Who designed the designer?

Mestemia said:

don't wretch your shoulder out of socket patting yourself on the back...

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A Spiritual Christian knows it is only in and through the grace/power of God that he or she can live God’s Commandments.

A Spiritual Christian knows it is God’s work in one who is living his Word, and he or she gives God all the glory for doing the work that allows one to enter into the kingdom of God.

Johnlove said:

No Paul did not get it wrong, but people’s understanding of what Paul wrote is wrong.

(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.”

Jesus told us what one has to do to enter the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

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And

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;"
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

What you're preaching is "works alone" which heretical. Salvation comes from faith and works. Not just works.

I consider myself a better Christian now as a non-Christian. The label "Christians" has the baggage of ancient and outdated fundamentalism and completely misses the point, in my opinion.

Ouroboros said:

And

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;"
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

What you're preaching is "works alone" which heretical. Salvation comes from faith and works. Not just works.

I consider myself a better Christian now as a non-Christian. The label "Christians" has the baggage of ancient and outdated fundamentalism and completely misses the point, in my opinion.

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I am not preaching anything. Just explaining how wrong people have taken Paul’s writings.

Paul was right it is not one’s work that allows one to enter the kingdom of God, but God’s work in and through those who live God’s Word.

You ignore what Jesus said, so you can keep on believing your false understanding of what Paul wrote.

Jesus told us only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of God. You see Jesus said do! Doing is work is it not?

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Mestemia said:

don't wretch your shoulder out of socket patting yourself on the back...

Click to expand...

A Spiritual Christian knows it is only in and through the grace/power of God that he or she can live God’s Commandments.

A Spiritual Christian knows it is God’s work in one who is living his Word, and he or she gives God all the glory for doing the work that allows one to enter into the kingdom of God.

I repeat : He was before me.

Gnostic Seeker said:

First cause arguments usually employ the premise that complex things like the universe need a designer and cannot simply just exist. Well then let us ask- would not the designer be much more complex, assuming one for the sake of debate? Who designed the designer? Did that designer also need a designer?

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For something to exist without nothing preceding it the thing that precedes it has to be non-contingent.
Hope does not need anything to proceed it in order for it to exist. So I guess my best answer is that it was the hope of love that created everything. The next problem is doesn't there have to be someone or thing to hope? The answer is hope just is or is non-contingent.

Gnostic Seeker said:

First cause arguments usually employ the premise that complex things like the universe need a designer and cannot simply just exist. Well then let us ask- would not the designer be much more complex, assuming one for the sake of debate? Who designed the designer? Did that designer also need a designer?

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The ultimate source does exist but it is unknowable for us because human beings and their minds are of too low a nature to comprehend. Because we live in three dimensional space we think in terms of before, now and after. These concepts work in our world but not in the higher realms. Our consciences are inadequate. The best we are capable of is to recognize our place in creation.

JamesYaqub said:

The ultimate source does exist but it is unknowable for us because human beings and their minds are of too low a nature to comprehend.

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That is the statement of the agnostic, addressed here in part from a larger writing :

Pope Pius X - Pascendi Dominici Gregis - On the Doctrine of the Modernists - 8 September 1907 :

Venerable Brethren, Health and the Apostolic Blessing:

"Let us turn for a moment, Venerable Brethren, to that most disastrous doctrine of agnosticism. By it every avenue to God on the side of the intellect is barred to man, while a better way is supposed to be opened from the side of a certain sense of the soul and action. But who does not see how mistaken is such a contention? For the sense of the soul is the response to the action of the thing which the intellect or the outward senses set before it. Take away the intelligence, and man, already inclined to follow the senses, becomes their slave."

JamesYaqub said:

Because we live in three dimensional space we think in terms of before, now and after.

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That is the sense part to back up the beheading so proposed in your first sentence. And there is fallacy in that. Time and space are separate entities no matter how many parallels we may or may not draw from their existences. I once read that these are the first two ideas that the child efforts to comprehend, that of time and space. And we are all God's children. Your thinking is primal based on the three dimensional universe. But the universe is also infinite as God is Infinite. As telescopes have improved, this has progressively become more apparent. Time is the same for Him, there is no limit. He has neither beginning nor end.

JamesYaqub said:

These concepts work in our world but not in the higher realms.

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But God sent His Only-Begotten Son into the world that the world may be saved through Him. Our world was created by the same Father Who sent Him, through the power of the Holy Spirit. These concepts actually work much better in the higher realms for Heaven is their source, which is Infinite with regard to time and space. The world was created for man, not man for the world. As miraculous as the making of man from the clay of the earth is, so also is the Redemption brought to us through Christ Jesus for Eternal Life.

JamesYaqub said:

Our consciences are inadequate.

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Knowledge is not to blame, else you couldn't have written what you did. God is also present in our consciences, the point of intellectual contact with our Creator.

JamesYaqub said:

The best we are capable of is to recognize our place in creation.

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"of which we are capable" I have come through three wombs as a single created soul, the soul being a vessel which Christ fills with Life. Once I was taken up to Heaven, once I was brought down to Hell, and again, I have been raised from the dead through Christ Jesus, Who rose again from the dead. The first death from which He rose was the very death He had imposed upon us, and this was done by coming into the world, the spiritual death. The second was when He arose from His tomb after His crucifixion, the physical death. God gave us His very Body and Blood to feed us, victims of both deaths.

Christ teaches that to know Him and Him Who sent Him is Eternal Life.

the_sign_of_TSOMIH said:

That is the statement of the agnostic, addressed here in part from a larger writing :

Pope Pius X - Pascendi Dominici Gregis - On the Doctrine of the Modernists - 8 September 1907 :

Venerable Brethren, Health and the Apostolic Blessing:

"Let us turn for a moment, Venerable Brethren, to that most disastrous doctrine of agnosticism. By it every avenue to God on the side of the intellect is barred to man, while a better way is supposed to be opened from the side of a certain sense of the soul and action. But who does not see how mistaken is such a contention? For the sense of the soul is the response to the action of the thing which the intellect or the outward senses set before it. Take away the intelligence, and man, already inclined to follow the senses, becomes their slave."



That is the sense part to back up the beheading so proposed in your first sentence. And there is fallacy in that. Time and space are separate entities no matter how many parallels we may or may not draw from their existences. I once read that these are the first two ideas that the child efforts to comprehend, that of time and space. And we are all God's children. Your thinking is primal based on the three dimensional universe. But the universe is also infinite as God is Infinite. As telescopes have improved, this has progressively become more apparent. Time is the same for Him, there is no limit. He has neither beginning nor end.

But God sent His Only-Begotten Son into the world that the world may be saved through Him. Our world was created by the same Father Who sent Him, through the power of the Holy Spirit. These concepts actually work much better in the higher realms for Heaven is their source, which is Infinite with regard to time and space. The world was created for man, not man for the world. As miraculous as the making of man from the clay of the earth is, so also is the Redemption brought to us through Christ Jesus for Eternal Life.

Knowledge is not to blame, else you couldn't have written what you did. God is also present in our consciences, the point of intellectual contact with our Creator.

"of which we are capable" I have come through three wombs as a single created soul, the soul being a vessel which Christ fills with Life. Once I was taken up to Heaven, once I was brought down to Hell, and again, I have been raised from the dead through Christ Jesus, Who rose again from the dead. The first death from which He rose was the very death He had imposed upon us, and this was done by coming into the world, the spiritual death. The second was when He arose from His tomb after His crucifixion, the physical death. God gave us His very Body and Blood to feed us, victims of both deaths.

Christ teaches that to know Him and Him Who sent Him is Eternal Life.

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I do not understand what you are saying. Try removing the poetry, religious opinion and quotes of other men so I can discover what YOU really want to say.

You're right about one thing. I do tend towards agnosticism. I am inclined to believe in God but care little for any religion. I study them but have no favorite. God has spoken to humanity to provide inspiration and direction in life but it is we who made religions out of those moments.

Gnostic Seeker said:

First cause arguments usually employ the premise that complex things like the universe need a designer and cannot simply just exist. Well then let us ask- would not the designer be much more complex, assuming one for the sake of debate? Who designed the designer? Did that designer also need a designer?

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No the designer would not need a designer. The natural element of Eternity has a self awareness. The Element of eternity requires a sustaining quality of self consideration. and that element of self consideration, loving all aspects of itself is capable of doing the designing of itself.

JosephThomas said:

No the designer would not need a designer. The natural element of Eternity has a self awareness. The Element of eternity requires a sustaining quality of self consideration. and that element of self consideration, loving all aspects of itself is capable of doing the designing of itself.

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So why would the universe need a designer? Why would nature need a designer? It must be redundant.

Bunyip said:

So why would the universe need a designer? Why would nature need a designer? It must be redundant.

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In order to come into existence, It must come into existence stable, comparable, logical, and with scientific law. Prior to coming into existence these traits were arranged and chosen from a varying quantity of options and plausible worlds of existence.

The universe has consideration for all it's qualities including grief and strife, and ecological balance. If we follow the word of God there would be no conflicts or issues. So the existence of the Word of God is a justifiable circumstance for God to not resolve our issues for us.

That said. Hopefully you understand. It is really very simple.

Perhaps there is another term for it I am unaware of, Do you know what Notion-ism is {as a religion}. You cannot research it. Using common sense can you determine what it is?

JosephThomas said:

In order to come into existence, It must come into existence stable, comparable, logical, and with scientific law. Prior to coming into existence these traits were arranged and chosen from a varying quantity of options and plausible worlds of existence.

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And in order for a Chooser to exist, the existence must be stable, logical, scientific, arranged, chosen from a set of option and plausible types of existence. The conundrum is when we say that existence can only exist if something exists before it, means that whatever existed before it can only exist if something else in turn existed before it. It's an infinite recursion of pre-existences. We can't with certainty say that there's some first existence that didn't need to exist to exist. If it exists, it is because existence is in itself necessary, and not a chooser making existence possible, since the chooser must exist first before he/she/it can choose.

Gnostic Seeker said:

Who designed the designer?

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You and me.

Ouroboros said:

And in order for a Chooser to exist, the existence must be stable, logical, scientific, arranged, chosen from a set of option and plausible types of existence. The conundrum is when we say that existence can only exist if something exists before it, means that whatever existed before it can only exist if something else in turn existed before it. It's an infinite recursion of pre-existences. We can't with certainty say that there's some first existence that didn't need to exist to exist. If it exists, it is because existence is in itself necessary, and not a chooser making existence possible, since the chooser must exist first before he/she/it can choose.

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FALSE


Notionism proves what you have determined to be false.

Notionism:
"Everything that can be fathomed exists as a notion . Infinite eternities with unprescribed boundaries exist as notions outside manifestation and no mind is required to think them. No world is require to manifest them .

Gods Glory is Manifested in the Realm of Notionism and is infinite in all it's capacities, and the Notion which unifies them in a considerate Conscious is Without dispute the Omnipotent for it's quality of self worth. Giving worth to all living portions residing therein; making God loving.

Notionism undoes all fallacy in the creation of God. Because these notions exists without of any or all criteria.

Infinite capacity. Infinite potential. Infinite Consideration for all things. Infinite in all manners. And accumulated under a wonderful, loving, Monotheist God, who is the accumulation and Knower of all this Notionverse."


Christianity rules as the supreme religion, as there is zero contradictions between it and Hinduism, is glorified by Islam, makes Mythology clear and understadnable, and is the Religion by which the entire Planet was unified.

JosephThomas said:

Notionism proves what you have determined to be false.

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Uh. Wha..??? Never heard of "notionism" before. Looking it up, I get things about an art style. Is this something you made up?

Notionism:
"Everything that can be fathomed exists as a notion . Infinite eternities with unprescribed boundaries exist as notions outside manifestation and no mind is required to think them. No world is require to manifest them .

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Well, you have to exist to exist. That's just not simple a notion.

Gods Glory is Manifested in the Realm of Notionism and is infinite in all it's capacities, and the Notion which unifies them in a considerate Conscious is Without dispute the Omnipotent for it's quality of self worth. Giving worth to all living portions residing therein; making God loving.

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So your proof from notionism is founded in the assumption of God's existence. That's begging the question. Why must God exist before you can argue your invented word "notionism"?

Notionism undoes all fallacy in the creation of God. Because these notions exists without of any or all criteria.

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Well... there you said it. "These notions exist without ..." Meaning, existence must be before you can have notions. The notion of existence is the first order of these notions. So you're arguing that notions of existence don't exist because the notion of existence exist? Can you explain this further?

Infinite capacity. Infinite potential. Infinite Consideration for all things. Infinite in all manners. And accumulated under a wonderful, loving, Monotheist God, who is the accumulation and Knower of all this Notionverse."

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Huh? Notionverse? Do you have any link or a book reference or something that explains this notionverse a bit more. Never heard of it before.

Christianity rules as the supreme religion, as there is zero contradictions between it and Hinduism, is glorified by Islam, makes Mythology clear and understadnable, and is the Religion by which the entire Planet was unified.

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...

And Pantheism draws it all together in one unity.

JosephThomas said:

In order to come into existence, It must come into existence stable, comparable, logical, and with scientific law.

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Let us start with this

Why?
Why "MUST" it come into existence stable, comparable, logical, and with scientific law?

Gnostic Seeker said:

First cause arguments usually employ the premise that complex things like the universe need a designer and cannot simply just exist. Well then let us ask- would not the designer be much more complex, assuming one for the sake of debate? Who designed the designer? Did that designer also need a designer?

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Only one who is outside of time and not subject to time (eternal and Spirit) can create time itself.

Unification said:

Only one who is outside of time and not subject to time (eternal and Spirit) can create time itself.

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How so? What makes you think that is true?

Notionism is a more practical look at Quantum Mechanics. 100% factual.