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Cop murders 12 year old boy

Yeshe Dondrub

Yeshe Dondrub

Kagyupa OBT-Thubetan
There is no cut and dry with cases like this, and defiantly the fergerson cases is an example where a 18 year old man (not teen) who happened to be over 6 foot tall and more then 300lb, reached into a police car of an officer to assault him, then later was shot, however at this point 12 shots was hardly needed at even the size of the man.

I know many police officers due to the charity and community work we do. Many have genuine care of the community and will work with youth to help them, and hopefully help them gain confidence for school, and career. Some children benefit, while other lack discipline, and do not care.

When you are faced with people, or youth who do not listen to instruction, are a potential endangerment to others. You can not assume anything. Youth should know not to aim weapons at people, real or fake. Officers are not going to assume it is fake. I wonder if the boy removed the end coloring of a toy gun to make it seem real.

However some police go to extreme and need some compassion lessons. A few here I know don't understand why at the point in the past Ferg case, he wasn't unable to unbelt his mace as a first step. Why it took 12 shots,, and why the primary shot was one not to disable him to subdue him, regardless how big he was.

In the case of the 12 year old, If he aimed the gun at the officers, that was really poor education from parents. From officials in schools as well. If not, then the police should be able to subdue a 12 year old fairly fast.

Howvevr, the boy was not in the right either,. I just wish there were better long distance disabling, non fatal defense options for police to use without having to kill people.
 
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Yeshe Dondrub

Yeshe Dondrub

Kagyupa OBT-Thubetan
Paradox22 said:
I just watched the video. The police car drove right up beside the boy. Then the officer in the passenger side jumped out of the car and immediately shot the boy from close range. There is no way the kid had a chance to react before he was killed at point blank range. The police were in no danger before they drove up to the boy to shoot him. They could have shouted instructions from a safe distance, hiding behind their car, and waited to see if he would comply. Very bad shooting
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Suposibly ther was already another on the scene at distance who ordered him to, the second unit came in, but with the time lapse camera when you look at time, there is a several second gap of time in each frame.

There was also a longer gap in time they tried to help him after he was shot.
 
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S

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
If owning guns is an easy thing for the public, what do you expect could come from the police?

Where I live there are orders for the police to never have their guns loaded, not just secured. To never engage in a pursuit, but to catch the details and make a chain of reports to gather up on the suspect. As I speak, I can't remember any shooting similar to that of the subject at least happened, let alone in the near past. Maybe the police in USA have more authority than they actually need? But then again, crime is well known to happen there so their guns have to be loaded all the time.

Dunno. I guess it all adds up. I don't think it is a simple matter of why did the police cause a death of a kid. What happens in a community is not a result of a thing or two, but a whole lot of things adding up together.

Again, I don't know anymore. Please ignore my ranting. Then again, am I the only one ranting? (oops)
 
Yeshe Dondrub

Yeshe Dondrub

Kagyupa OBT-Thubetan
With the increase in school shootings, they are more on edge, even with youth, but even some of our police agree, they did not act properly and there was a better solution.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Smart_Guy said:
Where I live there are orders for the police to never have their guns loaded, not just secured. To never engage in a pursuit, but to catch the details and make a chain of reports to gather up on the suspect.
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Interesting story:
Back in the early 80s, I was doing some contract engineering for GM. I'd just finished designing an air brake control system for heavy trucks, & was looking for something else to do there. The Saudi government was exploring developing a new vehicle for their cops. It was to be a Suburban set up to run at 130 mph sustained speed, & a forward facing machine gun was to pop up out of the roof. Supposedly, it was to pursue rum runners. Alas, I never got to work on the project.
 
S

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
Interesting story:
Back in the early 80s, I was doing some contract engineering for GM. I'd just finished designing an air brake control system for heavy trucks, & was looking for something else to do there. The Saudi government was exploring developing a new vehicle for their cops. It was to be a Suburban set up to run at 130 mph sustained speed, & a forward facing machine gun was to pop up out of the roof. Supposedly, it was to pursue rum runners. Alas, I never got to work on the project.
Click to expand...

Hey that's cool!

It is probably... I'm afraid I can't talk about it here for personal safety reasons:(. We also have an army like other countries, so maybe :)
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Smart_Guy said:
Hey that's cool!
It is probably... I'm afraid I can't talk about it here for personal safety reasons:(. We also have an army like other countries, so maybe :)
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I don't even know if they went ahead with the program. But like you say, COOL!
 
Paradox22

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
Yeshe Dondrub said:
Suposibly ther was already another on the scene at distance who ordered him to, the second unit came in, but with the time lapse camera when you look at time, there is a several second gap of time in each frame.

There was also a longer gap in time they tried to help him after he was shot.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that added info and perspective. I am embarrassed that I did not realize the implications of the time-lapse.
 
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freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Yeshe Dondrub said:
Suposibly ther was already another on the scene at distance who ordered him to, the second unit came in, but with the time lapse camera when you look at time, there is a several second gap of time in each frame.
Click to expand...

What's your source for another unit being on the scene first? That's not mentioned in any source I can find, even the sources that support the police. Also, the video is in real time. It's about 2 frames per second not several seconds per frame.
 
JerryL

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Paradox22 said:
(3) The kid was not waving a gun around at that time. He had been sitting at the picnic table for a while with his head down. Then he got up and slowly walked in the direction of the sidewalk. That is when the patrol car drove up between him and the sidewalk. 3 second later it was all over. The police were only in danger because they drove up to within 10 feet of the boy. They could have just stopped a safe distance away, got behind their car, and shouted instructions to put down the gun without putting anyone in danger. The driver's decision to stop that close to the boy meant that the other cop had to either stay in the car, right next to an armed boy, or exit the car right next to the armed boy. Once he is out of the car, they are only about ten feet from each other and the officer is in a very dangerous position. At that point its easy to see how he could be thinking he has to shoot or be shot. But it never had to come to that
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I'm not sure that actually works.

If I park so far away that you cannot shoot me (and what range is that BTW?), then I cannot shoot you. You can run. You can shoot other people. You can approach and shoot at me. Bullets are just as effective one way as the other.

I'm not sure why they came so close. It seems to have put the passenger in more potential danger than it should have and thus escalated the situation. I find the video disturbing but not compelling. It looks bad. I suspect mistakes were made. There's not enough to draw conclusions though.
 
Yeshe Dondrub

Yeshe Dondrub

Kagyupa OBT-Thubetan
freethinker44 said:
What's your source for another unit being on the scene first? That's not mentioned in any source I can find, even the sources that support the police. Also, the video is in real time. It's about 2 frames per second not several seconds per frame.
Click to expand...

They were watching a longer coverage here on CNN which was discussing aspects of the calls, complaints from various people at the mark, so interviews with other people with children at the park. The boys yelling, and those covering the scene waiting on another from the department.

It would be obvious with a call of a possible weapon, there would be more then one on the scene before hand. However we will have to wait to see.

Time lapse cameras miss frames and are played back at 30 fps but do not record 30 fps. Which is why you will mix body movement. We had similar issues with thefts of Buddhist items taken, and you see it in the security camera playback when they came to review them. You miss two items being placed into a jacket.

Many of the officers here feel it wasn't done properly, but there is still limited data.

The problem with media coverage is often the hype they create, information that isn't correct before reviews are done.

Which creates an excuse that all police are the same, people shouldn't listen, and obey the police. Which is often why they find themselves arrested.

When I look at the video it appears at first that the boy had no time to react, did reach down, then fell, but you are not seeing all frames of the action. You simply will not have complete smooth motion for those security cameras, while played back at a higher frame rate, it is not recording the correct frame rate.

We will see after more investigations and after information is reviewed. Hopefully it will result in different procedures. As well as children not acting improperly to begin the situation. He was only 12 years old.
 
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freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Yeshe Dondrub said:
They were watching a longer coverage here on CNN which was discussing aspects of the calls, complaints from various people at the mark, so interviews with other people with children at the park. The boys yelling, and those covering the scene waiting on another from the department.

It would be obvious with a call of a possible weapon, there would be more then one on the scene before hand. However we will have to wait to see.

Time lapse cameras miss frames and are played back at 30 fps but do not record 30 fps. Which is why you will mix body movement. We had similar issues with thefts of Buddhist items taken, and you see it in the security camera playback when they came to review them. You miss two items being placed into a jacket.

Many of the officers here feel it wasn't done properly, but there is still limited data.

The problem with media coverage is often the hype they create, information that isn't correct before reviews are done.

Which creates an excuse that all police are the same, people shouldn't listen, and obey the police. Which is often why they find themselves arrested.

When I look at the video it appears at first that the boy had no time to react, did reach down, then fell, but you are not seeing all frames of the action. You simply will not have complete smooth motion for those security cameras, while played back at a higher frame rate, it is not recording the correct frame rate.

We will see after more investigations and after information is reviewed. Hopefully it will result in different procedures. As well as children not acting improperly to begin the situation. He was only 12 years old.
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It's not played at a higher frame rate, the video is played in real time at a couple frames per second. From the arrival time of the police to the moment the boy is shot is 1.5 to 2 seconds. As far as I know, no one is disputing that. That's even what CNN says about it.
Video of Cleveland police shooting of boy released - CNN.com
 
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Paradox22

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
JerryL said:
I'm not sure why they came so close. It seems to have put the passenger in more potential danger than it should have and thus escalated the situation.
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I am no expert but as you point out, it seems like the driver placed his partner in a high risk situation by stopping so close. Basically, he forced a close proximity stand-off situation. If they felt it was necessary to take out the kid fast, they could have shot from their car, at a reasonable distance. Staying at a distance would also give the person more time to comply with shouted instructions. Driving right up to the person forces a confrontation between two armed people. How is that good tactics? I am not claiming that they are monsters. I am claiming that at least the driver, who is the veteran, displayed poor judgement
 
Yeshe Dondrub

Yeshe Dondrub

Kagyupa OBT-Thubetan
I do agree he didn't have time to react and it was not properly handled, and in no way show they have moved the vehicle that close to him and not speak to him and tell him to drop the perceived weapon.

Is we have two problems. A child acting threating to public, even if the gun is a toy, it is purposely altered to look threatening. He had a threatening mind set even if it was play of an impropriate manner.

Then we have police answering calls from concerned citizens, and dispatch not properly making statements that it may be a fake weapon. Police not following protocol,, and a youth shot and killed.

I was just informed by officers that they are entitled to act in accordance to a public safety call of a possible weapon, and if a person regardless of age makes public threat they can act with force. Yet they more often make the choice to give a person a doubt, even if it risks the police.

It is truly sad a child 12 years old lost his life in the situation. He however wasn't acting proper. With more cases of children shooting children, officers, and others, there is a real risk, and we need to assure our child act properly and educate them on why.

I don't think any police officer wants to shoot a child, and it is something they have to now live with.


Things to remember we have had youths kill with guns. The risk of potential is real, even if the gun was not.

All police are not poor examples, with the work they do, many more are fine examples. This is not an excuse to disobey them. I however is a chance to evaluate some of them on a more regular bases and stricter continued training in situations.
 
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