good and evil a matter of opinion for the spirit to decide.

That is very clearly shown with social darwinism, they proposed as pseudoscientific fact what is good and evil. This sin of social darwinism manipulated the other sins of murder and mayhem, as is clearly shown in the books and speeches of the main figures.

If one proposes as fact what is good and evil, then your behaviour is no longer deffered to who you are as a decisionmaker, but behaviour is deferred to the "scientific" morality to calculate the "best" action. The scientific morality sorts out the best result, using the facts about what is good and evil as sorting criteria. You as a decionmaker are just calculating, sorting, and don't get to decide anything, because the scientific morality won't let you.

The original sin makes people feel high like a monkey in a coconut tree, the way of thought to introduce factual certitude in what is properly a matter of opinion, releases drugs in the brain. You could see the smug high in the eyes of the nazi's knowing with factual certitude the value of their own blood. It is very addictive, and addictions can be enormously difficult to deal with.

The guilt is very widely spread in German society, and with other societies, because all countries engaged to a very significant extent in social darwinism.

And still to this day social darwinism is widespread and on the rise. I can tell you, I have supported the validity of subjectivity for more than 10 years on the internet, and things are only getting worse. I can count exactly 0 people who completely agree with me that subjectivity is valid. There is still significant acknowledgement that social darwinism is wrong in reference to the "naturalistic fallacy", that one cannot get an ought from an is, but there is widespread structural undermining of all subjectivity with the overwhelming great majority of anybody I see on forums on the internet. The original sin lays deep within the psyche of any human being.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I doubt it to be honest. Madmen are nothing new, had Hitler won the world would be a little different - but probably not much so. Hitler was still nuts and would most likely have lost the next elections had he lived to see them.
...

There weren't going to be elections after the war.
I read a few "traditional German perspectives", in this thread, and I have never accepted them. This description that you offer, is a cop-out, a rationalization, an excuse for German behavior during the period of Nazi Germany. The Germans are, and have always been too intelligent to....not have known what was going on...I don't buy it...!!!!
You severely underestimate the ability of the Nazi system to keep a secret. That's the only thing they could do well. You also don't seem to realize the Nazis went to extreme lengths to keep the Death Camps a secret. Look at where they were placed. The middle of nowhere and surrounded by a perimeter where anyone getting too close was shot.
Here's the second misconception....the Germans were bad...but no worse than the rest of Europe....I'm not buying this one, either....the Germans have always been the most nationalistic and worst in Europe....but you're right....Poland and Russia give them a run for the money...!!!!
I'm talking pure Antisemitism, not nationalism. There's a difference.
Another very strange view..."appealing" to whom...????
To me. The psychopath. Literally. I'm diagnosed with borderline anti-social personality disorder.
And you are trying to convince us that your view makes sense...????

Overall.....I would say you have a lot of knowledge of WWII and the Nazi's.....but you are perpetuating the rationalization of benign German behavior....unfortunately, there was much....pure evil...that really cannot be explained any other way...!!!!...

Also, I note that the last 4 posts that I responded to....as well as this whole thread...are essentially your opinion.....I believe without even a single reference.....can you provide any reputable references to support these speculations...???
...

What inspired this thread was two things. The "Should we forgive Hitler?" and "Denying the Holocaust" thread. Where I went on and on about the atrocities committed. I've been to most of the Camps.

As far as the last four posts, I was responding to people asking hypothetical questions. I've got an 88kb Word Doc about Nazi war aims if you're interested, sourced.
Yeah the overall tone of the thread seems to be a anti Jewish, German apologist, Hitler didn't do a good enough job, kind of attitude.
...

Fuuck you. I am not anti-Jewish or an anti-Semite. Some of the people posting here may be, but I am not. I've spent most of this thread detailing the utter insanity of the Nazi world-goal.
Bingo....it's couched in detailed explanations....but the underlying thesis is clear....!!!!....and it's unfortunate......you are no Nietzsche, sir...!!!!
I would hope I was not Nietzsche. I strive to be an Overman, my own morality, my own ethics, my own decisions. To emulate Nietzsche in any way other than convergent views adopted through both of our attempts of forging our own, distinct moralities would be to defile the very notion of the Overman.


To you and Lyndon; I'm expecting an apology.
The 'what ifs' cloud the actual information with make believe 'purpose'. Hmm sort of like looking at a painting and describing the intended meaning of the art as opposed to artistic techniques.
This is a thread where other people ASK ME questions. I'm doing my best to tell them what I think, backed up with what I know. If you didn't mean to sound accusational here, I apologize, but after Lyndon and Avi's posts I'm a little riled.
Hello Nietzsche,
Sometimes US members mention how the US saved the UK during the 39-45 war.
Suppose that the US had not, and that Europe and the UK had all been overrun and incorporated into Hitler's empire.....
How do you think we Brits would have coped?
Where would we Brits be 'at' now?

Thanx Old-B
Germany could never invade Britain. The Royal Navy is too large. Now, starved it? Yes. But never invade. Not without expanding its naval program to the point that it would seriously deplete the Wehrmacht Heer & Luftwaffe of materials.
I wonder. Nazi Germany would have to deal with its own lack of vision and with the advance of the Soviets from East.

I have a hard time attempting to believe the Nazi regime could last. The USA participation in WW2 shortened its life somewhat and greatly reduced Soviet influence in Germany, but I think it is quite a stretch to call it decisive in defeating Hitler.
The Soviet Union was decisive because it was the only one actually striking German territory until 1944. Without the Soviet Union tying up the best of the Wehrmacht, the Western Powers would've had a far harder time defeating the Reich. It would've resulted in Second-Sunrises over at least Berlin.

And much like in Japan, when it became clear the Reich was about to fall, it would mobilize and seek to grab as much as possible.

The Western Powers could have defeated Germany. But would've been a close, hard, bitter fight. However, on the flip side, the Soviet Union could have taken Germany on her own if Germany makes similar strategic errors. But it would've been an even more bitter fight.
 
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Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
The wisdom of the ages is that the original sin is knowledge of good and evil. That it is "original" means that it is the main manipulating sin. So in all sin you will likely find that the original sin plays a key role. And so should nazism also be understood in terms of original sin.

The nazi's committed the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is to propose as fact what is good and evil, instead of leaving good and evil a matter of opinion for the spirit to decide.

That is very clearly shown with social darwinism, they proposed as pseudoscientific fact what is good and evil. This sin of social darwinism manipulated the other sins of murder and mayhem, as is clearly shown in the books and speeches of the main figures.

If one proposes as fact what is good and evil, then your behaviour is no longer deffered to who you are as a decisionmaker, but behaviour is deferred to the "scientific" morality to calculate the "best" action. The scientific morality sorts out the best result, using the facts about what is good and evil as sorting criteria. You as a decionmaker are just calculating, sorting, and don't get to decide anything, because the scientific morality won't let you.

The original sin makes people feel high like a monkey in a coconut tree, the way of thought to introduce factual certitude in what is properly a matter of opinion, releases drugs in the brain. You could see the smug high in the eyes of the nazi's knowing with factual certitude the value of their own blood. It is very addictive, and addictions can be enormously difficult to deal with.

The guilt is very widely spread in German society, and with other societies, because all countries engaged to a very significant extent in social darwinism.

And still to this day social darwinism is widespread and on the rise. I can tell you, I have supported the validity of subjectivity for more than 10 years on the internet, and things are only getting worse. I can count exactly 0 people who completely agree with me that subjectivity is valid. There is still significant acknowledgement that social darwinism is wrong in reference to the "naturalistic fallacy", that one cannot get an ought from an is, but there is widespread structural undermining of all subjectivity with the overwhelming great majority of anybody I see on forums on the internet. The original sin lays deep within the psyche of any human being.
Social Darwinism. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Not when referring to the modern world anyway.

And if you're going to post quasi-philosohpical, poorly researched screeds, make your own thread. This is for questions and a little debate regarding the NSADP Deutsch-Reich.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The Western Powers could have defeated Germany. But would've been a close, hard, bitter fight. However, on the flip side, the Soviet Union could have taken Germany on her own if Germany makes similar strategic errors. But it would've been an even more bitter fight.

Doubtlessly. All the same, I simply don't see how Nazi Germany could very well last, dreaded as the price for ending it was.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Doubtlessly. All the same, I simply don't see how Nazi Germany could very well last, dreaded as the price for ending it was.
Oh, it wouldn't last. The moment Hitler died there would be a struggle for power, perhaps even a flat-out civil war. The Wehrmacht vs the SS mainly, with the Technocrats like Speer likely tipping the balance in the Wehrmacht's favour.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Social Darwinism. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Not when referring to the modern world anyway.

And if you're going to post quasi-philosohpical, poorly researched screeds, make your own thread. This is for questions and a little debate regarding the NSADP Deutsch-Reich.

The problem with doing history about social darwinism is that it is basically scientists examining themselves. And one can more easily make up excuses if one is examining one's own faults. I don't think you have a clue about nazism really, and that is why you couldn't provide a practical answer on how to pretend to be be an SS officer.

(K. Fischer, Nazi Germany: A New History)

"The message embodied in these doctrines was unmistakable: any living organism is engaged in a ceaseless struggle for existence and is doomed to extinction if it does not fight. Nations, like individuals, are also engaged in a ceaseless conflict in which only the fittest can hope to survive. The fighting quality of a nation depends upon its racial purity and its ability to breed the fittest specimens in the form of productive workers, savage fighters, and charismatic leaders. Those who defile a race of people Jews, Gypsies, Asiatic inferiors must be eliminated through appropriate state measures. Of all the human racial stocks, the Aryan race clearly represents the apex of human achievement; and since Germany is the homeland of the Aryan race, the German people are charged with a sacred mission to propagate the Aryan race and dominate the world. Racial mongrelization, however, has gone so far that the hour may be late indeed. Only state intervention can protect the Aryan race from further infections by inferior races."
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
The problem with doing history about social darwinism is that it is basically scientists examining themselves. And one can more easily make up excuses if one is examining one's own faults. I don't think you have a clue about nazism really, and that is why you couldn't provide a practical answer on how to pretend to be be an SS officer.

(K. Fischer, Nazi Germany: A New History)

"The message embodied in these doctrines was unmistakable: any living organism is engaged in a ceaseless struggle for existence and is doomed to extinction if it does not fight. Nations, like individuals, are also engaged in a ceaseless conflict in which only the fittest can hope to survive. The fighting quality of a nation depends upon its racial purity and its ability to breed the fittest specimens in the form of productive workers, savage fighters, and charismatic leaders. Those who defile a race of people Jews, Gypsies, Asiatic inferiors must be eliminated through appropriate state measures. Of all the human racial stocks, the Aryan race clearly represents the apex of human achievement; and since Germany is the homeland of the Aryan race, the German people are charged with a sacred mission to propagate the Aryan race and dominate the world. Racial mongrelization, however, has gone so far that the hour may be late indeed. Only state intervention can protect the Aryan race from further infections by inferior races."
I would like everyone in this thread to be so kind as to tell me, do I "not have a clue about Nazism"?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Germans are, and have always been too intelligent to....not have known what was going on...I don't buy it...!!!!
As with so many things, the truth lies in-between.

It was common knowledge that Jews and other "undesirables" were being gathered up, put in camps, and had their property taken away. It was also common knowledge after a while that these people never showed up again. But what what was not common knowledge were the existence of death camps.

Yes, rumors were widespread about mass murders, and of course we eventually came to know these "rumors" were true, but we also know a lot of people didn't really believe them. Many no doubt didn't want to believe them, and many no doubt didn't really care as long as it wasn't a threat to them.

But the fact remains that so many saw people who were not guilty of anything being arrested, removed, and property confiscated, yet most did nothing. Could they have? Yes. When it became common knowledge that the NAZI's and collaborators were killing elderly hospital patients and those mentally ill, many took to the streets in protest, and the NAZI's stopped the practice.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
As with so many things, the truth lies in-between.

It was common knowledge that Jews and other "undesirables" were being gathered up, put in camps, and had their property taken away. It was also common knowledge after a while that these people never showed up again. But what what was not common knowledge were the existence of death camps.

Yes, rumors were widespread about mass murders, and of course we eventually came to know these "rumors" were true, but we also know a lot of people didn't really believe them. Many no doubt didn't want to believe them, and many no doubt didn't really care as long as it wasn't a threat to them.

But the fact remains that so many saw people, who were not guilty of anything, being arrested, removed, property confiscated, and yet most did nothing. Could they have? Yes. When it became common knowledge that the NAZI's and their many collaborators were killing hospital patients and those mentally ill, many took to the streets in protest, and the NAZI's stopped the practice.
Don't forget also that people who asked questions found themselves in the same camps.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
As with so many things, the truth lies in-between.

It was common knowledge that Jews and other "undesirables" were being gathered up, put in camps, and had their property taken away. It was also common knowledge after a while that these people never showed up again. But what what was not common knowledge were the existence of death camps.

Yes, rumors were widespread about mass murders, and of course we eventually came to know these "rumors" were true, but we also know a lot of people didn't really believe them. Many no doubt didn't want to believe them, and many no doubt didn't really care as long as it wasn't a threat to them.

But the fact remains that so many saw people who were not guilty of anything being arrested, removed, and property confiscated, yet most did nothing. Could they have? Yes. When it became common knowledge that the NAZI's and collaborators were killing elderly hospital patients and those mentally ill, many took to the streets in protest, and the NAZI's stopped the practice.

Sure, I have heard this "excuse" over the years since WWII....the Germans did not know the concentration camps were killing people. It's almost a form of Holocaust denial. It borders on....the German people were the victims...:(
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Sure, I have heard this "excuse" over the years since WWII....the Germans did not know the concentration camps were killing people. It's almost a form of Holocaust denial. It borders on....the German people were the victims...:(
So there were no German Jews? Or German Socialists, Communists, Free Masons, ect, ect, ect? And don't you ****ing dare throw around Holocaust denial like it's some cheap word.

The German people know about the CONCENTRATION Camps. But every state on the planet has used CONCENTRATION camps at one point or another. Their purpose was to keep dissidents in in one place, away from the general population. But the Death Camps? The Crematoriums? The mass-graves? That was something the average German knew nothing about, and if he heard rumours of it, didn't want to believe.

There is a huge difference between "I hate Jews" and "We're going to kill all the Jews".

I am still waiting for your apology.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
...

There weren't going to be elections after the war.

I think that depends how one defines elections. :D

Reichstags Election ballot 1936
Wahlzettel-3.-Reich.jpg


Austrian Anschluss ballot 1938
Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg


Sudetenland ballot 1938

Volebn%C3%AD_fra%C5%A1ka_v_Sudetech.jpg
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Don't forget also that people who asked questions found themselves in the same camps.
Absolutely, and the NAZI's had so many collaborators that even family members sometimes didn't trust each other.

I remember one historian saying that he believes that Hitler and the NAZI's had maybe as high as an 80% "approval" rating at peak, and that figure frankly doesn't surprise me as the NAZI's knew how to put on powerful "shows" and strong and effective appeals to patriotism. Goebbels was a master at propaganda-- unfortunately.

BTW, as I'm sure you're aware of, after the war was over it was hard to find hardly anyone who said they collaborated with the NAZI's. About 15 years ago, I went to a seminar by a 25 or so year old woman (Christian) from a town in Germany that took pride in not collaborating with the NAZI's, so she decided to write a term paper on the subject during her senior year.

She went through the local paper's archives, and was totally shocked to see that the opposite was mostly true. After she wrote her paper and submitted it, people became so outraged that she literally not only had to leave the town but also she decided to leave the country.

She found that so many of the town's leaders very much collaborated, even though they claimed otherwise, and then when her paper exposed them they either denied the paper was correct or said they did what they had to do to protect the town's people.

As oft been said, "the first casualty in war is Truth".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sure, I have heard this "excuse" over the years since WWII....the Germans did not know the concentration camps were killing people. It's almost a form of Holocaust denial. It borders on....the German people were the victims...:(
Even though knowledge of the death camps wasn't common in Germany, the fact remains that there were gunshots and even some burning of bodies at some of the concentration camps that should have tipped off many living locally what was at least happening in general. If anyone has ever smelled burnt human flesh, they would know almost instantly that the smell was not of regular meat.

But it is also important not to give the German people a free-pass on this. The NAZI's were brutal even before taking power, and their brutality increased and was very well known throughout Germany after they took power. Again, Hitler and the NAZI's became very popular in spite of these actions, and not only did the propaganda do it's job, also the rapid expansion of the German economy that created a lot of jobs and prosperity that so many benefited from.

And, I hate to say this, there was so much collaboration from the churches as well. Even after the war was over, many church leaders helped to hide, protect, and even arrange for some NAZI's to leave the country.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Even though knowledge of the death camps wasn't common in Germany, the fact remains that there were gunshots and even some burning of bodies at some of the concentration camps that should have tipped off many living locally what was at least happening in general. If anyone has ever smelled burnt human flesh, they would know almost instantly that the smell was not of regular meat.

But it is also important not to give the German people a free-pass on this. The NAZI's were brutal even before taking power, and their brutality increased and was very well known throughout Germany after they took power. Again, Hitler and the NAZI's became very popular in spite of these actions, and not only did the propaganda do it's job, also the rapid expansion of the German economy that created a lot of jobs and prosperity that so many benefited from.

And, I hate to say this, there was so much collaboration from the churches as well. Even after the war was over, many church leaders helped to hide, protect, and even arrange for some NAZI's to leave the country.

No doubt true....but what's more amazing....is that German anti-semitism of the 20th century.....has been replaced by French anti-semitism of the 21st century......Europe continues to evolve....:(...... Je Suis Charlie...!!!!
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
No doubt true....but what's more amazing....is that German anti-semitism of the 20th century.....has been replaced by French anti-semitism of the 21st century......Europe continues to evolve....:(...... Je Suis Charlie...!!!!
I'm waiting for an apology.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
...To me. The psychopath. Literally. I'm diagnosed with borderline anti-social personality disorder.....
I am sorry that you are mentally ill.....but, no apologies needed for any of my comments....they are all true.
 
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