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The God of the Old Testament has never existed and is not the NT God

julio.2

Member
As a very modern and open-minded Catholic I want to discuss this topic.
I think that it is sick to think that a vengeful, blood-thirsty and cruel God has ever existed, and that he's the God of the New Testament. I deeply think that any Christian who dares think that our God is able to kill someone (through floods, earthquakes, whatever) doesn't deserve to remain Christian and should become an Atheist.
I deeply think that Genesis, Exodus and some other books like Joshua are just as legendary as the Iliad and the Odyssey. In other word it is twisted and irrational to think that the tale of Creation, of the flood are real.

Besides...are we really sure that the authors of Genesis and Exodus were normal people?
In the original Hebrew text God is translated from words which have nothing to do with Θεος, the Greek word for God.
- Elohim (a plural form????? but God is One , not some people)
- Yahveh (is Yahveh God? Please-....it could also be a human being, a tyrant or a landlord)

so...in other words. It is also possible that the Genesis doesn't talk about God. But about blood-thirsty conquerors named Elohim, and about a clumsy governor called Yahveh. All human beings.

God is Love . He is Wisdom, Glory, . He is Logos.
*
There has only ever been but one true God. Old Testament and New Testament, both are the same God. The Creator of mankind, Creator of the Garden. The God of his Servants Noah, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus and countless others he Created to do his Will. Surely as he can Save a life, he can also Take a life.
*
Genesis 6:7
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
*
To describe God as Love, Wisdom, Glory and Logos falls so very short and gives such a great God so little credit.
*
Wisdom is knowledge of the Lord thy God. On the day of your visitation you will be ashamed, confounded as you plead for Mercy. And who will you be pleading for Mercy from but the One and Only God. The One that brought down Pharaoh to an end, killing his Army and the first borne. He that confirmeth the word of his Servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers. I do agree that the both the Old and New Testaments were written by men for men. God warns us of False Prophets and to test them. God is a God of Righteousness and if God spoke to a Prophet then what the Prophet said for God will come true. God spoke to Isaiah more than any so called Prophet, Isaiah quotes God and some Isaiah's prophesies have come true and some are to be fulfilled, I pray in my life time. His sanctuary has been polluted, most all chase after a false god, praying to a god that isn't a god at all, that has no power to save anything let alone a soul.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
*
There has only ever been but one true God. Old Testament and New Testament, both are the same God. The Creator of mankind, Creator of the Garden. The God of his Servants Noah, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus and countless others he Created to do his Will. Surely as he can Save a life, he can also Take a life.
*
Genesis 6:7
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
*
To describe God as Love, Wisdom, Glory and Logos falls so very short and gives such a great God so little credit.
*
Wisdom is knowledge of the Lord thy God. On the day of your visitation you will be ashamed, confounded as you plead for Mercy. And who will you be pleading for Mercy from but the One and Only God. The One that brought down Pharaoh to an end, killing his Army and the first borne. He that confirmeth the word of his Servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers. I do agree that the both the Old and New Testaments were written by men for men. God warns us of False Prophets and to test them. God is a God of Righteousness and if God spoke to a Prophet then what the Prophet said for God will come true. God spoke to Isaiah more than any so called Prophet, Isaiah quotes God and some Isaiah's prophesies have come true and some are to be fulfilled, I pray in my life time. His sanctuary has been polluted, most all chase after a false god, praying to a god that isn't a god at all, that has no power to save anything let alone a soul.


Very well. You see God as a powerful king that rules the world. Actually God is an impotent God, because he gave us freewill. and He can never prevent us from using it. He can prevent the wicked from doing evil . He can prevent the altruists from doing good.
He can't prevent us from loving, nor from hating.

so...our responsibility for our sins is unlimited and there is nothing that can save us.

It's very weird that you believe in the justice on this Earth, but you don't believe in the justice of the afterlife.
actually only the justice of the afterlife is real justice. so...in other words, I don't want the wicked to be punished here.

I want the wicked to live a long, healthy and beautiful live. But when they die, I want to see their souls in eternal Hell.
That's justice. Because they had the opportunity to stop being wicked and they didn't
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I remember that when I was beginning to lose my faith in Christianity, it started out as having serious doubts and complaints about the god of the OT, and during the last part of my Christianity I only focused on the Gospels while excluding everything else.
But then I realized without the god of the OT there is no promise of a Messiah (which means Jesus couldn't have been the savior if there is no promised Messiah), and that there is no sin.
 

DrTCH

Member
"I think that it is sick to think that a vengeful, blood-thirsty and cruel God has ever existed, and that he's the God of the New Testament. I deeply think that any Christian who dares think that our God is able to kill someone (through floods, earthquakes, whatever) doesn't deserve to remain Christian and should become an Atheist. I deeply think that Genesis, Exodus and some other books like Joshua are just as legendary as the Iliad and the Odyssey. In other word it is twisted and irrational to think that the tale of Creation, of the flood are real."

I find it interesting that many scientists totally discount religion (and certainly the denial of evolutionary theory), and that many Christians--certainly "Fundamentalist" ones--deny much of scientific reality. Yet, I would propose that BOTH groups are missing the point. Scripture does not represent/ report "N.Y.Times" reality." By its very nature, it is poetic-allegorical, not factual. And, in some respects...to the extent that it is uplifting and "speaks to the human heart" it probably has legitimacy or merit. In its own realm is valuable. Would it be valuable when I am replacing the spark plugs of my car or doing my office books? Probably not. On the other hand, when I look for inspiration, I may not find it in a "double-entry" bookkeeping text or an auto manual (or a medical textbook). Each kind of communication (and world-view) has its place..in its own distinctive realm.

Now, more on the religious/scriptural side of things. 'Tis critical, seems to me, to comprehend that scripture is NOT literally the "Word of God." It is the writing, the interpretation of prophets--human beings--through the ages, and through various traditions. What's more, these human beings frequently were people with the usual human failings, strong convictions, and even psychopathology. Anyone who insists that these failings have had no effect--imbued or imposed no coloring--upon scriptural content need to reconsider (and perhaps need to have their collective heads examined).

At the very least...if we assume that there is some kind of (undefined) fundamental cosmic power or, let us say, "Ground of Being," how may we be assured that the prophet or commentator has accurately experienced and recorded this reality? Is language even CAPABLE of expressing such things? It truly gets worse than this..because in some OT passages (Koranic ones too!), we have the representation of a truly difficult, patriarchal deity...jealous, vengeful, arbitrary, frequently violent without provocation, in a word, a Middle Eastern potentate warlord type god, who neglects to wipe his feet as he enters the door, and thinks nothing of ordering the destruction of a city (or immolation of an entire world!), vanquishment or enslavement of a people or the stoning of a wayward spouse or smart-alecky child.

Please allow me to add that the passage in the OT which alludes to the idea that man was "made in the image and likeness of God." We all know (unless you have been sleeping under a rock for all your life) that psychopathology and other varieties of "twistedness" have run rampant across the planet, through history...in the form of practically neverending wars, pogroms, persecution and colonialism (and, yes, cut-throat "predatory capitalism"). If this is the case...and you happen to recall the rules taught in your one Logic class many years ago...one may safely conclude that YHWH (or however you choose to call Him) is certifiably insane. Please meditate on this. I believe I am on safe ground in my observation. And, please don't immediately try to qualify that passage by saying, "well, what the passage REALLY means is..." I fear you would have to resort to "special pleading" to make your case. If you accept the OT as literally true, you must admit that the world is ruled by a violent, mischief-filled, bipolar disorder inflicted, nutcase of a god who occasionally deigns to take us "to his breast" and shower goodies upon us…but, all too frequently, allows many forms of violence, invalidation, and pestilence to run rampant across the planet.

Now, Christianity presents some particular--and additional--problems. First, it was made the official Roman Empire religion during the reign of the emperor Constantine (who, btw, never became a Christian until he lay on his deathbed). This alone, must give one pause, nicht war?


Next, this tradition, while incessantly railing against other traditions (and frequently banishing or murdering its competitors), borrowed and incorporated great masses of "Pagan" content, including the concept of the "Trinity," the idea of purification by blood, the faith and hope of new life and purification (or "justification") based on the sacrifice of a divinity.

Then, we have the fact of significant contradictions in the Bible, and evidence that scribes and Church fathers altered passages--through the centuries--in service to their beliefs and agenda (on top of the fact that the Evangelists penned their "gospels" many years after JC dwelled on Planet Earth..if he ever actually existed as one individual, instead of as a representative of a general Middle Eastern trend). Of course, there are also problems with "John's" having elevated Jesus to the level of the "Logos" from Neo-Platonism (when there already was considerable confusion about this man's identity...prophet, Jewish king, messiah, "Son of Man" or "Suffering Servant"). I might add that Jesus never claimed personal divinity, but--when asked--actually denied this station!!

Next is the problem of a particular wing of the Christian church, led by Paul, someone who never met the historical Jesus, differed radically in theology from the Jerusalem church, and had a peculiarly Greek view of the universe and Christianity (notwithstanding his nominal status as Jew), and a distinctly pessimistic view of man's state in the cosmos.


Finally, figures like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli fashioned a Christianity which even further emphasizes the negative and morose aspects of the religious tradition. I happen to feel all right about a very lightly shouldered version of Christianity which emphasizes how we are all "children of the Living God," and which reflects the values of the "Sermon on the Mount." But anything in the way of doctrine-dogma which departs from that pretty much "gives me the willies!!" And, PLEASE, don't insist on the absolute and literal inerrancy of the Bible. That kind of unsophisticated "True Believer" rant is only suitable for young, credulous children and mental midgets. What did Paul say along these lines? "When I was a child, I thought as a child..." Yep, and he seemed to never recover from that very limited atavistic scheme and mode of mental functioning.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I remember that when I was beginning to lose my faith in Christianity, it started out as having serious doubts and complaints about the god of the OT, and during the last part of my Christianity I only focused on the Gospels while excluding everything else.
But then I realized without the god of the OT there is no promise of a Messiah (which means Jesus couldn't have been the savior if there is no promised Messiah), and that there is no sin.

Yahweh is a physical entity - Yahweh Elohim


Humans accept comfortable truths only. It is comfortable to believe that Jesus' s sacrifice washes away our sins: so men don't feel guilty and won't stop sinning.
The truth is that Jesus told us that we build our Heaven here through our deeds and nothing is gratuitous. Free will is already gratuitous. So he didn't die for our sins. He was murdered.
but this is a very uncomfortable truth.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Recently Pope Francis admitted that we are the result of evolution. That's finally what I was waiting for: that he implicitly said that he is Pelagian.
All Catholicism is proudly and implicitly Pelagian.


Given that the Creation tale is false, there has never been a garden of Eden, There have never been neither Adam nor Eve....
and there has never been the original sin.
so Jesus was not meant to be crucified because there has never been original sin.
and the Augustinian doctrine collapses miserably .
and Pelagianism stands.
I don't believe that waswhat Pope Francis was saying.

I believe this is not a given. There is no proof that the two creation accounts in Genesis are false.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I don't believe that waswhat Pope Francis was saying.

I believe this is not a given. There is no proof that the two creation accounts in Genesis are false.
You mean other than the fact we know birds didn't come before all other creatures? Amongst many other things?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You do know that one can't be merciful and just on the same level? They disagree with each other!
And you cannot call it justification for the idea that if Hitler accepted Jesus as his Saviour he could go to Heaven, whilst a tortured Jew who hadn't accepted Jesus went to Hell.

Just? I think not.

It depends on what is considered just. The meaning of the word is to line up perfection. So a just scale is one that reveals one's true wieght.

So if a person is aligned with God then he is just but a person out of alignment is not. By this standard If Hitler had received Jesus as Lord and Savior (and most likely he didn't) he would be aligned with God but the Jewish person who refuses to receive Jesus is not aligned with God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You mean other than the fact we know birds didn't come before all other creatures? Amongst many other things?
How does this say birds came first?
Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Pope's Views on Evolution Haven't Really Evolved - The Atlantic

as if Pope Francis was the only Catholic priest that said
that we evolved from non-humans

I am sure there are a lot of people who don't have a clue about the subject.

I don't agree with Pope Francis. I believe God is quite capable of making it all appear at once in full. I also don't agree that evolutionists are thinking that a creation is taking place ie that God has anything to do with the changes that occur.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
As a very modern and open-minded Catholic I want to discuss this topic.
I think that it is sick to think that a vengeful, blood-thirsty and cruel God has ever existed, and that he's the God of the New Testament. I deeply think that any Christian who dares think that our God is able to kill someone (through floods, earthquakes, whatever) doesn't deserve to remain Christian and should become an Atheist.
I deeply think that Genesis, Exodus and some other books like Joshua are just as legendary as the Iliad and the Odyssey. In other word it is twisted and irrational to think that the tale of Creation, of the flood are real.

Besides...are we really sure that the authors of Genesis and Exodus were normal people?
In the original Hebrew text God is translated from words which have nothing to do with Θεος, the Greek word for God.
- Elohim (a plural form????? but God is One , not some people)
- Yahveh (is Yahveh God? Please-....it could also be a human being, a tyrant or a landlord)

so...in other words. It is also possible that the Genesis doesn't talk about God. But about blood-thirsty conquerors named Elohim, and about a clumsy governor called Yahveh. All human beings.

God is Love . He is Wisdom, Glory, . He is Logos.
But cannot the OT God be the left hand as apposed to the RH of the NT?
We do, after all, see awful things, not just in nature, but also in man. So that would answer it would it not? The God of the OT is the God of Flesh, who sees with man's eyes.

The NT God is the right hand and therefore the son of God, Yahshuah. I and the Father are one.

There would be people representing the gods of their time. What is bound below is bound above. There is no difference.

The creation story is speaking of higher-consciousness within the mind of God. Again it will reflect down here, but not literally as a man and woman that all people come from.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
It is clear that Paul did believe that Jesus was a different God than the God of the Hebrew scriptures. He even taught that the law of Moses was given via angels and not really YHVH Himself:

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3: 19

He continues this theme throughout the book of Galatians:

8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4: 8-11

Many scholars admit that these "weak and beggarly elements" are in reference to the "angels" formerly mentioned who Paul believed gave the law of Moses. Notice that Paul is discouraging their attempts to keep Biblical holy days found in the Torah.

Paul's views on how the law of Moses originated is horribly flawed and contrary to the valid texts which make clear, in no uncertain terms, that YHVH Himself established these laws…not angels.

Jude, Jesus' brother, gives this harsh warning towards those who revile angels:

Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. Jude 1:8
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Jesus was a different story. Regardless of whether you regard Jesus as the Jewish messiah, it should be noted that Jesus believed in teaching the law of Moses until "heaven and earth pass away" (Matt 5:18). Jesus can even be found upholding some of the harshest Torah commandments which many Christians and Jews try to distance themselves from:

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONORYOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TOBE PUT TO DEATH.’ 5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,6he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Matt 15:1-6

It is crystal clear that Jesus was upholding the stoning commandments in the law of Moses. He was actually angry at the Pharisees for creating loopholes around this law! This means then that Jesus was calling for stricter observance to the commandments of Moses. It's interesting to note that when Jesus quotes from the law of Moses he said …."but God said". This is just one of the many proofs that Jesus believed that the God of the "Old Testement" was the same God that he followed himself!
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
..It's interesting to note that when Jesus quotes from the law of Moses he said …."but God said". This is just one of the many proofs that Jesus believed that the God of the "Old Testement" was the same God that he followed himself!

Exactly! Jesus, peace be with him, said that he had come to fulfil the law, not to change it..

Oh .. and he wasn't Greek or Roman ie. of pagan origin as is the 'trinity' ;)
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
No Jew who is actually practicing Judaism "accepts" the NT as anything but the scriptures of another religion.
Wouldn't the kindest thing a practicing Jew say about Christianity regarding how it's connected to Judaism be that it is effectively a heresy?
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Hmm .. keeping my opinion out of it, the above statement isn't really correct..

Many Christians feel that the OT 'has been abrogated' while many Jews don't accept the NT at all! :)
Saleem Aleichem....Muhammad_Isa....and what do you believe ?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Wouldn't the kindest thing a practicing Jew say about Christianity regarding how it's connected to Judaism be that it is effectively a heresy?
No, earliest Christianity was heresy-- what the actual followers of Jesus were doing. Anything after Paul, at least, isn't heresy because it isn't Judaism.

It's another religion altogether, no longer connected to Judaism in any meaningful way except that the effective "founders" were mostly Jewish.

Which is why, from a Jewish perspective, there is nothing wrong with non-Jews being Christian: they are non-Jews, and are entitled to do whatever they please in terms of religion, since they are not bound by the covenant of Sinai, and never were. However, if a Jew begins to practice Christianity, that is a problem, and we call that apostasy. They were bound by the covenant of Sinai, which forbids them to practice religions other than Judaism, which would include Christianity, that being a religion foreign to Judaism.
 
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