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the pope: freedom of expression vs. "offending" (he's wrong)

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes there are limits. My rule of thumb is that it's okay to criticize ideas, and not very useful to criticize people, unless they've decided to hold positions of power. Hebdo was satirizing ideas.

Legally okay doesn't necessarily mean socially okay. Thing is, not all ideas have the same relationships to people. In many cases, they are tied together so strongly that criticizing one automatically means criticizing the other(whether that's "fair" or "reasonable" or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's the case). This is particularly true when it comes to criticizing ideas held by cultures rather than individuals; it might help to consider that many people consider certain cultural customs and values to be just as sacrosanct to them as freedom of speech is to us (even if their customs, in and of themselves, aren't directly comparable to ours).

In this particular instance, I haven't taken a look at what Hebdo actually created that was so offensive, because I consider it irrelevant to what ultimately happened. I don't care how offensive a satirical work is, I have absolutely no empathy for the shooters or the ones who support them. Just to make that clear.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Legally okay doesn't necessarily mean socially okay. Thing is, not all ideas have the same relationships to people. In many cases, they are tied together so strongly that criticizing one automatically means criticizing the other(whether that's "fair" or "reasonable" or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's the case). This is particularly true when it comes to criticizing ideas held by cultures rather than individuals; it might help to consider that many people consider certain cultural customs and values to be just as sacrosanct to them as freedom of speech is to us (even if their customs, in and of themselves, aren't directly comparable to ours).

In this particular instance, I haven't taken a look at what Hebdo actually created that was so offensive, because I consider it irrelevant to what ultimately happened. I don't care how offensive a satirical work is, I have absolutely no empathy for the shooters or the ones who support them. Just to make that clear.

I understand the notion that people become strongly identified with their ideas. But what should we do when we believe that a set of ideas is dangerous? Isn't satire an effective and relatively humane approach to combating dangerous ideas?
 

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
I understand the notion that people become strongly identified with their ideas. But what should we do when we believe that a set of ideas is dangerous? Isn't satire an effective and relatively humane approach to combating dangerous ideas?

I strongly identified with the idea that Nintendo was better than Sega in the 90s.

If my friend showed up wearing a Sonic the Hedgehog t-shirt and told me that not only was his Mega Drive better than my Super NES but that Mario was a wanker... Would if be okay if I sucker punched him, do you think?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I understand the notion that people become strongly identified with their ideas. But what should we do when we believe that a set of ideas is dangerous? Isn't satire an effective and relatively humane approach to combating dangerous ideas?

For our culture, it is. But for other cultures, it could potentially drive an even deeper wedge, since the parties being satirized are likely to feel bullied, and thus prone to falling into extremists' traps in desperation to be "vindicated".

That has to be remembered: what works for one culture isn't necessarily going to work for another. Speaking to another culture means speaking with its language and customs.

I strongly identified with the idea that Nintendo was better than Sega in the 90s.

BURN THE WITCH! BURN THE WITCH!

(I was, and am, a Sonic fan. ^_^)

If my friend showed up wearing a Sonic the Hedgehog t-shirt and told me that not only was his Mega Drive better than my Super NES but that Mario was a wanker... Would if be okay if I sucker punched him, do you think?

Kidding aside, if you were a child, I'd probably "expect" it, but it certainly wouldn't be okay. An external force having a causal connection to violent behavior does not excuse said behavior.

I think the comparison you use is actually far more relevant than people seem to realize. Hardcore fandoms, from what I've seen, often display behaviors that, to me, are highly reminiscent of hardcore religious fanatics. Even down to using violence (or at least threatening it) in retaliation for being offended. (Take the abuse that Anita Sarkeesian, and many others like her, have had to deal with simply for sharing their critical opinions.)
 

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
I think the comparison you use is actually far more relevant than people seem to realize. Hardcore fandoms, from what I've seen, often display behaviors that, to me, are highly reminiscent of hardcore religious fanatics. Even down to using violence (or at least threatening it) in retaliation for being offended. (Take the abuse that Anita Sarkeesian, and many others like her, have had to deal with simply for sharing their critical opinions.)

I totally agree which is why it sprung to mind so easily actually.

I remember those days with some fondness but it's hard for me to believe now how SERIOUSLY we all took it back then. Complete with cartoons being submitted to magazines with Mario ripping Sonics spine out via his head and such and the following threats of dire consequences. There would be appropriate ways to dress for each faction, jargon unique to each side, we had our own symbols etc.

The parallels to religious conflict are startling frankly. The difference was, we were expected to grow up and stop that rubbish. I'm still a fan of old Ninty to this day, but ones own maturity tends to allow one to see the ridiculousness in that kind of thing.

Whereas religion is treated so gravely and you even now have the Pope effectively making excuses for bad behaviour. Punching somebody for insulting your mother is not "normal". What world does this guy live in?

I really can't help but look at these situations and what are effectively members of Muhammad fandom acting out and then someone else's Dad saying you shouldn't have said Muhammad was a butthead if you didn't want to get hit. It's profoundly stupid.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
For our culture, it is. But for other cultures, it could potentially drive an even deeper wedge, since the parties being satirized are likely to feel bullied, and thus prone to falling into extremists' traps in desperation to be "vindicated".

That has to be remembered: what works for one culture isn't necessarily going to work for another. Speaking to another culture means speaking with its language and customs.

Agreed, and it's a good point.

But is seems that some cultures are quite resistant to change, and if change is necessary, what is the path forward?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I totally agree which is why it sprung to mind so easily actually.

I remember those days with some fondness but it's hard for me to believe now how SERIOUSLY we all took it back then. Complete with cartoons being submitted to magazines with Mario ripping Sonics spine out via his head and such and the following threats of dire consequences. There would be appropriate ways to dress for each faction, jargon unique to each side, we had our own symbols etc.

The parallels to religious conflict are startling frankly. The difference was, we were expected to grow up and stop that rubbish. I'm still a fan of old Ninty to this day, but ones own maturity tends to allow one to see the ridiculousness in that kind of thing.

Whereas religion is treated so gravely and you even now have the Pope effectively making excuses for bad behaviour. Punching somebody for insulting your mother is not "normal". What world does this guy live in?

I really can't help but look at these situations and what are effectively members of Muhammad fandom acting out and then someone else's Dad saying you shouldn't have said Muhammad was a butthead if you didn't want to get hit. It's profoundly stupid.

I, personally, don't buy into the idea of "normal"; too many things in this world have basically convinced me that the concept itself is nothing but a social construct and incredibly detrimental to building an inclusive society.

That said, however, I am rather disappointingly surprised that the Pope, at the very least, was so careless with his words that even if he didn't mean them in these ways, they're getting interpreted that way. I still think he's a generally incredible person as far as Popes go, but that doesn't free him from criticism when he screws up, and this does count.

Agreed, and it's a good point.

But is seems that some cultures are quite resistant to change, and if change is necessary, what is the path forward?

Change is inevitable, no matter what course is taken, even if it's that of no-action. (It's already happening, in any case; once these fires die down, I think us and the Islamic world are likely to be culturally friends by this century's end.) However, it still behooves us to at least try to make that change as painless as possible for everyone involved. Question is, how do we do that without violating either of our rights in response to them violating ours?

Hm... looking to the past is generally a good way to at least get some inspiration. (We may not be directly involved with the solutions, but talking about it can provide me with material to use in stories; in any case, keeps the mind working.) When Rome sought to "civilize" the world around it, the least effective ones (at least as far as Germania goes) were those who tried military force. The most effective ones, from what I understand, were those who built Roman cities near, or past, the frontier. That way, the Tribes would see how much higher Roman standard of living was, and embrace it on their own.

Granted, I've long discarded the notion of vague, linear conceptions of cultural "progress" as a contemporary myth conceived to justify imperialism. (Though I do believe in specific instances of progress when a clearly defined goal is present, such as, oh, "be on friendlier terms, and more culturally compatible, with the Islamic world"; we did it with Japan and their culture is basically the perfect foil for ours). Rather, I think of things as cyclical. Currently, it's not that we were both in some "dark age" in the past and that we came out of it while they stayed behind; rather, the tables have flipped: we slowly recovered from a cultural apocalypse that came with the Western Roman Empire's fall, during which they were in a Golden Age much like we are in, now.
 

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
I, personally, don't buy into the idea of "normal"; too many things in this world have basically convinced me that the concept itself is nothing but a social construct and incredibly detrimental to building an inclusive society.

Of course but in this context it seems to imply he thinks it's expected and "okay".


That said, however, I am rather disappointingly surprised that the Pope, at the very least, was so careless with his words that even if he didn't mean them in these ways, they're getting interpreted that way. I still think he's a generally incredible person as far as Popes go, but that doesn't free him from criticism when he screws up, and this does count.

Hah! Some might see that as damning with faint praise.

I get the impression that he is perhaps more liberal than the church expected him to be and they are now flailing about desperately trying to keep him on his leash.

That said, this particular speech of his smacks of hedging against a time when there may be more high profile violence from Catholics or attempts to introduce or support blasphemy legislation in some countries so the church can then point to this and say that they told us so.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Of course but in this context it seems to imply he thinks it's expected and "okay".

Or... not:

Vatican: Pope's Charlie Hebdo comments do not justify attack - Yahoo News

Hah! Some might see that as damning with faint praise.

Well, some love to project unintended messages in statements in an attempt to discredit an argument, or make it look like the statements actually agree with what they're arguing against.

I get the impression that he is perhaps more liberal than the church expected him to be and they are now flailing about desperately trying to keep him on his leash.

That said, this particular speech of his smacks of hedging against a time when there may be more high profile violence from Catholics or attempts to introduce or support blasphemy legislation in some countries so the church can then point to this and say that they told us so.

Wouldn't know, myself. I don't know much about the Catholic Church's contemporary politics.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I know that other countries have other, more sinister "exceptions" to freedom of speech, and I definitely wouldn't agree with that one. My point was that even in the country that touts itself as the flagship of free speech in the world, there are exceptions.
... but not the specific exception that Francis is hinting at (i.e. anything that a religious person considers offensive, apparently).
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Dear ice,
The new pope is all about "hope and change". How did that work out with our muslim messiah Barry Soetoro?

I'm sorry, you're gonna have to connect a few dots here... from the pope to "birthers" ???
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
... but not the specific exception that Francis is hinting at (i.e. anything that a religious person considers offensive, apparently).

Which is dependent on him actually hinting at that specific exception, which I don't really just assume he's doing (though remember that could be my condition making it impossible to detect such a hint).
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If we have to have a pope, this guy seems to be a welcome change.

That said, he's wrong about the freedom of expression vs. "offending" people's faith:

After Paris attacks, Pope speaks out against insulting religions - Yahoo News
Religions are not living beings and historical characters are dead.
so anyone can express their view about them.

I 100 % disagree with this affirmation of the Pope's. Because I think that secularism and rationalism are much wider than the religions world, which inevitably leads to narrow-mindedness.

since he's a coherent man, he wouldn't like people to insult Jesus.
I am a coherent man and I do want people to be free to insult Jesus and the Christians.
 
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