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Jesus vs Paul (salvation doctrine)

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
There is no such thing in the Torah as the "ceremonial laws"…just the Torah. It is an all encompassing law structure which YHVH says is perfect.

You pretend to be a Jew but you are not.

You do not even know that there are CEREMONIAL LAWS.

Leviticus 4:12
that is, all the rest of the bull—he must take outside the camp to a place ceremonially clean, where the ashes are thrown, and burn it there in a wood fire on the ash heap.

Leviticus 5:2
“‘If anyone becomes aware that they are guilty—if they unwittingly touch anything ceremonially unclean (whether the carcass of an unclean animal, wild or domestic, or of any unclean creature that moves along the ground) and they are unaware that they have become unclean, but then they come to realize their guilt;

Leviticus 6:11
Then he is to take off these clothes and put on others, and carry the ashes outside the camp to a place that is ceremonially clean.

Leviticus 7:19
“‘Meat that touches anything ceremonially unclean must not be eaten; it must be burned up. As for other meat, anyone ceremonially clean may eat it.

Leviticus 10:14
But you and your sons and your daughters may eat the breast that was waved and the thigh that was presented. Eat them in a ceremonially clean place; they have been given to you and your children as your share of the Israelites’ fellowship offerings.

Leviticus 11:4
“‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.

Leviticus 12:2
“Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.

There are many more scriptures that I can post from the "Torah".

However, do to space I will only give more from the New Testament.


Mark 7:3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders.

John 2:6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

John 3:25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.

John 11:55 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, many went up from the country to Jerusalem for their ceremonial cleansing before the Passover.

John 18:28 [ Jesus Before Pilate ] Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.

Acts 24:18 I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Except Yeshua didn't say this at all.

Why use this name?


He would have never been called as such. He probably only knew "Isho" his possible real Aramaic name.


And second, we don't know what he said with any certainty. You keep making the mistake of quoting authors and claiming Jesus said these things.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
I have studied every word of Paul in detail. If you don't want to debate this then go somewhere else.
I have already debated with you. You are the one who does not debate what I said!
Go ahead, read what I said and reply.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
How could denying Paul be consider blasphemous? Is Paul God? Is he one of the twelve apostles even??
Paul spoke the words of God as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit.

You are sinning against God and you fail to recognize His Word in the things Paul and His other chosen apostles say.
One of David's wives could not bear children because she judged David, see 2 Samuel 6:20, and 2 Samuel 6:23.
In addition, see what happened to Moses sister Miriam when she judged Moses. God gave her leprosy. See Number 12:1-9, 15.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Those are not Pauls words.

Those are the words of an unknown author, the same one who wrote Luke, who looks to have never met or even knew Paul.
Prove it. You call the Bible a lie. Go away, what are you doing here?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
You pretend to be a Jew but you are not.

You do not even know that there are CEREMONIAL LAWS.

Leviticus 4:12
that is, all the rest of the bull—he must take outside the camp to a place ceremonially clean, where the ashes are thrown, and burn it there in a wood fire on the ash heap.

Leviticus 5:2
“‘If anyone becomes aware that they are guilty—if they unwittingly touch anything ceremonially unclean (whether the carcass of an unclean animal, wild or domestic, or of any unclean creature that moves along the ground) and they are unaware that they have become unclean, but then they come to realize their guilt;

Leviticus 6:11
Then he is to take off these clothes and put on others, and carry the ashes outside the camp to a place that is ceremonially clean.

Leviticus 7:19
“‘Meat that touches anything ceremonially unclean must not be eaten; it must be burned up. As for other meat, anyone ceremonially clean may eat it.

Leviticus 10:14
But you and your sons and your daughters may eat the breast that was waved and the thigh that was presented. Eat them in a ceremonially clean place; they have been given to you and your children as your share of the Israelites’ fellowship offerings.

Leviticus 11:4
“‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.

Leviticus 12:2
“Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.

There are many more scriptures that I can post from the "Torah".

However, do to space I will only give more from the New Testament.


Mark 7:3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders.

John 2:6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

John 3:25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.

John 11:55 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, many went up from the country to Jerusalem for their ceremonial cleansing before the Passover.

John 18:28 [ Jesus Before Pilate ] Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.

Acts 24:18 I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.

There is no distinction between what you are deeming "ceremonial" and the law itself. You are wrong again.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
We do not have to go to professors to know God's Truth.

Do you know why most people go to church to listen to someone with an education on these topics?


And if one does not listen to a professor, one does not know the real history involved in these cultures that gives more context and meaning to the text.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
There is no distinction between what you are deeming "ceremonial" and the law itself. You are wrong again.
I gave many scriptures showing you that there is a ceremonial law of works.

Please do not deny the truth.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do you know why most people go to church to listen to someone with an education on these topics?


And if one does not listen to a professor, one does not know the real history involved in these cultures that gives more context and meaning to the text.

We do not have to go to those who went to college to know God's Truth.

God reveals Himself to little children, and He hides Himself from the wise and learned.

Anytime you want scripture references, just ask.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member

The English word "grace" has some 14 different meanings, most of which are not the Greek word found here: kha'ris.

Perhaps clearing up what exactly kha'ris means will add clarity to Paul's lines of reasoning.

Kindness — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
/quote
Undeserved Kindness. The Greek word kha′ris occurs more than 150 times in the Greek Scriptures and is rendered in a variety of ways, depending on the context. In all instances the central idea of kha′ris is preserved—that which is agreeable (1Pe 2:19, 20) and winsome. (Lu 4:22) By extension, in some instances it refers to a kind gift (1Co 16:3; 2Co 8:19) or the kind manner of the giving. (2Co 8:4, 6) At other times it has reference to the credit, gratitude, or thankfulness that an especially kind act calls forth.—Lu 6:32-34; Ro 6:17; 1Co 10:30; 15:57; 2Co 2:14; 8:16; 9:15; 1Ti 1:12; 2Ti 1:3.

On the other hand, in the great majority of occurrences, kha′ris is rendered “grace” by most English Bible translators. The word “grace,” however, with some 14 different meanings does not convey to most readers the ideas contained in the Greek word. To illustrate: In John 1:14, where the King James Version says “the Word was made flesh . . . full of grace and truth,” what is meant? Does it mean “gracefulness,” or “favor,” or what?

Scholar R. C. Trench, in Synonyms of the New Testament, says kha′ris implies “a favour freely done, without claim or expectation of return—the word being thus predisposed to receive its new emphasis [as given it in the Christian writings] . . . , to set forth the entire and absolute freeness of the loving-kindness of God to men. Thus Aristotle, defining [kha′ris], lays the whole stress on this very point, that it is conferred freely, with no expectation of return, and finding its only motive in the bounty and free-heartedness of the giver.” (London, 1961, p. 158) Joseph H. Thayer in his lexicon says: “The word [kha′ris] contains the idea of kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved . . . the N. T. writers use [kha′ris] pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestows favors even upon the ill-deserving, and grants to sinners the pardon of their offences, and bids them accept of eternal salvation through Christ.” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 666) Kha′ris is closely related to another Greek word, kha′ri·sma, concerning which William Barclay’s New Testament Wordbook (1956, p. 29) says: “The whole basic idea of the word [kha′ri·sma] is that of a free and undeserved gift, of something given to a man unearned and unmerited.”—Compare 2Co 1:11, Int.

When kha′ris is used in the above sense, in reference to kindness bestowed on one who does not deserve it, as is true with the kindnesses extended by Jehovah, “undeserved kindness” is a very good English equivalent for the Greek expression.—Ac 15:40; 18:27; 1Pe 4:10; 5:10, 12.

A worker is entitled to what he has worked for, his pay; he expects his wages as a right, as a debt owed him, and payment of it is no gift or special undeserved kindness. (Ro 4:4) But for sinners condemned to death (and we are all born as such) to be released from that condemnation and to be declared righteous, this is indeed kindness that is totally undeserved. (Ro 3:23, 24; 5:17) If it is argued that those born under the Law covenant arrangement were under a greater condemnation to death, because such covenant showed them up as sinners, then it should be remembered that greater undeserved kindness was extended to the Jews in that salvation was first offered to them.—Ro 5:20, 21; 1:16.

This special manifestation of undeserved kindness on God’s part toward mankind in general was the release by ransom from condemnation through the blood of Jehovah’s beloved Son, Christ Jesus. (Eph 1:7; 2:4-7) By means of this undeserved kindness God brings salvation to all sorts of men (Tit 2:11), something that the prophets had spoken about. (1Pe 1:10) Paul’s reasoning and argument, therefore, is sound: “Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer due to works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness no longer proves to be undeserved kindness.”—Ro 11:6.

Paul, more than any other writer, mentioned God’s undeserved kindness—more than 90 times in his 14 letters. He mentions the undeserved kindness of God or of Jesus in the opening salutation of all his letters with the exception of Hebrews, and in the closing remarks of each letter, without exception, he again speaks of it. Other Bible writers make similar reference in the opening and closing of their writings.—1Pe 1:2; 2Pe 1:2; 3:18; 2Jo 3; Re 1:4; 22:21.

Paul had every reason for emphasizing Jehovah’s undeserved kindness, for he had formerly been “a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man.” “Nevertheless,” he explains, “I was shown mercy, because I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith. But the undeserved kindness of our Lord abounded exceedingly along with faith and love that is in connection with Christ Jesus.” (1Ti 1:13, 14; 1Co 15:10) Paul did not spurn such undeserved kindness, as some have foolishly done (Jude 4), but he gladly accepted it with thanksgiving and urged others also who accept it ‘not to miss its purpose.’—Ac 20:24; Ga 2:21; 2Co 6:1.
/endquote
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
You do not speak what God's Truth says.
Actually I do. YHVH has ordained His Torah. It is perfect and good and able to lead a man to righteousness. All Israelites are commanded to expose false teachers who claim that YHVH's law is not relevant. Deut 13

You will have to give an account one day for why you turned your ear from hearing your heavenly Fathers Law. You won't be able to use Paul as your excuse.

He who turns away his ear from listening to the law (lit Torah), Even his prayer is an abomination. Prov 28:9

YHVH's Torah is to be magnified over all the earth:

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Actually I do. YHVH has ordained His Torah. It is perfect and good and able to lead a man to righteousness. All Israelites are commanded to expose false teachers who claim that YHVH's law is not relevant. Deut 13

You will have to give an account one day for why you turned your ear from hearing your heavenly Fathers Law. You won't be able to use Paul as your excuse.

He who turns away his ear from listening to the law (lit Torah), Even his prayer is an abomination. Prov 28:9

YHVH's Torah is to be magnified over all the earth:

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
You reject God's Word.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I gave many scriptures showing you that there is a ceremonial law of works.

Please do not deny the truth.
I meant to say that there are no divisions in the Torah. You can't separate the ceremonial laws from the rest of the commands. BTW....dietary laws had nothing to do with any ceremony.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
I meant to say that there are no divisions in the Torah. You can't separate the ceremonial laws from the rest of the commands. BTW....dietary laws had nothing to do with any ceremony.
The dietary laws were ceremonial laws.
Just think about it...does it really matter what is in our heart by what we eat?!
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
The dietary laws were ceremonial laws.
Just thing about it...does it really matter what is in our heart by what we eat?!
To God it does:

2Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. 23And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. 24But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people. 25Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. 26And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Lev 20:2-26
 
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