God simply doesn't care

Skwim said:

Why? Aren't all things possible with god?


So, speaking about those excluded from the "many," what happens to them?

Click to expand...

They were given a choice, just like all of us--those who listened to Jesus know this truth. Those who didn't--probably did not know. --Deuteronomy 30:19
Jesus taught for the many who walk the broad and spacious path-destruction.
Rev teaches Jesus will rule with an iron rod( exact image of his Father)
There is 0 room for sin.

kjw47 said:

They were given a choice, just like all of us--those who listened to Jesus know this truth.

Click to expand...

Keep in mind we're talking about all those who died and never made it to heaven, but ended up in its alternative: hell With this in mind, it appears you're saying that Jesus will appear to everyone in hell and give them one last chance to get with the program.

Jesus taught for the many who walk the broad and spacious path-destruction.
Rev teaches Jesus will rule with an iron rod( exact image of his Father)
There is 0 room for sin.

Click to expand...

I assume you're back to talking about earthly existence now, or not. Your tenses here, "taught for," "who walk," and "will rule" are confusing. Please rephrase.

Skwim said:

And you call yourself a theologian. May as well call yourself king of the universe.

Click to expand...

If I can be called...brother and fellow servant....it will be sufficient!

Skwim said:

Keep in mind we're talking about all those who died and never made it to heaven, but ended up in its alternative: hell With this in mind, it appears you're saying that Jesus will appear to everyone in hell and give them one last chance to get with the program.

I assume you're back to talking about earthly existence now, or not. Your tenses here, "taught for," "who walk," and "will rule" are confusing. Please rephrase.

Click to expand...

Hebrew= Sheol-- Greek = Hades-- the common grave. Not an eternal place of suffering.
There will be a resurrection--post Harmageddon to earth.
The lake of fire( eternal destruction)= the second death. For those who follow satan when he is loosed once again for a short while.

kjw47 said:

Hebrew= Sheol-- Greek = Hades-- the common grave. Not an eternal place of suffering.
There will be a resurrection--post Harmageddon to earth.
The lake of fire( eternal destruction)= the second death. For those who follow satan when he is loosed once again for a short while.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear about hell:.

Here's its etymology


And, it's mentioned by that very name in several versions of the Bible. Here are some from the King James Version

So just what happens in hell, and is it everlasting?


So, hell is indeed an everlasting place of burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, and abhorrence.

Skwim said:

Just to be clear about hell:.

So just what happens in hell, and is it everlasting?
So, hell is indeed an everlasting place of burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, and abhorrence.

Click to expand...

How about some straightforward thinking for a change?
Given that life can be spiritual and eternal.......
You are go where you are allowed to be.
If you are cast out from any place.....that place is not for you.

So most likely....
You will end up with others like yourself.
They think and feel the same way you do.

How else to be fair....How else to be happy?

For some this will be heaven.
For others.....hell.

Skwim said:

Just to be clear about hell:.

Here's its etymology

"In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "state of misery, any bad experience" since at least late 14c. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1670s".
source​

And, it's mentioned by that very name in several versions of the Bible. Here are some from the King James Version

Deuteronomy 32:22 (KJV)
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Job 26:6 (KJV)
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Psalm 55:15 (KJV)
15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Isaiah 28:18 (KJV)
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Amos 9:2 (KJV)
2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jonah 2:2 (KJV)
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Habakkuk 2:5 (KJV)
5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:​

So just what happens in hell, and is it everlasting?

Deuteronomy 32:22 (KJV)
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.​

Daniel 12:2 (NLV)
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will wake up. Some will have life that lasts forever, but others will have shame and will suffer much forever.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV)
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 (AMP)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence.

Daniel 12:2 (CEV)
2 Many of those who lie dead in the ground will rise from death. Some of them will be given eternal life, and others will receive nothing but eternal shame and disgrace.

Daniel 12:2 (JUB)
2 And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be awakened, some for eternal life, and some for shame and everlasting confusion.


Daniel 12:2 (NIRV)
2 “Huge numbers of people who lie dead in their graves will wake up. Some will rise up to life that will never end. Others will rise up to shame that will never end.
​

So, hell is indeed an everlasting place of burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, and abhorrence.

Click to expand...

In the ot- Hebrew--Sheol- where you have hell listed--Sheol = the common grave. ]
Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust.
The first resurrection has occurred-- there will be a resurrection to earth--post Har-mageddon as well.

Skwim said:

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.
So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?
Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.
Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

Click to expand...

Missed the element, so to speak, of Genesis 3 v 15. Right away God let us know that a ' seed' [ Messiah ] would appear for saving mankind.

Please keep in mind that Abraham was demonstrating for us his confidence in an earthly resurrection. Abraham knew Isaac would have to be alive to be part of the promised ' seed'.
In order for Issac to be alive, a dead Isaac would have to be resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth.

No one who died before Jesus ascended to heaven - see John 3 v 13
That is why John the Baptist and King David did Not ascend - Matthew 11 v 11; Acts 2 v 34
That means all those faithful ones of old - see Hebrews chapter 11 - are still sleeping in death.
- Hebrews 11 vs 13,39; Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Dan. 12 vs 2,13

Their death stamps the wages, or price tag of sin, as Paid In Full.
- See Romans 6 vs 23,7
As verse 7 says a person's death frees or acquits a person of their sins.
That does Not make a person as now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges no longer stick, Jesus, as righteous judge, can pardon a person so the sin charges no longer stick.

Can you think of a decent person who went to hell ?__________
Jesus was a decent person, and the day Jesus died Jesus went to hell - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32
Jesus did Not go to some permanent non-biblical hell of religious-myth teachings.
Jesus went to the temporary biblical hell or grave until God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
Since Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state at John 11 vs 11-14 then Jesus believed that while in the Bible's hell that he would also be in a sleeping condition while in hell.

Please remember: according to Matthew 20 v 28 that Jesus' ransom covers MANY.
So, except for those of Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4,6, the majority of mankind will have a resurrection - see Acts 24 v 15.

We can Not resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can do that for us.
Jesus can and will - Rev. 1 v 18 - because Jesus has the keys to unlock the grave for the majority of mankind. Most to have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.

Thief said:

How about some straightforward thinking for a change?
Given that life can be spiritual and eternal.......
You are go where you are allowed to be.
If you are cast out from any place.....that place is not for you.
So most likely....
You will end up with others like yourself.
They think and feel the same way you do.
How else to be fair....How else to be happy?
For some this will be heaven.
For others.....hell.

Click to expand...

To which ' hell ' are you referring?____________
* There is the permanent non-biblical burning-forever hell just taught as being Scripture.
* There is the temporary Bible's hell where the dead sleep in death until resurrected out of hell.

Before Jesus the hope the Jews had was to be awakened from death's deep sleep at a later or future time to live life again on earth.- Hebrews 11 vs 13,39; John 3 v 13; Psalm 37 vs 11,29

According to Revelation 20 vs 13,14 after everyone in the temporary Bible's hell [ grave ] is ' delivered up' [ resurrected out of hell ] then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell.

Some have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10; 2 v 10.
Whereas the majority of mankind will be resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth. Please notice the ' future tense ' used at Acts 24 v 15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
The wicked, on the other hand, will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92 v 7

What is unique about our day or time frame is that we are nearing the coming ' time of separation' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 when the humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on earth, and continue to live on earth, right into the start of Jesus millennium-long day of reigning over earth.

kjw47 said:

In the ot- Hebrew--Sheol- where you have hell listed--Sheol = the common grave. ]
Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust.
The first resurrection has occurred-- there will be a resurrection to earth--post Har-mageddon as well.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I can't make heads or tails of this.

URAVIP2ME said:

Missed the element, so to speak, of Genesis 3 v 15. Right away God let us know that a ' seed' [ Messiah ] would appear for saving mankind.

Click to expand...

Hardly does anything for those who have died waiting, those who've never heard of this little verse and have died waiting, and all the others who never got the message. This does absolutely nothing to clear god of his immoral offense.

Please keep in mind that Abraham was demonstrating for us his confidence in an earthly resurrection. Abraham knew Isaac would have to be alive to be part of the promised ' seed'.
In order for Issac to be alive, a dead Isaac would have to be resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth.

Click to expand...

Doesn't help one bit. God is still a contemptible malefactor.

No one who died before Jesus ascended to heaven - see John 3 v 13
That is why John the Baptist and King David did Not ascend - Matthew 11 v 11; Acts 2 v 34
That means all those faithful ones of old - see Hebrews chapter 11 - are still sleeping in death.
- Hebrews 11 vs 13,39; Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Dan. 12 vs 2,13

Click to expand...

I know it may seem that taking a word and redefining it to suite your purposes works, but it doesn't. It's equivocating, a fallacious form of argument.

Their death stamps the wages, or price tag of sin, as Paid In Full.
- See Romans 6 vs 23,7
As verse 7 says a person's death frees or acquits a person of their sins.
That does Not make a person as now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges no longer stick, Jesus, as righteous judge, can pardon a person so the sin charges no longer stick.

Click to expand...

So as long as Jesus is going to pardon all my sins why should I care about keeping any of the commandments or concern myself with sinning? Or has he written up a new set of rules for pardoning those anguishing in hell, which may or may not get me out of the oven? In any case this still does absolutely nothing to clear god of his immoral offense: letting some burn in hell---some even forever---because they never got the opportunity to make a bid for salvation, or worse yet yet, were put off of Christianity by an inept preacher of the "Word."

Can you think of a decent person who went to hell ?__________

Click to expand...

Not believing in hell, this is a moot question. I'm only operating within the framework of Christian teachings, principally the Bible.

Jesus was a decent person, and the day Jesus died Jesus went to hell - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32
Jesus did Not go to some permanent non-biblical hell of religious-myth teachings.
Jesus went to the temporary biblical hell or grave until God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
Since Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state at John 11 vs 11-14 then Jesus believed that while in the Bible's hell that he would also be in a sleeping condition while in hell.

Click to expand...

Nice thought, but it's hardly how the Bible describes hell. See post 105 here where it says "hell is indeed an everlasting place of burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, and abhorrence."

Please remember: according to Matthew 20 v 28 that Jesus' ransom covers MANY.
So, except for those of Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4,6, the majority of mankind will have a resurrection - see Acts 24 v 15.

Click to expand...

So you've said, and so I've countered: This does absolutely nothing to clear god of his immorality.

URAVIP2ME said:

To which ' hell ' are you referring.

Click to expand...

I have an impression the next life is side by side with multiple facets.
Note the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Skwim said:

Sorry, but I can't make heads or tails of this.

Click to expand...

The word hell did not exist in the old testament--Sheol is the word. Same word in greek = Hades.--both words translate--the common grave. There is no place of eternal suffering. Its an impossibility for hell to be literal. Gods word was showing --symbolism for the eternal value of what one loses by not entering Gods kingdom.

Thief said:

I have an impression the next life is side by side with multiple facets.
Note the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Click to expand...

symbolism.( Luke 16:20- 31)

kjw47 said:

The word hell did not exist in the old testament

Click to expand...

Neither did "heaven" an Old English word, or "Savior" and Old French word, or "world" another Old English word. Point being, so what? Different languages use different words for the same thing.

Sheol is the word. Same word in greek = Hades.--both words translate--the common grave.

Click to expand...

Regardless of what "sheol" and "hades" may literally mean, they and their counterpart "hell" all refer to the same thing in the same Biblical passages.

There is no place of eternal suffering. Its an impossibility for hell to be literal. Gods word was showing --symbolism for the eternal value of what one loses by not entering Gods kingdom.

Click to expand...

Then you'll have to explain away all the scriptural references I posted in post #105 here, such as

• Daniel 12:2 (NLV)
  2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will wake up. Some will have life that lasts forever, but others will have shame and will suffer much forever.

kjw47 said:

symbolism.( Luke 16:20- 31)

Click to expand...

So it is a story that describes a seriously possible scenario........

Skwim said:

So you're saying that salvation didn't begin with the death and resurrection of Jesus, but was always there?


And the anti-intellectual wants to desperately ignore the complicating implications of his beliefs so as to remain secure in his faith. Christianity is certainly a living religion, but one whose adherents live in fear of the specter of doubt. And this response is typical. Don't address the issue but attack those that raise them: "The anti-Christians want to narrow down Christianity to the ancient narrowest perspective." what ever that means.

Click to expand...

Actually, whether anti-Christians or Christians themselves, I put more blame on Xians here, it's their claimed religion, do make this mistake, although often honestly. So he's correct in the 'mistake' of narrowing Xianity to historical persona study, that isn't what the religion actually is.
This also poses a problem for your OP, because it is very literal in a 'god' having a 'son', in a linear Jewish context. As usual it is confusing because that isn't how the religions are actually practiced. In fact the Judaism aspect of the Xian 'narrative' isn't even relevant, totally different religion.

Thief said:

So it is a story that describes a seriously possible scenario........

Click to expand...

'Judgment', or 'hell'. what's the difference. 'Judgment' infers punishment i.e. 'hell' of some sort.
Personally I do believe that Xianity has always had a 'hell', regardless. That's why the early translators used 'Hades', it's a close approximation imo.

disciple said:

'Judgment', or 'hell'. what's the difference. 'Judgment' infers punishment i.e. 'hell' of some sort.
Personally I do believe that Xianity has always had a 'hell', regardless. That's why the early translators used 'Hades', it's a close approximation imo.

Click to expand...

Judgment would be dealt by Someone able to apply the line drawn.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man contains proximity....and lines drawn.

Thief said:

Judgment would be dealt by Someone able to apply the line drawn.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man contains proximity....and lines drawn.

Click to expand...

Then you have to have a 'hell' of some sort. Otherwise it's hardly a matter of 'judgment'.