Paul created Calvanism!!!

"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:10-24

I don't even need to argue this point. Just read what Paul says.

Simplelogic said:

"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:10-24

I don't even need to argue this point. Just read what Paul says.

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I think your Bible translation is misleading. Here is a another more accurate rendering. "What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it?" (Verses 22-24) God does not predestine whether a person will serve God or not, nor does he decide before a person is born his final destiny.
Rather, "he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah allows each of us to choose whether we will serve him or not.

rusra02 said:

I think your Bible translation is misleading. Here is a another more accurate rendering. "What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it?" (Verses 22-24) God does not predestine whether a person will serve God or not, nor does he decide before a person is born his final destiny.
Rather, "he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah allows each of us to choose whether we will serve him or not.

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I could pick ANY translation of this verse and it still says the same thing. Your problem isn't with the translation but Paul's words themselves.

I alsmost didn't answer this because the proposition is so ludicrous. Anyone with any sense knows that Paul preceded Calvin and would not have known that he ws going to exist.

if Paul hadn't said idiocies ( that we are saved by grace and not by merits and works) there would have been no reformation. No Jean Calvin. No Martin Luther
there wouldn't have been another idiotic theologian called Augustine and the entire Christianity would be Pelagian now

Muffled said:

I alsmost didn't answer this because the proposition is so ludicrous. Anyone with any sense knows that Paul preceded Calvin and would not have known that he ws going to exist.

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Obviously Luther lived after Paul. The title was was referring to the fact that John Calvin's concepts were actually established by Paul himself. Thats the point of the title.

Hay85 said:

if Paul hadn't said idiocies ( that we are saved by grace and not by merits and works) there would have been no reformation. No Jean Calvin. No Martin Luther
there wouldn't have been another idiotic theologian called Augustine and the entire Christianity would be Pelagian now

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I happen to believe Paul spoke by the Holy Spirit and the concept is correct. That does not mean calvin is always correct or Luther either. I believe calling what God said "idiotic" is blasphemy.

Simplelogic said:

Obviously Luther lived after Paul. The title was was referring to the fact that John Calvin's concepts were actually established by Paul himself. Thats the point of the title.

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I beleive the title is obviously a misnomer.

I believe Paul did not form Calvin's concepts but I do think it possible that Calvin could have developed his concepts from reading Paul's letters. However Calvinism contains many concepts and although Paul's writings may be the source I believe many of Calvin's concepts come from a misinterpretation of those writings.

God's election and foreknowledge weren't established by Paul. They were established by God! And as Paul says, you can plainly see that with Jacob and Esau, and every other valid prophecy concerning future events.

Muffled said:

I happen to believe Paul spoke by the Holy Spirit and the concept is correct. That does not mean calvin is always correct or Luther either. I believe calling what God said "idiotic" is blasphemy.

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Dearest...I believe in free will. so given that God has given us free will, anyone, even prophets, disciples or apostles can use their own free will to say idiocies.
and they can use their free will to say divine things.

Sleeppy said:

God's election and foreknowledge weren't established by Paul. They were established by God! And as Paul says, you can plainly see that with Jacob and Esau, and every other valid prophecy concerning future events.

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Ok. Well I am willing to prove that the Tanakh or the "old testament" actually teaches the opposite of what you are suggesting. Nor do the words of Jesus teach any kind of predestination concept. God's ability to prophecy into the future does not mean that He is seeing things outside of time. I believe that when God speaks into the future He is telling us WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO in the future. There are numerous examples of God stating that He doesn't know what is going to happen in the future. He does have a will and a desire for certain things to happen, but I don't believe that He will force those things into being. He will use righteous men and women who choose to obey and follow Him to accomplish His goals imho.

Lets look at Paul's first proof text from the OT:

11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVETHE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” Romans 9:11-13

Lets take the time for this logic to sink in. Paul is stating emphatically that God sovereignly chooses and man has nothing to do with it. This is bad enough but things actually get much darker. Notice how Paul's reference to the twins was based of of them "not being born and had not done anything good or bad". Paul then cherry picks two verses to make the case that God actually HATED ESAU BEFORE HE WAS BORN!!! Go ahead a read the verse again and see for yourself. The following verse proves my point because Paul immediately expects someone to challenge this horribly unrighteous view of God's sovereignty:

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! Rom 9:14

People who don't know the scriptures (like the Romans) would not be able to fact check Paul's quotes, so they just took his word for it. But thankfully we can now go back and see for ourselves.

The two verses quoted above are :

Genesis 25:23
The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."

and-

Malachi 1:2
Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Paul quotes these two passages in the same breath and it is obvious that he wants us to believe that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born. Yet Malachi 1:2 was talking about Esau (the nation) which is obvious when reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau (the man) being hated before birth. The Genesis portion was referring to God's decision to bless Jacob over Esau. God is completely just to bless one man over another. Not to mention the fact that Esau was still given the promise to be a great nation. No, it doesn't sound like God hated Esau before his birth…thankfully!

Every one of Paul's "proof texts" can be easily refuted when one goes back and actually reads the OT. The rest of Romans 9 is filled with cherry picked verses which were ripped out of their context as well. I would love to elaborate on the rest of them if you want me to.

Muffled said:

I beleive the title is obviously a misnomer.

I believe Paul did not form Calvin's concepts but I do think it possible that Calvin could have developed his concepts from reading Paul's letters. However Calvinism contains many concepts and although Paul's writings may be the source I believe many of Calvin's concepts come from a misinterpretation of those writings.

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I would like for you to name one of Calvin's premises which didn't have its origins in Paul's letters.

Simplelogic said:

Ok. Well I am willing to prove that the Tanakh or the "old testament" actually teaches the opposite of what you are suggesting. Nor do the words of Jesus teach any kind of predestination concept. God's ability to prophecy into the future does not mean that He is seeing things outside of time. I believe that when God speaks into the future He is telling us WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO in the future. There are numerous examples of God stating that He doesn't know what is going to happen in the future. He does have a will and a desire for certain things to happen, but I don't believe that He will force those things into being. He will use righteous men and women who choose to obey and follow Him to accomplish His goals imho.

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Start with Jacob and Esau.. What did God do?

Sleeppy said:

Start with Jacob and Esau.. What did God do?

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Addressed above ^^^^

Simplelogic said:

Addressed above ^^^^

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You didn't address the prophecy, which is the most important piece of the puzzle here. God states before they are both born, that the older will serve the younger. What was the reason God said this, before they had even been born?

Sleeppy said:

You didn't address the prophecy, which is the most important piece of the puzzle here. God states before they are both born, that the older will serve the younger. What was the reason God said this, before they had even been born?

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I think most people don't have a problem with YHVH blessing one more than another. Paul takes it much further by suggesting that YHVH hated Esau before he was born!! Do you not see the difference?

BTW. YHVH made this prophecy after Jacob and Esau were conceived and in their mothers belly. He did not make this prophecy before they were conceived.

This may come as a shock, but YHVH is capable at looking at our genetic material in the zygote and rightly choose whom He wants to bless more. See Psalm 139 for more on His ability to do this.

Simplelogic said:

"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:10-24

I don't even need to argue this point. Just read what Paul says.

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John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The only ones who come to Jesus are those whom the Father gives?... Jesus created Calvinism!

Hay85 said:

Dearest...I believe in free will. so given that God has given us free will, anyone, even prophets, disciples or apostles can use their own free will to say idiocies.
and they can use their free will to say divine things.

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I believe this would be true if a person had not achieved the following:
Ga 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

Simplelogic said:

Lets look at Paul's first proof text from the OT:

11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVETHE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” Romans 9:11-13

Lets take the time for this logic to sink in. Paul is stating emphatically that God sovereignly chooses and man has nothing to do with it. This is bad enough but things actually get much darker. Notice how Paul's reference to the twins was based of of them "not being born and had not done anything good or bad". Paul then cherry picks two verses to make the case that God actually HATED ESAU BEFORE HE WAS BORN!!! Go ahead a read the verse again and see for yourself. The following verse proves my point because Paul immediately expects someone to challenge this horribly unrighteous view of God's sovereignty:

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! Rom 9:14

People who don't know the scriptures (like the Romans) would not be able to fact check Paul's quotes, so they just took his word for it. But thankfully we can now go back and see for ourselves.

The two verses quoted above are :

Genesis 25:23
The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."

and-

Malachi 1:2
Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Paul quotes these two passages in the same breath and it is obvious that he wants us to believe that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born. Yet Malachi 1:2 was talking about Esau (the nation) which is obvious when reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau (the man) being hated before birth. The Genesis portion was referring to God's decision to bless Jacob over Esau. God is completely just to bless one man over another. Not to mention the fact that Esau was still given the promise to be a great nation. No, it doesn't sound like God hated Esau before his birth…thankfully!

Every one of Paul's "proof texts" can be easily refuted when one goes back and actually reads the OT. The rest of Romans 9 is filled with cherry picked verses which were ripped out of their context as well. I would love to elaborate on the rest of them if you want me to.

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I believe the man can't be separated from the nation that was formed from him. That makes this argument invalid.

I believe there are two things that are not addressed in this. 1. God knows what a peson has done in past lives. 2. God knows what the person will do in future lives and how that will affect other people (citizens of his nation). Therefore His judgement may be quite correct that Esau is not worthy of the inheritance and God is justified in seeing it that way.

However I believe Paul is not addressing those issues directly but simply saying that Esau had not yet done good or evil in his life to come.

I believe Paul is correct in saying that God does things according to His own purposes and that does not require a judgement of good or evil since God will use qaulities that are neutral. For instance Jacob is more patient than Esau and that is a helpful quality for what God wishes to accomplish.