There is no such thing as a "Christian politics."

Pah · Apr 11, 2006

THERE is no such thing as a "Christian politics." If it is a politics, it cannot be Christian. Jesus told Pilate: "My reign is not of this present order. If my reign were of this present order, my supporters would have fought against my being turned over to the Jews. But my reign is not here" (John 18:36). Jesus brought no political message or program

Let Caesar have what belongs to him, and God have what belongs to him" (Matthew 22:21). He was the original proponent of a separation of church and state.

"When you pray, be not like the pretenders, who prefer to pray in the synagogues and in the public square, in the sight of others. In truth I tell you, that is all the profit they will have. But you, when you pray, go into your inner chamber and, locking the door, pray there in hiding to your Father, and your Father who sees you in hiding will reward you" (Matthew 6:5-6). He shocked people by his repeated violation of the external holiness code of his time, emphasizing that his religion was an internal matter of the heart.

[Jesus] declares that only one test will determine who will come into his reign: whether one has treated the poor, the hungry, the homeless and the imprisoned as one would Jesus himself. "Whenever you did these things to the lowliest of my brothers, you were doing it to me" (Matthew 25:40). No government can propose that as its program. Theocracy itself never went so far, nor could it.

To claim that the state's burden of justice, which falls short of the supreme test Jesus imposes, is actually what he wills that would be to substitute some lesser and false religion for what Jesus brought from the Father. Of course, Christians who do not meet the lower standard of state justice to the poor will, a fortiori, fail to pass the higher test.

From the OP-Ed pages of the New York Times, registration required or the complete article. It is well worth registering.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/opinion/09wills.html?ex=1144900800&en=29cfd3907279edaf&ei=5087

It would seem that dabbling in politics, supressing the "least" of men, bringing faith into the public arena are not biblically sound practises.

c0da · Apr 11, 2006

I suppose, but you could have 'bible based' politics in which your policies are constructed and put into effect based on what the bible says.

Jesus may well have seperated church and state, but there are still Christians who will go against what he said, claiming to be doing it in the name of him, a good example being homophobia amongst some Christians, even though Jesus said to love your fellow man.

Just because Jesus said politics and religion should be seperate, doesn't mean people will follow.

Pah · Apr 11, 2006

c0da2006 said:
I suppose, but you could have 'bible based' politics in which your policies are constructed and put into effect based on what the bible says.

Jesus may well have seperated church and state, but there are still Christians who will go against what he said, claiming to be doing it in the name of him, a good example being homophobia amongst some Christians, even though Jesus said to love your fellow man.

Just because Jesus said politics and religion should be seperate, doesn't mean people will follow.

The basic authority from Jesus is not present to put "bible based" politics into effect. He said that his kingdom (and that means the Christian arena) is not of this world.

I think the rest of your post is the point that was made.

lunamoth · Apr 11, 2006

Tolstoy would certainly agree with the thread title. I think he would have even gone further (did go further) and say that no government (much less politics) is compatible with Christianity because the authority of all earthly government, pretty much by definition, must be upheld by some degree of force.

2 c,
lunamoth

c0da · Apr 11, 2006

Fair enough matey

Not too much imput I can put into this post because my biblical knowledge isn't very good

So I'll love you and leave you!

Scuba Pete · Apr 11, 2006

Pah said:
It would seem that dabbling in politics, supressing the "least" of men, bringing faith into the public arena are not biblically sound practises.

Amen, brother Pah!

Too often, those who thirst for power use any and all means to exert that power. Unfortunately, the spiritual fall out is that MANY refuse to even consider Christianity because of the actions of these so called Christians. This is true for those who push ANY agenda that is not biblical (like anti-evolutionism).

Mister_T · Apr 11, 2006

Pah said:
From the OP-Ed pages of the New York Times, registration required or the complete article. It is well worth registering.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/opinion/09wills.html?ex=1144900800&en=29cfd3907279edaf&ei=5087%0A

It would seem that dabbling in politics, supressing the "least" of men, bringing faith into the public arena are not biblically sound practises.

Great thread topic Pah.

kevmicsmi · Apr 11, 2006

Let Caesar have what belongs to him, and God have what belongs to him" (Matthew 22:21). He was the original proponent of a separation of church and state.

Pah, if Im not mistaken, Jesus is responding to a question of whether the Jews should pay their taxes, he was not dealing with the spirituality of christians being involved in government.

kevmicsmi · Apr 11, 2006

Jesus brought no political message or program

I completely agree, Jesus was here as a spiritual savior, not as a military or political leader.

To claim that the state's burden of justice, which falls short of the supreme test Jesus imposes, is actually what he wills that would be to substitute some lesser and false religion for what Jesus brought from the Father. Of course, Christians who do not meet the lower standard of state justice to the poor will, a fortiori, fail to pass the higher test.

I as a christian want less in taxes and less social programs so people can give more to charities that use their money best and get more bang for the buck. The editorial is seeming to claim that people who want less government waste and less people dependent on GOVERNMENT are going against Jesus' teachings. This is patently false, and is the exact opposite of the conclusion above.

Pah · Apr 11, 2006

kevmicsmi said:
Pah, if Im not mistaken, Jesus is responding to a question of whether the Jews should pay their taxes, he was not dealing with the spirituality of christians being involved in government.

That definetly was the question in Matt 22:17. But the answer in Matt 22:21 can be taken much more broadly. That is the basis for a separation of church and state.

The Church, the kingdom of Christ, is clarified in speaking to Pilate and Jesus says it is not an earthly matter.

The two together show that while on earth the authority is Pilate (or the government). That is not to say that a private life or family life or life in a congregation is devoid of Christ. It does say that the commands of Jesus should be followed in those Church areas but may not be possible in the public area.

Pah · Apr 11, 2006

kevmicsm said:
....I as a christian want less in taxes and less social programs so people can give more to charities that use their money best and get more bang for the buck. The editorial is seeming to claim that people who want less government waste and less people dependent on GOVERNMENT are going against Jesus' teachings. This is patently false, and is the exact opposite of the conclusion above.

When you pay your taxes whatever they be and for whatever government purpose you are following the command of Jesus. Whatever is left, even to the coat on your back, is the charity standard that Jesus declares. There are too many negative references to the rich to think any other way.

Adstar · Apr 11, 2006

Christians should take no part in politics but they should seek to do there best to influence politics as an outside force. Becoming a politician is working for worldly kingdoms. We belong to Gods Kingdom.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Pah · Apr 11, 2006

Adstar said:
Christians should take no part in politics but they should seek to do there best to influence politics as an outside force. Becoming a politician is working for worldly kingdoms. We belong to Gods Kingdom.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Working "as an outside force" is what is being done now - politically. It is lobbying, getting a grass roots to vote, spreading mistruths and distortions, all in the name of Christ. It is a wordly kingdom in which they dabble and exactly what Jesus would not have you do.

kevmicsmi · Apr 11, 2006

Pah said:
When you pay your taxes whatever they be and for whatever government purpose you are following the command of Jesus. Whatever is left, even to the coat on your back, is the charity standard that Jesus declares. There are too many negative references to the rich to think any other way.

I agree, but this in no way discourages politicing for lower taxes, it only requires paying what is llawfully "ceasar's"

Adstar · Apr 12, 2006

Pah said:
Working "as an outside force" is what is being done now - politically. It is lobbying, getting a grass roots to vote, spreading mistruths and distortions, all in the name of Christ. It is a wordly kingdom in which they dabble and exactly what Jesus would not have you do.

That is not exactly what i was talking about. I was talking about "christians" putting themselves up as candidates for election. I am talking about taking a central role within the system not as a outside force trying to modify the system. In many countries now "christian"? parties are fielding candidates, Or otherwise "chrsitian"? organizations are forming formalised alliances with certain political parties. This is spiritual harlotry with the kingdoms of this world and should never be entered into by true Christians. It is wrong to attempt to have the laws of God enforced by the powers of the state. Because people will then follow the laws through fear of the state rather than agreement with God. The Word of God is for those who Love God not for those who hate God.

Revelation 22
11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Apr 12, 2006

Pah said:
Working "as an outside force" is what is being done now - politically. It is lobbying, getting a grass roots to vote, spreading mistruths and distortions, all in the name of Christ. It is a wordly kingdom in which they dabble and exactly what Jesus would not have you do.

No what is being done now is is not what i was refering to What is happening now is some "christian" ? organisations are taking a central role within the system not as a outside force trying to modify the system. In many countries now "christian"? parties are fielding candidates, Or otherwise "chrsitian"? organizations are forming formalised alliances with certain political parties. This is spiritual harlotry with the kingdoms of this world and should never be entered into by true Christians. It is wrong to attempt to have the laws of God enforced by the powers of the state. Because people will then follow the laws through fear of the state rather than agreement with God. The Word of God is for those who Love God not for those who hate God.

Revelation 22
11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Scuba Pete · Apr 12, 2006

Show me ONE religious extremist that brought about honor for God... just ONE. In their quest to shove their beliefs and morals down the throats of so many, they have DENIED Christ to innumerable people. It is incumbant on all Christians to be all things to all men (and women).

Does it mean that Christians have no right to a political opinion? Nope. However, unless God comes down and annoints a politician with the Fire of the Holy Spirit in front of us all, we need to NOT play the religion card.

The hypocrites stand on the street corners and tell everyone else how righteous they are and how unrighteous everyone else is. The humble man simply toils away, serving God by serving man.

Mister_T · Apr 13, 2006

NetDoc said:
Show me ONE religious extremist that brought about honor for God... just ONE. In their quest to shove their beliefs and morals down the throats of so many, they have DENIED Christ to innumerable people. It is incumbant on all Christians to be all things to all men (and women).
Does it mean that Christians have no right to a political opinion? Nope. However, unless God comes down and annoints a politician with the Fire of the Holy Spirit in front of us all, we need to NOT play the religion card.

The hypocrites stand on the street corners and tell everyone else how righteous they are and how unrighteous everyone else is. The humble man simply toils away, serving God by serving man.

THANK YOU! I could not have stated it better myself :clap

Mister_T · Apr 13, 2006

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to $userinfo[username] again.

Crap. I owe ya some frubals.

Maxist · Apr 13, 2006

But Luna, the force for the Christians is Hell. And of coarse there is the stiffled past of the Vatican. Who is to say what they still would and would not do?

There is no such thing as a "Christian politics."

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