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Jesus is not god

Sabour

Well-Known Member
READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! You are ignoring the verses that comes after the verses that you quoted.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? (John 9:35)
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? (John 9:36)
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. (John 9:37)
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38)


And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Luke 24:52)




And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42)

I am not a believer in the bible, I don't take all of what the bible says. But for those who do they have a problem because there are contradictions.

I was trying to point out that there are many things said about who Jesus peace be upon him was and on of them is being a prophet.

So let us study according to the other verses, what is true and what is not true.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Numbers is talking about human fallibility

False, nothing in the verse indicate that. You are adding your interpretation to match what you already have been taught. If the point was human fallibility why not say God can't be wrong.
And John wasn't him changing his mind, He purposely said he wasn't going so that he could go alone and finally,

So he lied? That also breaks verse in Numbers. He shall not lie.
About Jesus being willing, What does it matter? Unwilling or willing, He went anyway

The matter is that numbers say that God doesn't change his mind. Anyone reading the verses would know that he DIDNT want to be crucified.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:59)

The point I am trying to make is that if he was willing at one point and than not willing at a certain point, doesn't that mean there is a change of mind?

And I don't recall you ever quoting a verse that said he was willing to die, You just said it was a teaching of Christianity which is an anecdote.

Well tell me if Jesus peace be upon him was god, why was he crucified? If he is god and was unwilling, what made the Crucifixion happen? If he was unwilling and it happened than that means he is not god because it happened against his will. If he changed his mind and became willing, than he is not god because numbers states that God is not a man that he changes his mind.
 
J

johnpeter1970

Guest
I am not a believer in the bible, I don't take all of what the bible says. But for those who do they have a problem because there are contradictions.

I was trying to point out that there are many things said about who Jesus peace be upon him was and on of them is being a prophet.

So let us study according to the other verses, what is true and what is not true.

How? Do don't belief in the Bible and I don't belief in the Quran. What are we going to base our discussion on?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
How? Do don't belief in the Bible and I don't belief in the Quran. What are we going to base our discussion on?

I am basing my arguments from the bible.

Parts of the bible say that Jesus peace be upon him can't be God, and parts of them indicate that he is. This is what I am trying to show and I am basing my arguments from the bible itself.
 

Thana

Lady
False, nothing in the verse indicate that. You are adding your interpretation to match what you already have been taught. If the point was human fallibility why not say God can't be wrong.

I'm a non-denominational Christian and I don't go to church, I make up my own mind. So my interpretation is based solely on my reason and intellect.
Your interpretations however are indoctrinated, I don't believe that demeans your beliefs but as a Muslim you have to admit that if anyone in this debate has been taught anything, it would be you.

So he lied? That also breaks verse in Numbers. He shall not lie.

He didn't lie. He just said "You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled."
And after they left, Obviously it was time.

The matter is that numbers say that God doesn't change his mind. Anyone reading the verses would know that he DIDNT want to be crucified.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:59)

The point I am trying to make is that if he was willing at one point and than not willing at a certain point, doesn't that mean there is a change of mind?

Who in their right mind would want to be crucified? And as to the verse you just quoted, Why wouldn't he avoid getting hit with stones if He could?
Where does it say He was willing? Where does He say 'I wish to be stoned' or 'I wish to be crucified'?

Well tell me if Jesus peace be upon him was god, why was he crucified? If he is god and was unwilling, what made the Crucifixion happen? If he was unwilling and it happened than that means he is not god because it happened against his will. If he changed his mind and became willing, than he is not god because numbers states that God is not a man that he changes his mind.

I'm unwilling to do the dishes, But they need to be done so I do them anyway. You don't have to want to do something to do it, And I don't know why you expect Jesus to go happily to His tortorous death? He was forgiving and loving, But he certainly wasn't happy about the situation.

Jesus was Crucified for the Salvation of the Gentiles, It was necessary just as the plagues on Egypt were necessary, So that we could know Him (God) and so He could save His people, And once Jesus died, That included everyone not just the Jews.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
I know that most members debated that countless times and the debate is getting old, but actually I came through 2 verses in the bible that would explicitly say that Jesus peace be upon him was not god.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

Now there are many verses in the bible that do serve the same purpose, but I think these two would be enough for now and I would see how the discussion would progress.
Please Read and Understand:
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to Understand here?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I'm a non-denominational Christian and I don't go to church, I make up my own mind. So my interpretation is based solely on my reason and intellect.
Your interpretations however are indoctrinated, I don't believe that demeans your beliefs but as a Muslim you have to admit that if anyone in this debate has been taught anything, it would be you.

As muslims we have to verify what we believe in. Your claim is not true.

He didn't lie. He just said "You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled."
And after they left, Obviously it was time.

That is a wrong interpretation for my time has not yet been fulfilled

Who in their right mind would want to be crucified? And as to the verse you just quoted, Why wouldn't he avoid getting hit with stones if He could?
Where does it say He was willing? Where does He say 'I wish to be stoned' or 'I wish to be crucified'?

If he is not willing and he is god, why would he be crucified?

I'm unwilling to do the dishes, But they need to be done so I do them anyway. You don't have to want to do something to do it, And I don't know why you expect Jesus to go happily to His tortorous death? He was forgiving and loving, But he certainly wasn't happy about the situation.

Jesus was Crucified for the Salvation of the Gentiles, It was necessary just as the plagues on Egypt were necessary, So that we could know Him (God) and so He could save His people, And once Jesus died, That included everyone not just the Jews.

You are claiming that is is god, you can't apply the dishes logic to what you claim is god. God is not bound by a situation to say that he have to do that for salvation. So you agree he was unwilling. So if he is unwilling and he was god and can find another way, why was he crucified ? Is god incapable of doing what he wills ?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Please Read and Understand:
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to Understand here?

There is nothing hard to understand here, you can understand it the way you want. However what you are trying to say here contradicts with other parts of the bible.

Matthew 15:9
"But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

What is so hard to understand here ?
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
He didn't lie. He just said "You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled."
And after they left, Obviously it was time.
I have the same interpretation. The Lord Jesus does not follow the world’s time or “but your time is always ready” but what He follows is/was God’s time.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus changed his mind about healing the daughter of a Canaanite woman.

Matthew 15:22-28
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
There is nothing hard to understand here, you can understand it the way you want. However what you are trying to say here contradicts with other parts of the bible.
I was trying to say? It’s as simple as READ it yourself so you can UNDERSTAND. You don’t have to believe. All you have to do is UNDERSTAND.

Remember you presented 2 verses that says, or implying, that the Lord Jesus was just a man.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

Then I gave you 3 verses how He/Jesus/God became man

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to understand here?

Matthew 15:9"But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Who was He/Jesus referring here? To God in 15:4
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I was trying to say? It’s as simple as READ it yourself so you can UNDERSTAND. You don’t have to believe. All you have to do is UNDERSTAND.

Remember you presented 2 verses that says, or implying, that the Lord Jesus was just a man.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

Then I gave you 3 verses how He/Jesus/God became man

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to understand here?

Matthew 15:9"But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Who was He/Jesus referring here? To God in 15:4[/QUOTE]
JMC things don't work that way if a statement says God is not a man and you believe in it that means God is not a man in all cases. That means it is an attribute of God.

If you go to another place to quote and explain how God became man, than this is a contradiction.

In order for you to believe that God came man, you have to reject the verse that says God is not a man.

We are talking about the nature of God here, something which God would be very explicit about. There are no games and assumptions here when it comes to the nature of God.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it is very obvious that it is OK to see Jesus either way. The Bible seems to indicate Jesus is God and if you read it that way then Jesus is God. The Bible also indicates Jesus is not God and if you want to read it that way then Jesus is not God. Unless you are God The Father there is NO WAY of knowing either is true. To be insisting Jesus is God or Jesus is not God reveals in the person self righteousness and a trusting in MAN who wrote it both ways.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
There is not one verse in Bible where Jesus pbuh clearly says: Iam God, worship me.The opposite is presented in bible. Jesus prays to God, Jesus says God is greater than himself, Jesus says no one knows the Hour except God alone(not the son, not the angels), the people at that time saw Jesus as prophet. He himself said no prophet is honoured in his homeland jerusalem.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:11

"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19

The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19

"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." John 6:14


"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet." John 7:40

How did Jesus pbuh view himself?
"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." Luke 13:33

And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.Matthew 13:57



“For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.”John 12:49


Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. John 14:24


“Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.John 7:16


Unbelievable! So many verses on the prophethood of Jesus peace be upon , and not 1 verse where he says "Iam Incarnation of God, worship me."
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
JMC things don't work that way if a statement says God is not a man and you believe in it that means God is not a man in all cases. That means it is an attribute of God.
If you go to another place to quote and explain how God became man, than this is a contradiction.

In order for you to believe that God came man, you have to reject the verse that says God is not a man.
We are talking about the nature of God here, something which God would be very explicit about. There are no games and assumptions here when it comes to the nature of God.
I cannot debate you from my own opinion only and that was the reason I presented you how God became flesh in

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to understand here?

Your argument here “Jesus of Nazareth was a man” should be understood as how God became flesh in John 1:14.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

And if you read these 2 verses it says the same thing.

Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

As human, He/Jesus came from the line of David according to the scriptures in the OT of course and please READ AND UNDERSTAND this, His human genealogy in –Jn 1:14-, in Luke 3:23-38 and in Matthew 1:1-17 we can read that He is related, in the flesh, to Isaac, the half- brother of Ishmael.

In verse 4 of Romans chapter 1 you can read that after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit declared Him/Jesus as the Son of God. And in Hebrews 1:8 God the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob called His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as God.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Let me ask you, is Ishmael a direct ancestor of Muhammad, or can you trace Muhammad’s genealogy to Ishmael? I don’t think so, because you have no written proof that he was from Ishmael, not at all.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They say Jesus is God but the part of God that does not get worshipped. Like we should worship just a part of God. Like men you know worship a woman's breasts and NOT her talk.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The verse never said He was unwilling, even so I imagine a part of Him was. Wouldn't you be uneager to suffer torture and death? The verse merely portrays that He was afraid.

Would you be afraid, if you were God?

Ciao

- viole
 

Thana

Lady
As muslims we have to verify what we believe in. Your claim is not true.

So? You're taught it in the first place, Whether you verify it after the fact is irrelevant.

That is a wrong interpretation for my time has not yet been fulfilled

So I'm wrong because....? I mean you haven't provided a reason why I am wrong except because you don't like it.

If he is not willing and he is god, why would he be crucified?

Like I said before, It was necessary for the Salvation of the Gentiles.

You are claiming that is is god, you can't apply the dishes logic to what you claim is god. God is not bound by a situation to say that he have to do that for salvation. So you agree he was unwilling. So if he is unwilling and he was god and can find another way, why was he crucified ? Is god incapable of doing what he wills ?

He isn't bound except by His own will, So He follows a certain path because He wants the outcome. So He sent Himself in the flesh of a human son to graft in the Gentiles into the Convenant made with His people. I'm sure He could have found another way, Heck, He could of just made us without free will, Just robots that worshipped and loved Him because we knew nothing else. But no, there is a reason for everything and I believe that Jesus was sent in such a way as to limit God's effect on Free will.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
There is not one verse in Bible where Jesus pbuh clearly says: Iam God, worship me.
But there is one verse in Bible where God the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob clearly says to His One and Only Son, the Lord Jesus as God.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

How can you argue from this?
 

Thana

Lady
Would you be afraid, if you were God?

Ciao

- viole

He was also a man that could feel pain just as much as anyone of us, It was that way for a reason. So that no matter what we suffered, We'd know that He had suffered too and that we have no excuses.
 
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