Why do homosexuals and transgenders force religious people to accept them?

Shadow Wolf · Dec 24, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
If something is inherently broken no one is under any obligation treat it as legitimate much less celebrate it

You haven't demonstrated it's broken. However, your particular religious views, which has you viewing other groups as less than, broken, or inferior, is what is broken.

-Peacemaker- said:
hehehe...you should see me when I'm not talking about homosexuals...believe it or not I can be a real charmer

That doesn't seem like something a Christian should be flaunting. Rather, learning to love (as you acknowledge you have done with women) is something a Christian should strive for.

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

Shadow Wolf said:
learning to love (as you acknowledge you have done with women) is something a Christian should strive for.

Why are you guys simply accepting the claim that he can love women as equals, when he made it so very clear that bi women are nothing more than sex toys unworthy of even being consumed and discarded by his nobly superior self?

Do you really think that's not a much stronger showing of his attitudes toward women as a whole than "Oh, I can love women better now that I understand their existence might include a few activities that aren't meant to cater to my every whim?"

-Peacemaker- · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
Why are you guys simply accepting the claim that he can love women as equals, when he made it so very clear that bi women are nothing more than sex toys unworthy of even being consumed and discarded by his nobly superior self?

Do you really think that's not a much stronger showing of his attitudes toward women as a whole than "Oh, I can love women better now that I understand their existence might include a few activities that aren't meant to cater to my every whim?"

I said I had a fantasy about bi women, I also have them about straight women. That's where it ends. Chastity is how I love women including those who identify as bisexual. I'm not a slave to my fantasies. I choose not to defile them by sleeping with them. I would rather they preserve themselves for their future husbands. I've committed myself to treating women as sisters as opposed to lovers. And guess what? I've been pretty successful as it, I haven't slept with one women as a believer. So you see it's out of love that I don't indulge my fantasies not some misguided sense of self-righteousness

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
I said I had a fantasy about bi women, I also have them about straight women. That's where it ends. Chastity is how I love women including those who identify as bisexual. I'm not a slave to my fantasies. I choose not to defile them by sleeping with them. I would rather they preserve themselves for their future husbands. I've committed myself to treating women as sisters as opposed to lovers. And guess what? I've been pretty successful as it, I haven't slept with one women as a believer.

First off, that's hardly all you said, so don't try to backpedal now.

Secondly, if you think you have the power to 'defile' women, who ought to be preserving themselves for their future husbands, then you have a LONG way to go before you can claim to be egalitarian.

Our sexuality is precisely that: OURS. It does not exist for male consumption; it is not a finite resource; it is not the sum of our value. The sharing of it does not defile us, nor cheat our future husbands - should WE want them.

The gift of marriage is not a purchase.

Our bodies, our pleasure, our love, our lives are not commodities on the auction block.

Which is why I asked 2 women that I bloody well know to understand that every bit as well as I do why they were going so easy on someone who clearly doesn't begin to comprehend that.

-Peacemaker- · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
First off, that's hardly all you said, so don't try to backpedal now.

Secondly, if you think you have the power to 'defile' women, who ought to be preserving themselves for their future husbands, then you have a LONG way to go before you can claim to be egalitarian.
.

Only in your twisted imagination did I say more than that. I mentioned my fantasies and you developed a whole narrative based on that about how I despise bisexual women. As far as defiling goes I believe premarital sex defiles both parties. I also believe men should be preserving themselves for my future wives (if they indeed seek marriage) so you see my view treats men and women equally. I now believe married couples need to mutually submit to each other and that singles whether male or female should not defile themselves or their partner through sex. My position is indeed 100% egalitarian

MysticSang'ha · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
Why are you guys simply accepting the claim that he can love women as equals, when he made it so very clear that bi women are nothing more than sex toys unworthy of even being consumed and discarded by his nobly superior self?

Do you really think that's not a much stronger showing of his attitudes toward women as a whole than "Oh, I can love women better now that I understand their existence might include a few activities that aren't meant to cater to my every whim?"

Peacemaker and I had had dozens and dozens of conversations on the nature of marriage, and where I don't oppose power-distinct relationships so long as they are consensual. He argued in favor of female submission overall, and I argued against. So for me individually, going by our history in conversations on women in relationships, this is IMO a big step toward equality. I don't speak for anyone else, but I understand where you're coming from with the frustration. It's cool.

Now, the bi erasure is still super strong here, and I don't gloss over that. There's still a lot of work to do with the rampant monosexism all around.

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
Only in your twisted imagination did I say more than that.

I never understood why people think this sort of lie will fool anyone in a medium consisting purely of written record:

-Peacemaker- said:
The good news is that I'm not seriously trying to land me an authentic bisexual girlfriend. Sure there's something titillating about girl on girl action. I might even have fantasized about being sandwiched in between a couple of ladies but that's where those fantasies end. If a couple of bisexual women tried to pick me up I would tell them no

-Peacemaker- said:
Please, she couldn't handle me

So far, no worse than the standard issue fetishization, but for someone who encounters this far too often, a major red flag. Also, standard issue fetishization is quite dehumanizing enough, thank you.

Oh, but then comes the real stuff:

-Peacemaker- said:
Do you really think I'm interested in living out all my sexual fantasies no matter how perverse? Those are pagan ways, not Christian. Ultimately I've already lived out many of my sexual fantasies and found them pretty unsatisfying in the long run. I'm not deluded enough to think that chasing down my bisexual fantasies is going to be the thing that fills me with what I really need or want.

-Peacemaker- said:
In case you hadn't heard the Christian God has a pretty strict sexual ethic that he expects his followers to adhere to. He's a long way from being some hippy

-Peacemaker- said:
who knows, maybe we'll see each other in hell some day

-Peacemaker- said:
I think this is a female thing instead of a bisexual thing. Women are always getting in an uproar about being objectified. I really have no issue if some woman sees me as a sex object. In fact I find it rather flattering as I find something appealing about being the object of a woman's fantasies. Now I may not respect her but I'm still flattered non the less. I've even had women use for my looks. Guess how I felt the next morning? I was kind of proud

No respect for women who refuse to accept their place as agency free, repressed, sexual commodities. A woman with desires of her own, seeking fulfillment of her own, is unworthy of respect regardless of her orientation.

-Peacemaker- said:
what you consider relevant and what is actually relevant can be two very different things. Take your pursuit of being a "good person". One's status as a "good person" depends on a relevant definition of good and evil. If we've personally defined good and evil so that "good" consists of committing all the acts we want to commit no matter how depraved it really doesn't have any relevance at all besides soothing our own hardened conscience.

-Peacemaker- said:
I assume that's pretty easy to do when one defines right and wrong for themselves and/or chooses a god that affirms everything they already want to believe about ethics

-Peacemaker- said:
You think it takes effort to simply choose to believe all the actions you trust to make you whole and bring you fulfillment fall under the umbrella of "good"?

Can't even acknowledge the possibility that queers or sexually liberated straight women can be good people. Refusing the holy Christian model of sexual relationships, which is well known to be mere prostitution, means that we are vile, depraved creatures who can only pretend to the slightest attempt to be good people.

-Peacemaker- said:
You really think I actually want to know what in God's name you fantasize about? I'm not sure I could handle that information. I made a point that sexual fantasies/lustful thoughts by nature objectify the person being fantasized about. Everybody has them, even if they shouldn't. I pointed out through a rhetorical question that yours are no different. You'd rather spin that however to make it sound like I was searching titillating info about what's in that head of yours. And the fact that I'm celibate is relevant, you know why? Because it shows I'm not some sex addict and/or a slave to such desires. Yeah those fantasies pop up in my head from time to time but they usually leave just as fast. That's how I'm able to avoid acting on them

I mentioned my fantasies and you developed a whole narrative based on that about how I despise bisexual women.

Storm said:
You really have no idea how much you're revealing of yourself, do you?

I tried to warn you; you wanted to keep going. There's more, shall I keep going?

As far as defiling goes I believe premarital sex defiles both parties. I also believe men should be preserving themselves for my future wives (if they indeed seek marriage) so you see my view treats men and women equally. I now believe married couples need to mutually submit to each other and that singles whether male or female should not defile themselves or their partner through sex. My position is indeed 100% egalitarian

Well, I'll give you this much: sex with you would defile most anyone. That said, I have a higher standard for "egalitarian" than you do. Just as I do the concepts of morality, Christianity, repentance, friendship, truth.....

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

MysticSang'ha said:
Peacemaker and I had had dozens and dozens of conversations on the nature of marriage, and where I don't oppose power-distinct relationships so long as they are consensual. He argued in favor of female submission overall, and I argued against. So for me individually, going by our history in conversations on women in relationships, this is IMO a big step toward equality. I don't speak for anyone else, but I understand where you're coming from with the frustration. It's cool.

Now, the bi erasure is still super strong here, and I don't gloss over that. There's still a lot of work to do with the rampant monosexism all around.

I'm not even talking about bi erasure, but the misogyny underlying it. Admitting that maybe women aren't just servants may be a step in the right direction, but let's not pretend it's a big one.

MysticSang'ha · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
I'm not even talking about bi erasure, but the misogyny underlying it. Admitting that maybe women aren't just servants may be a step in the right direction, but let's not pretend it's a big one.

LOL gotcha.

-Peacemaker- · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
I never understood why people think this sort of lie will fool anyone in a medium consisting purely of written record:

So far, no worse than the standard issue fetishization, but for someone who encounters this far too often, a major red flag. Also, standard issue fetishization is quite dehumanizing enough, thank you.

Oh, but then comes the real stuff:

No respect for women who refuse to accept their place as agency free, repressed, sexual commodities. A woman with desires of her own, seeking fulfillment of her own, is unworthy of respect regardless of her orientation.

Can't even acknowledge the possibility that queers or sexually liberated straight women can be good people. Refusing the holy Christian model of sexual relationships, which is well known to be mere prostitution, means that we are vile, depraved creatures who can only pretend to the slightest attempt to be good people.

I tried to warn you; you wanted to keep going. There's more, shall I keep going?

Well, I'll give you this much: sex with you would defile most anyone. That said, I have a higher standard for "egalitarian" than you do. Just as I do the concepts of morality, Christianity, repentance, friendship, truth.....

Maybe I'm missing something but you've successfully demonstrated what I freely admitted: That I've fantasized about bisexuals. The woman I said I didn't respect was the one who views me as a sex object. I said I still found it flattering but I wouldn't respect her. Try some reading comprehension. As far as "sexual repression goes" we can probably make the assumption you consider that the model I practice "sexually represses" both guys and girls in that it requires abstinence until marriage. I'm consistent with respect to gender. I expect men and women to live up to the exact same standard with respect to sexuality, that is the very definition of egalitarian. I believe guys who sleep around are just as bad as the women that do it. If you're under the impression that I'm influenced by machismo you couldn't be more wrong. "Sex with me would defile most anyone" you probably should've left that out of your post, no need to go there. I certainly hope you're not on staff anymore

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
Maybe I'm missing something but you've successfully demonstrated

- that your claim that you said nothing else was a bold faced lie. Yes, I know.

Try some reading comprehension.

Try some self-reflection.

we can probably make the assumption

You really shouldn't, no. That never goes well for you or anyone else.

"Sex with me would defile most anyone" you probably should've left that out of your post, no need to go there.

You should have left out everything you've posted in thirteen pages. There was no need for you to spew any of that. Glass houses, dude.

Besides, it's your own assertion. You just don't like my reasons for saying that you're actually right for once.

-Peacemaker- · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
- that your claim that you said nothing else was a bold faced lie. Yes, I know.

.

Obviously a lot was said in this thread but about women I only shared some of my fantasies. You're the one who attempted to extrapolate from those fantasies how you assume I must treat women. You certainly assumed the worst about me by concluding that I'm consumed by such fantasies. People with the fantasies that I've had often don't view women in real life as anything more than objects. The secret for treating women as sisters is to resist the urge to have such fantasies. I acknowledge that they are bad and that making them a part of one's life inhibits one's ability to love the opposite sex properly. Believe it or not the battle to resist such fantasies has been won more than lost by me and it's evident by the way I'm able to love women with purity. How exactly do you think it's possible to stay celibate for as long as I have? You think one can think lustful thoughts all day and not act on them?

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
Obviously a lot was said in this thread but about women I only shared some of my fantasies. You're the one who attempted to extrapolate from those fantasies how you assume I must treat women. You certainly assumed the worst about me by concluding that I'm consumed by such fantasies. People with the fantasies that I've had often don't view women in real life as anything more than objects. The secret for treating women as sisters is to resist the urge to have such fantasies. I acknowledge that they are bad and that making them a part of one's life inhibits one's ability to love the opposite sex properly. Believe it or not the battle to resist such fantasies has been won more than lost by me and it's evident by the way I'm able to love women with purity. How exactly do you think it's possible to stay celibate for as long as I have? You think one can think lustful thoughts all day and not act on them?

Sure. What one can't do is erase the very clear picture all that venom painted.

And you damn sure can't put the shame of it on anyone but yourself, no matter how hard you try.

suncowiam · Dec 24, 2014

Responding to the OP subject.

This is kind of like asking the KKK for acceptance and understanding of all races. Best example I can this.

-Peacemaker- · Dec 24, 2014

Storm said:
Sure. What one can't do is erase the very clear picture all that venom painted.

And you damn sure can't put the shame of it on anyone but yourself, no matter how hard you try.

I could've been a little gentler when I spoke about certain people's character. I used what I believe to be the word of God to hurt people as opposed to heal them

Storm · Dec 24, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
I could've been a little gentler when I spoke about certain people's character. I used what I believe to be the word of God to hurt people as opposed to heal them

No, really?

And in the service of hatred and bigotry, defaming Christ's sweet name all the while. But you're plenty gentle when it comes to yourself, aren't you? Just look at that understatement. All that talk about how we just define good as whatever we wanted to do in the first place, just God forbid you ever look in the mirror.

Maybe you should find yourself a good Christian queer with a divine mandate to forgive next time. Pagan morality doesn't demand that we forgive those who try to tear us down just because they offer hollow tokens.

methylatedghosts · Dec 25, 2014

Wow! What a lot of posts. What a lot of words. Certain I've read them all, though I may have skimmed some. @-Peacemaker- I can't say I'm particularly heartened by any of your words concerning treating gay people as people. Considering other statements you've made, they ring hollow and empty. Though, who knows. Maybe with a little hard work and belief restructuring, you could even change for the better - that I do believe. Everyone can and does change, and you are not excluded there. I have faith in your ability to become a truly kind and loving person towards ALL of God's creation

@Storm, I'm amazed and impressed by your level of patience, though I see it is running low. I can see it's truly frustrating you, but you're doing an amazing job.
@MysticSang'ha, you seem to have this innate ability to turn everything - everything - into a positive. You have this knack of being able to look at people in just the right way to do so.

MysticSang'ha · Dec 26, 2014

-Peacemaker- said:
I could've been a little gentler when I spoke about certain people's character. I used what I believe to be the word of God to hurt people as opposed to heal them

Suggestion: Heal the pain from targeting, threats, torture, and oppression. Orientation and/or gender identity inherently are in no need for healing.

As a bisexual woman, my orientation and gender identity are as natural, beautiful, supercharged love-and-joy potential for happy unions as any cis-heterosexual man's or woman's.

I was forced to "accept" the Defense of Marriage Act in the mid '90s when I was deeply in love with a woman that I was ready and willing to spend the rest of my life with. Forcing me to accept this restriction put me into a spiral of depression and self-destructive behavior where I felt no hope for myself, and I ended the relationship that tore her apart as much as it tore me apart.

In spite of being a survivor of brutal sexual assault, I found myself in some of the darkest moments of my life from DOMA, at a time when I finally accepted my orientation within myself but came face to face with an oppressive culture that saw me as a second class citizen. It's one of the reasons I continue to this day unable to forgive Clinton and others of his ilk. I'll keep my dukes up to people who are unapologetic about targeting me. But I can't forgive people who act like an ally to our faces but will conveniently throw us under the bus the minute it's politically convenient. That destroys far more than a simple and direct assault.

If "forcing people to accept homosexuals and transgender people" means THIS kind of pain and suffering, I will understand the sentiment against it. But all I hear in this thread by folks who don't like queers is forcing people to accept us as human beings with the same dignity and respect as cisgender and heterosexual people, and THAT is something folks shouldn't have to do.

Bisexuals included, btw.

But c'mon, accepting us as human beings as dignified as straight people is not going to cause the kind of pain that I and others have endured. To this day, I still encounter conversations with people who assume they're not in polite company who suggest that they only want a few minutes with these ****ots and **kes to "set them straight", and that they'll be kind by NOT killing them.

And to this day, I STILL encounter online secret requests to be the hot bi woman for numerous hetero couples curiosities. How ridiculous that I'm still supposed to be invisible while being completely objectified...and consider now how easy it is for society to see somebody like me as easily and quickly disposable at that point?

Peacemaker, I'm not saying this to play the Oppression Olympics. I'm taking a stand for my humanity while pointing out the rhetoric and behavior that perpetuates the dehumanization of people like me. I share my story so that it can be known as another human's story facing societal marginalization. It's up to others to decide if they want to be on the side of further oppression and suffering or on the side of freedom and humanity.

Nietzsche · Dec 26, 2014

MysticSang'ha said:
Suggestion: Heal the pain from targeting, threats, torture, and oppression. Orientation and/or gender identity inherently are in no need for healing.

As a bisexual woman, my orientation and gender identity are as natural, beautiful, supercharged love-and-joy potential for happy unions as any cis-heterosexual man's or woman's.

I was forced to "accept" the Defense of Marriage Act in the mid '90s when I was deeply in love with a woman that I was ready and willing to spend the rest of my life with. Forcing me to accept this restriction put me into a spiral of depression and self-destructive behavior where I felt no hope for myself, and I ended the relationship that tore her apart as much as it tore me apart.

In spite of being a survivor of brutal sexual assault, I found myself in some of the darkest moments of my life from DOMA, at a time when I finally accepted my orientation within myself but came face to face with an oppressive culture that saw me as a second class citizen. It's one of the reasons I continue to this day unable to forgive Clinton and others of his ilk. I'll keep my dukes up to people who are unapologetic about targeting me. But I can't forgive people who act like an ally to our faces but will conveniently throw us under the bus the minute it's politically convenient. That destroys far more than a simple and direct assault.

If "forcing people to accept homosexuals and transgender people" means THIS kind of pain and suffering, I will understand the sentiment against it. But all I hear in this thread by folks who don't like queers is forcing people to accept us as human beings with the same dignity and respect as cisgender and heterosexual people, and THAT is something folks shouldn't have to do.

Bisexuals included, btw.

But c'mon, accepting us as human beings as dignified as straight people is not going to cause the kind of pain that I and others have endured. To this day, I still encounter conversations with people who assume they're not in polite company who suggest that they only want a few minutes with these ****ots and **kes to "set them straight", and that they'll be kind by NOT killing them.

And to this day, I STILL encounter online secret requests to be the hot bi woman for numerous hetero couples curiosities. How ridiculous that I'm still supposed to be invisible while being completely objectified...and consider now how easy it is for society to see somebody like me as easily and quickly disposable at that point?

Peacemaker, I'm not saying this to play the Oppression Olympics. I'm taking a stand for my humanity while pointing out the rhetoric and behavior that perpetuates the dehumanization of people like me. I share my story so that it can be known as another human's story facing societal marginalization. It's up to others to decide if they want to be on the side of further oppression and suffering or on the side of freedom and humanity.

But...but...the bronze-age Israelite text with the genocide and slavery and rape and other such eternal moral truths says it's bad!

Shadow Wolf · Dec 26, 2014

MysticSang'ha said:
But all I hear in this thread by folks who don't like queers is forcing people to accept us as human beings with the same dignity and respect as cisgender and heterosexual people, and THAT is something folks shouldn't have to do.

Too bad more people don't realize two things about this. One, it's very hypocritical to think you shouldn't have to accept someone as a human being entitled to a basic level of dignity while praying to Jesus, but also that, two, it creates an unhealthy atmospheres because there are those who believe they shouldn't have to accept GLTB people as humans. It isn't too hard to find a guy who does accept bi women and MtF transsexuals, but only as objects of his fantasies. Too bad there isn't some brain probe to stick on people's heads to find out why just exactly it is so hard for them to even just pretend to get along with homosexuals and transgenders.

Why do homosexuals and transgenders force religious people to accept them?

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