Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

Sha'irullah said:

That is what philosophy is for

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We could use you in arguments against Christian apologists, 'humanistic' xians etc.

This is a basic rule of thumb I go by. If you are reading a 'religious' text, ie theistic, and you are not getting or understanding the theistic part of that religion, it aint' for you. The problem with many xians imo is that they think, (with no help from scholastic encouragement), that xianity is a neato belief system if non-theistic. The problem is that, by arguments such as 'works over faith', they make themselves the laughing stock of the great eastern thinkers, who know the flaws in said xians arguments.

disciple said:

We could use you in arguments against Christian apologists, 'humanistic' xians etc.

Click to expand...

Tis amazing you post count is 10,000 precisely

Eliab ben Benjamin said:

Grin, My spiritual journey was somewhat extreme ...
an nDE (near Death Experience) after a Car accident (massive head trauma)
6 holes in dura, basal occlusion, frontal lobe penetrated by steering column
and right zygoma exploded out ... lost 40 % brain ... Pronounced Brain Dead
body kept alive for transplant donations ...

Anyhow, went up the tunnel to the afterlife, Gatekeeper helped with life review,
was surprised all up there looked no more than 30 ,,,

Getting sent back the irritant

Click to expand...

I look forward to hearing how this shaped your views on religion and G-d.

disciple said:

This is a basic rule of thumb I go by. If you are reading a 'religious' text, ie theistic, and you are not getting or understanding the theistic part of that religion, it aint' for you. The problem with many xians imo is that they think, (with no help from scholastic encouragement), that xianity is a neato belief system if non-theistic. The problem is that, by arguments such as 'works over faith', they make themselves the laughing stock of the great eastern thinkers, who know the flaws in said xians arguments.

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Why can't one be a Christian atheist or agnostic....discip ???

Eliab ben Benjamin said:

Lol ... and to me Naturalist means Nudist

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Hey, I grew up in the hippie 60's, so nudity is quite natural for me, although the screams can be annoying.

metis said:

Hey, I grew up in the hippie 60's, so nudity is quite natural for me, although the screams can be annoying.

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There must be something natural about being naked. I have it on good authority that when I was born - 67 years ago today - that I came out sans clothing.

RabbiO said:

There must be something natural about being naked. I have it on good authority that when I was born - 67 years ago today - that I came out sans clothing.

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Is that why right after you were born the doctor slapped your mother?

metis said:

Is that why right after you were born the doctor slapped your mother?

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And I thought I was bad....telling Rabbio he is too conservative...

Sha'irullah said:

Tis amazing you post count is 10,000 precisely

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You think discip can count up to 10,000 ??....

Sha'irullah said:

@Avi1001

How would you define a spiritual journey yet alone spiritualism?

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To me a spiritual journey is the quest to experience an utterly satisfying answer to the meaning of life - not an answer in words but an answer in experience.

Eliab ben Benjamin said:

Grin, My spiritual journey was somewhat extreme ...
an nDE (near Death Experience) after a Car accident (massive head trauma)
6 holes in dura, basal occlusion, frontal lobe penetrated by steering column
and right zygoma exploded out ... lost 40 % brain ... Pronounced Brain Dead
body kept alive for transplant donations ...

Anyhow, went up the tunnel to the afterlife, Gatekeeper helped with life review,
was surprised all up there looked no more than 30 ,,,

Getting sent back the irritant

Click to expand...

I've heard others but not all say the same thing - getting "sent back" to finish needed work.

Avi1001 said:

I look forward to hearing how this shaped your views on religion and G-d.

Click to expand...

I am as well.

metis said:

Hey, I grew up in the hippie 60's, so nudity is quite natural for me, although the screams can be annoying.

Click to expand...

Yes me too, my teen years were in the 60's, so all the hippie movement in the parks,
the protests etc.
Was quite amusing, I worked and attended University both full time, which i know sounds
impossible but was not as i was at the time an optical instrument tech. and folks had no concept of what time of the day or night their camera or microscope was repaired, so it was all worked in between lectures ...

Funny story: in the days of tie dyes and beads and flowers in the hair ....
I used to attend in my spare time a hippy Café called The Fat Landlady it was open 4pm till 4am and most attended in their tie dyes etc.
Whilst i always wore my Bespoke Tailored 3 Piece Suit ... white shirt and tie
so i was challenged by my friends there why i was the odd one out following societies
acceptable uniform idea and not like them with their freedom ..... I laughed out loud,
looking around at 100 or so people all in tie dyes and beads and flowers .... and asked
was it not i who was unique there ??? ....

Eliab ben Benjamin said:

Yes me too, my teen years were in the 60's, so all the hippie movement in the parks,
the protests etc.
Was quite amusing, I worked and attended University both full time, which i know sounds
impossible but was not as i was at the time an optical instrument tech. and folks had no concept of what time of the day or night their camera or microscope was repaired, so it was all worked in between lectures ...

Funny story: in the days of tie dyes and beads and flowers in the hair ....
I used to attend in my spare time a hippy Café called The Fat Landlady it was open 4pm till 4am and most attended in their tie dyes etc.
Whilst i always wore my Bespoke Tailored 3 Piece Suit ... white shirt and tie
so i was challenged by my friends there why i was the odd one out following societies
acceptable uniform idea and not like them with their freedom ..... I laughed out loud,
looking around at 100 or so people all in tie dyes and beads and flowers .... and asked
was it not i who was unique there ??? ....

Click to expand...

LOL. It was quite a decade.

I didn't dress the part, and I was too shy for "free love", but there's some aspects of that movement I admired and some that repulsed me.

Avi1001 said:

I look forward to hearing how this shaped your views on religion and G-d.

Click to expand...

Gosh, i have to think somewhat hard to try and perceive or measure any difference in my views on religion and or Hashem .....
Who was the entity i call the Gatekeeper and describe in detail as looking 30, tall, outpouring of love and welcome and guided me through the life review .... before having me meet my long departed Grandfather.

1: i think i anticipated Judgement by an old man in long grey beard ...... it was nothing like that!
2: i expected to be severely chastised for the one stolen chocolate bar at age 14 ... i carried the burden
of it all my life until that event at age 35 ...
(school friends demanded i do that shoplifting as part of belonging to the group, so i did, but unable to
bear the guilt i returned it to the shop some days later and paid for it, i never was able to consume it)

3: the life review, was astounding, i relived most of my life, every unkind or hurtful word i had spoken
was reviewed as well as experiencing the hurt it caused to the other ... these were counted, and as i became overwhelmed with the guilt the Gatekeeper directed me to the balance, helping an old lady with her shopping bags, a smile and cheery hello, or the lives saved both as a Surf Lifesaver, and voluntary ambulance officer ... i was almost embarrassed when the Carol singing choir i formed
was counted as a good thing ... ( i joined with my Xian friends (Manchester UK) in carol singing, going door to door singing and hands out for pennies, to be disappointed to over and over be told no they have already been... So i arranged for all the kids from the local schools to join together as one choir,
and we collected on behalf of Dr Bernardo Homes collection tins and all .... we did very well, parents made period costumes, and streets full of people opened their doors as we arrived and started singing, and besides the donations in the tins, we had people tell us we were good children as they put
shillings in our hands for being so charitable .... ) gigglez

4: Sent back with a Task to perform !! boy was i miffed, finally arrived home in that place of peace and love, and sent back with unknown task, no clue cards or instructions of what or how to perform the task ..... grrrrrrr

So did any of my concepts of religion or our Creator change ... i am not sure they did, perhaps they matured somewhat to include others i may have considered wrong .... and mellowed somewhat from
sharp separation of good and evil ... many paths and many houses, and sometimes we stumble
as the pebbles in our path become rocks ...

So what did i do upon my return, beside the occasional cross word to my father in heaven ....
chapter II ... a little later, i need my morning coffee

Shalom .. Eliab

Avi1001 said:

Why can't one be a Christian atheist or agnostic....discip ???

Click to expand...

I cannot speak for disciple, but I think that it is next to impossible to be an atheist or agnostic and a Christian. Even the most liberal Christians fidget when confronted with "non-theistic" Christianity. The problem is pretty simple: Christianity is very creedal. If you hold certain beliefs, you are deemed a Christian; as you move away from those beliefs, you venture into heresy and then apostasy. Can that change? I don't know, but I do know that most Christians would reject the beliefs of someone describing themselves as a Christian agnostic or Christian atheist.

As a practical matter, plenty of atheists and agnostics are cultural Christians (per Pew, plenty of non-Christians, including Jews and Muslims, celebrate Christmas, for example). Quite a bit of Europe is post-Christian but still celebrates Christian holidays. And so on. But the major Christian denominations are not receptive to this secularizing trend and have resisted its incorporation into religious life.

Eliab ben Benjamin said:

...

3:... Gatekeeper directed me to the balance, helping an old lady with her shopping bags, a smile and cheery hello...

4: Sent back with a Task to perform !! boy was i miffed, finally arrived home in that place of peace and love, and sent back with unknown task, no clue cards or instructions of what or how to perform the task ..... grrrrrrr

So did any of my concepts of religion or our Creator change ... i am not sure they did, perhaps they matured somewhat to include others i may have considered wrong .... and mellowed somewhat from
sharp separation of good and evil ... many paths and many houses, and sometimes we stumble
as the pebbles in our path become rocks ...

So what did i do upon my return, beside the occasional cross word to my father in heaven ....
chapter II ... a little later, i need my morning coffee

Shalom .. Eliab

Click to expand...

I was very much struck by your comments about how such apparently small things as helping someone with a minor task and even smiling cheerfully at someone counts for quite a bit in the "greater scheme of things".

And I also noted your comment about how often "pebbles...(can) become rocks".

I'm looking forward to chapter II.

Chapter II ... this probably took place in hospital whilst still in Coma ..

I found myself apparently trapped down a dark well, I was aware of friends and family
visiting and became irritated as they talked to me like i was a small child, i could hear but not see or feel touch .. my mind wanted to yell "get me out of here" ..
i remember i woke a few times as a nurse approached with Pain meds or so called sleep
meds to keep me in coma ... which i refused, no idea why really (perhaps i made a better recovery from TBI than most, as i did not accept the keep asleep meds )

After my parents had refused allowing me to be used for transplants and the machines were turned off, (3 Days after accident) ... i awoke on a cold trolley whilst being taken
to ward 13 (the morgue) I apparently sat up and frightened the nurse by stating a clear
"don't give me any more drugs" ... i was of course returned to the ICU ...
10 days later i awoke, this time with a bathroom urgency in the middle of the night,
i removed the breathing tube, pulled the electrodes off my chest found myself connected to a wheeled stand by tubes in my arm, so with the assistance of this
pole found my way to a bathroom, not that i used it, as i had kicked a plastic bag along the corridor to get there ... Sadly there i discovered mirrors and staring back at me from
them a monster ... right eye located in a gauze pocket taped below my destroyed eye
socket, hole in the forehead oozing grey matter and blood... i was shocked and frozen
in place .... then the duty nurse arrived, full of as much alarm as the life support machines i had disconnected .....

I was awake 3 days .... before lapsing into a second Coma, this time from meningococcal meningitis this lasted 12 days and contained no awareness,
for me like i slept and woke the next day ( i presume i caught this because the
so called Professor of Neurosurgery had already deemed me only useful for
transplants and had done nothing to close wounds or repair the 6 holes in the Dura )

These were repaired a further 24 days later as i somehow persisted in both life
and conversation .... lol i almost said intelligence but with the long recovery i discovered
some gaps in that ... .

Looking back i am surprised now that i was discharged from hospital in my own care.
I went back and tried to work in my own repair business, failed somewhat as 20 minutes of work required 2 hours sleep ..
the Diplopia was a confusion each time i went out on the street i was convinced the town was having a Twins convention ... and seemed to always collide with the real
parking meter !! yes it is funny now, not at the time perhaps ...

Shopping for food became a problem, the confusion of choice and price made what little
mind i had left retreat ... i would be found sometimes hours later by the supermarket
manager vacantly staring at the shelf .... for me i had retreated into a zombie state of
nothing, a blank dark place of neither thought or activity ... i eventually signed myself into
a psychiatric clinic .... from whence my mother found and rescued me and took me home to NZ ... where she cared for me ..... i ran away a month later after discovering mother would not allow me any care for myself..... bought my own house in a town 200 km away ... And struggled to recover brain function ... had a friend living with me who
helped when i got completely lost and asked .. otherwise he allowed i could learn, fail
and try again ....
2.5 years a Zombie from time to time, until i purchased a computer and did educational
programs/games for teens to try recover function, i carried a palm plot for reminders of each and every activity and bill payment, altering it to require receipt number before considering it paid, this was better than the refrigerator white board as i considered it done when ticked, awful let down to to tick off "put the rubbish out" start of task and discover it not done later as i tried to add more .....

During the first year of my Injury i Founded the Head Injury Society of my Town
and some years Later a national organisation, from my perspective neither Parents
or the medical establishment had any clue how to rehabilitate an adult suddenly as
socially inept as a 5 year old ...

Using the computer i got back sufficient mental ability to function once again,
by the 4th year i was attending a so called rehabilitation program at the local hospital ..
making bath-boards etc ... and i discovered they had computers they did not use
supposedly for stock and to design rehab programs on, I restored their database and spreadsheets, and to help with the staff lack of use, wrote them a card file instruction
for each task ... they loved that they could now use the system ...

a Short time later someone seeing my technical background asked if i could go help
the Anaesthetic service Technician ... who was overwhelmed with too much work,
so i did, shocked the heck out of him stripping down and replacing all the diaphragms
on an Oxygen regulator the first day ... shrug to me it was basic, just a gas pressure regulator, simple logical machine ...
So i regained full time employment within the next year ... (for the first 6 month, i needed more rest) ...

Of Course then came more study, Medical Gasses, Computer Electronics, Biomedical
Engineering, Certificate in Plant Maintenance, Master of Electrical Engineering .. etc.
In Spare time , i ran the local Head Injury support group, Founded a National organisation so Govt. would talk to us ... and perhaps bullied or persuaded the Govt.
to pass a Disability Act ... provide rehabilitation, Pass a Cycle (Bicycle) Helmet Law,
and eventually a Human Rights act of their own ...

In the Hospital i was promoted to Respiratory Tech. in ICU and eventually Biomed Engineer in NICU ... where over the next 20 years i invented or improved Better life Support Machines, even had an American Ventilator company adopt my changes
to their Infant Ventilator .... perhaps 7 inventions or adaptations in all and then the
Billi Bed which i sold to a Swiss Co, as the hospital considered my inventions theirs!

Now Retired ....
did i do my Task ?? .... well hope helping mankind best way i could was a yes ...
oh and disability, yes i am officially disabled, still have anosmia, diplopia and disturbed balance ... but my advice to all newly disabled people ... after a period of rest, recovery
and feeling despondent, it is time get up off your backside and gather what resources
or functions you have left and use those to overcome the losses ....


how this shaped My views on religion and G-d. ....
affirmed for me G-d gave us this gift to overcome all adversity ..
perhaps we should avail ourselves of the ability, the path may be long hard and rocky
and at time seem impossible ... nothing is impossible with the help of our creator
by our shoulder ... it is however our work to do, not requiring divine intervention only
His support ....

religion, many of them, far to much dogma that seems to support the structure or oversight of the belief ... to make the holders or Priests more enriched than the community it claims to protect .... I think Richard Bach said it best in one of his books
when a holy man in a cave told him some truths and was told not to write it else it would
be distorted as a religion, as the keepers of the word were inclined to do to assure their
own stature ....

So Religions ... all with much right (the lessons) all with much wrong, the temples
or Priest structure ...
as for myself i stay with my own .. I am a Hebrew of the tribe of Benyamin the laws
Hashem gave to Moshe for us seem sufficient for a productive life doing no harm.

Sin, requiring a blood sacrifice, nah, i don't get it...i cannot see it in the mirror of my life.
Bhagavad Gita ..... Interesting ... not my culture ...

And no i am disinclined to pass any judgement on what others believe ... not my
place or duty.

Shalom 'v Chased ...
Peace and Loving-kindness

Eliab ...

I like you, Eli...you are like an OJ brother to me....you are invited to visit with us at "Avi's", anytime you please...!!!

Eliab ben Benjamin said:

Chapter II ... this probably took place in hospital whilst still in Coma ..

I found myself apparently trapped down a dark well, I was aware of friends and family
visiting and became irritated as they talked to me like i was a small child, i could hear but not see or feel touch .. my mind wanted to yell "get me out of here" ..
i remember i woke a few times as a nurse approached with Pain meds or so called sleep
meds to keep me in coma ... which i refused, no idea why really (perhaps i made a better recovery from TBI than most, as i did not accept the keep asleep meds )

After my parents had refused allowing me to be used for transplants and the machines were turned off, (3 Days after accident) ... i awoke on a cold trolley whilst being taken
to ward 13 (the morgue) I apparently sat up and frightened the nurse by stating a clear
"don't give me any more drugs" ... i was of course returned to the ICU ...
10 days later i awoke, this time with a bathroom urgency in the middle of the night,
i removed the breathing tube, pulled the electrodes off my chest found myself connected to a wheeled stand by tubes in my arm, so with the assistance of this
pole found my way to a bathroom, not that i used it, as i had kicked a plastic bag along the corridor to get there ... Sadly there i discovered mirrors and staring back at me from
them a monster ... right eye located in a gauze pocket taped below my destroyed eye
socket, hole in the forehead oozing grey matter and blood... i was shocked and frozen
in place .... then the duty nurse arrived, full of as much alarm as the life support machines i had disconnected .....

I was awake 3 days .... before lapsing into a second Coma, this time from meningococcal meningitis this lasted 12 days and contained no awareness,
for me like i slept and woke the next day ( i presume i caught this because the
so called Professor of Neurosurgery had already deemed me only useful for
transplants and had done nothing to close wounds or repair the 6 holes in the Dura )

These were repaired a further 24 days later as i somehow persisted in both life
and conversation .... lol i almost said intelligence but with the long recovery i discovered
some gaps in that ... .

Looking back i am surprised now that i was discharged from hospital in my own care.
I went back and tried to work in my own repair business, failed somewhat as 20 minutes of work required 2 hours sleep ..
the Diplopia was a confusion each time i went out on the street i was convinced the town was having a Twins convention ... and seemed to always collide with the real
parking meter !! yes it is funny now, not at the time perhaps ...

Shopping for food became a problem, the confusion of choice and price made what little
mind i had left retreat ... i would be found sometimes hours later by the supermarket
manager vacantly staring at the shelf .... for me i had retreated into a zombie state of
nothing, a blank dark place of neither thought or activity ... i eventually signed myself into
a psychiatric clinic .... from whence my mother found and rescued me and took me home to NZ ... where she cared for me ..... i ran away a month later after discovering mother would not allow me any care for myself..... bought my own house in a town 200 km away ... And struggled to recover brain function ... had a friend living with me who
helped when i got completely lost and asked .. otherwise he allowed i could learn, fail
and try again ....
2.5 years a Zombie from time to time, until i purchased a computer and did educational
programs/games for teens to try recover function, i carried a palm plot for reminders of each and every activity and bill payment, altering it to require receipt number before considering it paid, this was better than the refrigerator white board as i considered it done when ticked, awful let down to to tick off "put the rubbish out" start of task and discover it not done later as i tried to add more .....

During the first year of my Injury i Founded the Head Injury Society of my Town
and some years Later a national organisation, from my perspective neither Parents
or the medical establishment had any clue how to rehabilitate an adult suddenly as
socially inept as a 5 year old ...

Using the computer i got back sufficient mental ability to function once again,
by the 4th year i was attending a so called rehabilitation program at the local hospital ..
making bath-boards etc ... and i discovered they had computers they did not use
supposedly for stock and to design rehab programs on, I restored their database and spreadsheets, and to help with the staff lack of use, wrote them a card file instruction
for each task ... they loved that they could now use the system ...

a Short time later someone seeing my technical background asked if i could go help
the Anaesthetic service Technician ... who was overwhelmed with too much work,
so i did, shocked the heck out of him stripping down and replacing all the diaphragms
on an Oxygen regulator the first day ... shrug to me it was basic, just a gas pressure regulator, simple logical machine ...
So i regained full time employment within the next year ... (for the first 6 month, i needed more rest) ...

Of Course then came more study, Medical Gasses, Computer Electronics, Biomedical
Engineering, Certificate in Plant Maintenance, Master of Electrical Engineering .. etc.
In Spare time , i ran the local Head Injury support group, Founded a National organisation so Govt. would talk to us ... and perhaps bullied or persuaded the Govt.
to pass a Disability Act ... provide rehabilitation, Pass a Cycle (Bicycle) Helmet Law,
and eventually a Human Rights act of their own ...

In the Hospital i was promoted to Respiratory Tech. in ICU and eventually Biomed Engineer in NICU ... where over the next 20 years i invented or improved Better life Support Machines, even had an American Ventilator company adopt my changes
to their Infant Ventilator .... perhaps 7 inventions or adaptations in all and then the
Billi Bed which i sold to a Swiss Co, as the hospital considered my inventions theirs!

Now Retired ....
did i do my Task ?? .... well hope helping mankind best way i could was a yes ...
oh and disability, yes i am officially disabled, still have anosmia, diplopia and disturbed balance ... but my advice to all newly disabled people ... after a period of rest, recovery
and feeling despondent, it is time get up off your backside and gather what resources
or functions you have left and use those to overcome the losses ....


how this shaped My views on religion and G-d. ....
affirmed for me G-d gave us this gift to overcome all adversity ..
perhaps we should avail ourselves of the ability, the path may be long hard and rocky
and at time seem impossible ... nothing is impossible with the help of our creator
by our shoulder ... it is however our work to do, not requiring divine intervention only
His support ....

religion, many of them, far to much dogma that seems to support the structure or oversight of the belief ... to make the holders or Priests more enriched than the community it claims to protect .... I think Richard Bach said it best in one of his books
when a holy man in a cave told him some truths and was told not to write it else it would
be distorted as a religion, as the keepers of the word were inclined to do to assure their
own stature ....

So Religions ... all with much right (the lessons) all with much wrong, the temples
or Priest structure ...
as for myself i stay with my own .. I am a Hebrew of the tribe of Benyamin the laws
Hashem gave to Moshe for us seem sufficient for a productive life doing no harm.

Sin, requiring a blood sacrifice, nah, i don't get it...i cannot see it in the mirror of my life.
Bhagavad Gita ..... Interesting ... not my culture ...

And no i am disinclined to pass any judgement on what others believe ... not my
place or duty.

Shalom 'v Chased ...
Peace and Loving-kindness

Eliab ...

Click to expand...

Hi Avi..glad i caught up with you here. Briefly met you in chat but didn't have time to respond..so 'hi', lol.
Does your thread here have any particular topic?