Are we living in the "end times".(Christian)

Sonofason said:

Christians going to heaven as a result of a rapture is not the end of it all for believers. We're going to heaven for a celebration; perhaps you've heard of it; it's called the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. After this, we will be returning to the earth with Christ, where he will defeat His enemies, and set up His Kingdom here on this earth for a thousand years.

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This Rapture teaching, the best I understand it, is based off of 1 Thess 4:17 as it reads in some Bibles such as the Revised Standard. This understanding can't be correct. The idea that all good people will be removed from the planet before the earth is cleansed is the exact opposite of the last 2 verses of the second chapter of Proverbs.

Lyndon said:

As to Revelation, John was imprisoned on the small island of Patmos a place where very little edible food exists, modern researchers have found many hallucinogenic mushrooms growing wild on the island, and it is quite likely or even probable that John was forced to eat them so as not to starve, the whole book of Revelation seems full of hallucinations, people claim this is the end times prophesied at the END of the book of Revelation, but practically none of the many earlier prophecies in the earlier chapters of Revelation can be linked logically to previous world events. The only Prophet that consistently prophesied dating back to the times from when it was written to the present, actual world events and dynasty changes that actually occurred is Daniel, and in the second to last chapter a clear description of the persian Gulf conflict, after that he only says there will be a time of trouble such as there has not been seen on this earth before, and that is the final conflict, sounds like right now!! So honestly, I pray you skip trying to make sense of Revelation, and strive to interpret Daniel instead who is incidentally a prophet of God considered inspired by all three Abrahamic religion, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Revelation is only considered inspired by some Christians and no Muslims or Jews, something to think about......

He doesn't say the earth will be destroyed, he doesn't say all the wicked will be killed and thrown into a fiery lake, he DOESN'T say anyone will be lifted up to Heaven, he doesn't even refer to a Messiah coming back to earth, again something to think about.

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We shall see. It is all unfolding at this time.

I think its very important to not have any clear distinct beliefs about what we might "believe" is going to happen in the future, we are not prophets, and we cannot see what they see.Our belief about the future, honestly, might be flat out completely wrong, evil forces might convince millions of Christians to go up to heaven on spaceships, World wars could be created by leaders that decide one religion is true and all others are false. The only way to fully understand a prophecy is to read it after it has already happened, being predicted accurately by the prophet hundreds or thousands of years before it happened. On the other hand with a prophet I have trust in like Daniel its not bad to consider several options of what might happen in the future as predicted in the Scripture, but don't rule out surprises and be so set in your preconceived beliefs that you could be deceived by imposters. In the greater sense in doesn't matter if we live or die in this final conflict, what matters is we live the best life we can we sort of cover our bases, one way or the other.

Lyndon said:

In the greater sense in doesn't matter if we live or die in this final conflict, what matters is we live the best life we can we sort of cover our bases, one way or the other.

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So many people give 'salvation' as what comes first. Man's salvation is not the primary thing. It comes yes, but Jesus taught us to pray for God's reputation to be cleared first when he provided the model prayer in Mt 6:9.

Kolibri said:

So many people give 'salvation' as what comes first. Man's salvation is not the primary thing. It comes yes, but Jesus taught us to pray for God's reputation to be cleared first when he provided the model prayer in Mt 6:9.

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Your saved as soon as you accept jesus. No magic ceremonies required.
To the op, xians aren't supposed to try to figure out the end times timeline.

Kolibri said:

This Rapture teaching, the best I understand it, is based off of 1 Thess 4:17 as it reads in some Bibles such as the Revised Standard. This understanding can't be correct. The idea that all good people will be removed from the planet before the earth is cleansed is the exact opposite of the last 2 verses of the second chapter of Proverbs.

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Honestly, I can see it going either way. I know that many Christians are to be persecuted. Indeed many Christians are presently being persecuted and killed. In the days of the flood, there were 8 people saved. The rest of humanity was taken.

Notice what Jesus said about the flood, and his second coming. He says that those who did not enter the ark were taken. That is, they died. They were destroyed.
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
(Mathew 24:38-39)

Now consider what He said next:
"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
(Mathew 24:40-41)

What do we make of this? If two people are in the field, and one of them is taken, and the other is left behind, what should we make of what actually happened to these two hypothetical individuals. It seems we can draw two or even many completely different conclusions from that which Jesus said here. First we could perceive that the person that was taken was caught up to heaven in a rapture of sorts, and that the other person was left to endure the Great Tribulation to come. Or, it could be that the person taken was killed, or even simply died of natural causes as those who were taken by the flood were, and that the one left behind was saved from God's wrath, or perhaps just happened to remain alive for now because his time had not yet come to meet his maker. We actually can't draw any conclusions based on what Jesus said here in just these few verses.

If we continue, we might see things become more clear. Jesus said:
"Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mathew 24:46-51)
Which guy is Jesus referring to here that will be made master of His goods, the guy that was taken, or the one left behind. How can we know? I suppose a person could be taken to heaven in a rapture and be made ruler over all of the Masters goods. Or it could be that the guy taken was killed, and the other was left behind to be made ruler over all of the Masters goods. Again, from what was said, we can make no determination as to what is being said, as to which of the servants in the field is to be made ruler over his Masters goods.

We determine what is being said as a result of our own personal subjective understandings and opinions of what is going on, and we do it regardless of the actual truth and intentions of the person we're trying to understand.

I believe the point is, if we do not desire to be included among those servants who wind up weeping and gnashing their teeth, then we had better rather focus on being wise and faithful servants to God, and stop worrying so much about revealing and determining the means and methods and time frames that God might use in completing the fulfillment of His plan for our eternal destinies.

Sonofason said:

I believe the point is, if we do not desire to be included among those servants who wind up weeping and gnashing their teeth, then we had better rather focus on being wise and faithful servants to God, and stop worrying so much about revealing and determining the means and methods and time frames that God might use in completing the fulfillment of His plan for our eternal destinies.

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I like that.

I wonder at times if God exists in many dimensions and time has no meaning to Him?
Time is important to mankind since we are finite.
"In God's time" might well be many millenia.
I haven't a clue, perhaps can't comprehend such notions?

jeager106 said:

"In God's time" might well be many millenia.

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"For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past, Just as a watch during the night." - Psalm 90:4

"However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." - 2 Peter 3:8

At this rate and 80 year old man/woman is only 2 hours old - from God's perspective. It is no wonder we need to be reminded that "Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness." (2 Peter 3:9a) Or as Habakkuk 2:3 reads:

"For the vision is yet for its appointed time, And it is rushing toward its end, (or "fulfillment.") and it will not lie. Even if it should delay, (or "if it seems to delay.") keep in expectation of it! (or "wait eagerly for it!") For it will without fail come true. It will not be late!"

Depends on what you mean by end times...if you mean sometime in our lifetime the answer is NO! Im 99.9% sure of that. Im at least certain of that enough that if I had to make the right bet or lose my life, I'd say no without hesitation.

In 1991 a dream showed an angel gliding through the heavens was about to blow a trumpet. This was the fifth trumpet. It is the preparation for war. Saddam's Iraq invaded Kuwait within weeks.
The 6th trumpet releases the angels that bound the great river Euphrates, and this runs from Turkey through Syria and Iraq to the sea. They are released to kill a third of mankind, and another third by starvation and diseases. There is a spirit over all people that is bringing this dilemma. Rev 9:13
An army of 200 million is mentioned and recently on a news channel 0.38% of population is involved in the military and is approximately 45 million.
The whole event of destruction will happen in one hour. Russia say they see NATO as a threat and if they don't pull back there will be conflict. The USA has said that they are deploying their missile capability with a 1 hour response time to a target. This was on the news today.
A third of the sea life has been lost according to the UN a few years ago.
And wormwood the bitter herb is in Russian, Chernobyl,

It is very close to what is actually happening even though it was written long ago.

I hope you wake up from your terrible dream, put Revelation back on your shelf, and quit trying to give people nightmares, if your predictions are right, God's predictions are wrong,IMHO

Lyndon said:

I hope you wake up from your terrible dream, put Revelation back on your shelf, and quit trying to give people nightmares, if your predictions are right, God's predictions are wrong,IMHO

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I know what you saying, BUT

Kolibri: Thanks for the scriptures. It's as I thought, or perhaps as I read one
time long ago.
Our lifespan is so short that we can't fathom time in God's universe.

It will get easier as we live longer. The really hard concept is that Jehovah had no beginning. Looking back to no beginning truly is out of our experience to relate.

Lyndon said:

boring......

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Honestly, I could be missing something. However, I believe that if you don't want to be present in God's eternal kingdom, you won't be. God is loving and kind enough to give you exactly what you want - an existence without Him. That'd be alright, right?

Kolibri said:

It will get easier as we live longer. The really hard concept is that Jehovah had no beginning. Looking back to no beginning truly is out of our experience to relate.

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I agree. Time is a construct of creation. Before time, there was only God. Even the scientists have discovered that as they approach t=0 in creation (the Big Bang) time completely distorts. They can't even get to t=0. That's probably because with regard to existence, t cannot be zero, but is rather undefined. With a singularity, that is if a singularity is actually something that has existed, and we were to suppose that it was the only thing that existed, then there could be nothing to measure it by. A single infinitesimally small point which a singularity might occupy would have no second point for which to measure distance by, and so therefore it would take no time at all from getting from that one point to that same point. At t=0, there is no time, or at least it is unmeasurable by any known standard. If such an object could have existed its existence could only be said to be eternal. Out of this eternity, God spoke, and disrupted his eternal existence with time, and thankfully us.

The belief in End Times, and heavenly rewards, is IMO the biggest threat to peace on earth. People are willing the world to end! Seriously, you think god wants that? If you want a better world then make the world a better place. Praying that it will all just go away is irresponsible and hateful.

It is an arrogance shown repeatedly for thousands of years that people believe that they themselves will witness such an event. And always they're wrong.

Time. If we accept that time only exists alongside the existence of substance/mass, then it follows that
1 we can never detect anything before that point (detection requires the passage of time) and,
2 nothing (including god) existed before that point (as existence also requires the passage of time).

To believe god existed before the universe, requires that time already existed, and that god was subject to the passage of time.

Hufflechuff said:

Time. If we accept that time only exists alongside the existence of substance/mass, then it follows that
1 we can never detect anything before that point (detection requires the passage of time) and,
2 nothing (including god) existed before that point (as existence also requires the passage of time).

To believe god existed before the universe, requires that time already existed, and that god was subject to the passage of time.

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Likewise, to believe that a singularity existed before the universe, requires that time already existed, and that the singularity was subject to the passage of time.

If it is possible for a singularity to have existed, so too is it possible for God to have existed before the universe came into existence. If indeed a single infinitesimally small dimensionless point, such as a singularity, were to exist in space, and even if it was indeed the only point of substance in existence, it exists in time. There is no good reason to accept that time can only exists alongside the existence of substance and mass. If we could suppose hypothetically that the universe is a closed system, and if everything of substance from this closed system were to be removed from it, time would still pass in this closed system universe. While to an observer standing outside this closed system nothing would appear to be happening in this universe, time would still be marching on in this empty closed system.

Time does not require itself to be measured. The existence of time is not dependent on the existence of an observer. It is the measurement of time that requires the existence of an observer.

Einsteins theory of relativity is a bunch of meaningless malarkey.
Time on a spacecraft moving away from earth near the speed of light is no different than the time experienced to an observer on the earth. A second is a second no matter whether something exists or not.

There is no getting younger by traveling near the speed of light. And there's no going back in time.