Be Honest

beckysoup61 said:

I don't know if I put this in the right spot, or if it is allowed, but I want to know.


I want to know what you think of the LDS, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon -- truthfully. Instead of writing it here how about you PM me -- I want real opinions.

I will not take and publsih those PM's in any sort of thread, but i may take ideas or something you say and redo it in words to better address the issue.

Go ahead, say WHATEVER YOU WANT -- BUT BE SURE TO PM ME!!!

Click to expand...

i am skeptical of many things, but the validity of the LDS faith is deffinatley not one of them :hug:

as you know, Becky, from our many MSN conversations, i agree with quite a few LDS doctrines

no PM sent, as my public oppinion is always my truthful oppinion

I really appreciate everyone's answers so far, they were just what I was looking for. You were honest and forthright (is that the right word?) and I apprecite how you were respectful (most of you) about it.

As I've said previously in other thread, I don't believe in angels, especially visitations. It's not just Joseph Smith I am doubtful of, but also of Muhammad and other Jewish prophets, who are met by angels. I am just sceptical about these type of things.

The Book of Mormon. Well, I would have believe in it, had the gold plates Joseph Smith received were still here, as proof. But it is not. I am also doubtful of BoM assertion that they travelled to the New World.

As to the LDS church itself. I got nothing against them. My sister and her family are Mormons. Although I don't share her belief, I respect it. At one time, I almost join my sister when I was a teenager, but it would not be honest of me to join, if I didn't share that belief. I would have join because it was my sister's church, not because I believe in Joseph Smith or the BoM. I was only just one day away from being baptised, but didn't. My sister was obviously disappointed, but she didn't pressure me.

I talk very little about religion with my sister and her family, so not to offend her with my agnostic and pragmatic view on religion.

What I do like about LDS is their teaching of family values and ties as being very important.

PM is not needed.

beckysoup61 said:

I want to know what you think of the LDS, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon -- truthfully. Instead of writing it here how about you PM me -- I want real opinions.

Click to expand...

I have nothing but love and respect and admiration for the vast majority of Mormons that I've met. However, I do feel that their moral system is too strict and they set up too many boundaries for themselves, protecting themselves from the outside world. There is a kind of Jewish mentality there that often leads to a sort of exclusivity and tribalism, which is fine, but it isn't for me. I'm a leaf on the wind.

Joseph Smith was not a prophet in my mind and I don't think he did a very good job of pulling it off. I'm shocked and amazed that Mormonism ever took off, but I'm glad it did. I believe it will one day be the largest religion in America (maybe 200 years in the future) and I think the nation will be better off for it.

The Book of Mormon is a bit peculiar for my tastes and I can't really imagine using it as Scripture.

I live about 12 minutes from the Mormon Temple outside DC and it is one of the most beautiful buildings I've ever seen. It makes me think of gods as soon as I see it. I imagine angles perched upon it. Anyway, beautiful religion, beautiful people, just not for me. Too strict. I always defend Mormonism to Christians who bash it without knowing a damn thing about it.

I don't know much about actual Mormon teachings, so I don't think I could provide a fair judgement. However I do think that within Christianity, the books of the Bible are what is important (including some non-cannon books) and adding scripture to it with modern day prophets is unnecessary, and could be taking away from the real meaning of Christianity.

Agreed.

My PM commentary is unchanged from public commentary. I would not express my views re: the LDS church any differently whether publicly nor privately. Those that know me know this to be true.

Well LDS in general is sillier than most other religions (which themselves are quite silly), but I will give them props for (belatedly), changing their minds in 1978.

So, while this change came late, it was a downright nimble move compared to the enormous stodginess of most religions.

Bishka said:

I don't know if I put this in the right spot, or if it is allowed, but I want to know.


I want to know what you think of the LDS, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon -- truthfully. Instead of writing it here how about you PM me -- I want real opinions.

I will not take and publsih those PM's in any sort of thread, but i may take ideas or something you say and redo it in words to better address the issue.

Go ahead, say WHATEVER YOU WANT -- BUT BE SURE TO PM ME!!!

Click to expand...

I am not going to PM you, mostly because I want to be very clear that I am not misquoted, both so that I can accurately defend what I say, or apologize for it if necessary. So it should be public, not private.

I've met a number of Mormons, who are mostly very nice people, who do a lot of good work in the community. I can't speak entirely ill of a tradition that produces substantial charitable works and decent, contributing members of the greater community.

That said, I have a number of theological problems with LDS, over and above the usual theological issues I have with Christianity. Chief on the list would be that I don't find Joseph Smith's story credible.

I have read the Book of Mormon, which claims to be an account of ancient Jews of the time of Jesus or thereabouts who made it to America. My primary problem with this is that the way in which the Book of Mormon claims to be using Hebrew words is incorrect at best, gibberish at worst. It looks like the work of a very clever English-speaking person, whose primary knowledge of Hebrew words and roots comes from the King James Bible and a scattering of seventeenth- to nineteenth century Christian commentaries on said KJV.

Secondarily, I find the narratives ring hollow, both in the sense of not sounding to my ear like legitimately translated Hebrew narrative of the period in question, and also in the sense of the content of the narratives seeming improbable and unlikely to me.

The further theology developed out of the Book of Mormon, I disagree with many things, at least insofar as I have been able to comprehend them accurately. Their particular "solution" to the question of the trinity, though I have been told by Mormons is actually quite monotheistic, strikes me actually as essentially a kind of modified henotheism. I think Mormon cosmology is rather ludicrous, and at least in parts quite likely to be disillusioned by the eventual development of interstellar space travel. I also have various objections to theological postulations part of their cosmology such as the eternality of matter and the rejection of creation ex nihilo, although those are probably of lesser import than the more general objections to the whole.

I find the idea of baptism of the dead both theologically troubling and, as practiced, offensive to non-Mormons.

I tend to distrust institutional religious hierarchies where the chief hierarchs claim prophetic powers. I see no reason to exempt the leadership of the Mormon churches from this feeling. Especially given the historical propensity of Mormons to exfiltrate concepts from their church laws or theological doctrines into political governance; whereas I am a firm believer in the separation of religion and state in the US.

In the end, it is my belief that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon as an original, pseudepigraphic work, and did so because he was interested in becoming a leader, had delusions of grandeur and a messiah complex, and because he was interested in having polygamous relationships. I think the theology and cosmology that emerged and descended from what he wrote and taught is flawed at best, quite problematic at worst. But like almost all religious system, its flaws do not preclude good people using it as a framework to make their lives meaningful and to give personal structure to their positive acts; perhaps even to achieve successful and effective personal relationships with God.

What is LDS?

And is it okay to post here?

What is LDS?

And is it okay to post here?

Smart_Guy said:

What is LDS?

And is it okay to post here?

Click to expand...

Hi Smart Guy.....
LDS? = Latter Day Saints. I think that it is a short abbreviation for:-
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Young men used to canvass around this area (in pairs) to introduce their faith. They were always immaculately dressed, polite, courteous, and patient. I would see them out in all weathers, endlessly carrying out their missionary work. They lived in a small community in a house in Canterbury, and I think that they would undertake this missionary work for a year..... it must have been a part of their life-training.

I was always impressed with and by them. If the weather was really bad they all knew that they could get warm in my place.

oldbadger said:

Hi Smart Guy.....
LDS? = Latter Day Saints. I think that it is a short abbreviation for:-
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Young men used to canvass around this area (in pairs) to introduce their faith. They were always immaculately dressed, polite, courteous, and patient. I would see them out in all weathers, endlessly carrying out their missionary work. They lived in a small community in a house in Canterbury, and I think that they would undertake this missionary work for a year..... it must have been a part of their life-training.

I was always impressed with and by them. If the weather was really bad they all knew that they could get warm in my place.

Click to expand...

Oh, okay. Thank you kindly

According to the description, I'd think highly of them.

I personally respect any beliefs and their followers, but with the above, I'd respect them even more.

Smart_Guy said:

Oh, okay. Thank you kindly

According to the description, I'd think highly of them.

I personally respect any beliefs and their followers, but with the above, I'd respect them even more.

Click to expand...

There are probably several things most people don't know about Mormon missionaries. To begin with, they are not required by the Church to serve a mission, but they are strongly encouraged to do so. Secondly, they are not all young men. There are also young women and retired couples. Thirdly, they do not have any choice as to where in the world they will be sent. A Mormon from Idaho may be sent to Mongolia, one from Germany may be sent to Peru, one from Australia may be sent to India. Fourth, they are not serving a mission merely to preach the gospel and get converts to Mormonism, but to do service projects for the people they encounter (from shoveling snow from their sidewalks to helping stain a deck or fence). Fifth, they must pay their own way or have it paid by their friends and families. Sixth, during the period of time they are serving, they may not date. They may only call home twice a year (on Christmas and Mother's Day). Seventh, they are never to get into arguments with people over religion. If someone wants to argue, they're supposed to just excuse themselves and move on.

Katzpur said:

There are probably several things most people don't know about Mormon missionaries. To begin with, they are not required by the Church to serve a mission, but they are strongly encouraged to do so. Secondly, they are not all young men. There are also young women and retired couples. Thirdly, they do not have any choice as to where in the world they will be sent. A Mormon from Idaho may be sent to Mongolia, one from Germany may be sent to Peru, one from Australia may be sent to India. Fourth, they are not serving a mission merely to preach the gospel and get converts to Mormonism, but to do service projects for the people they encounter (from shoveling snow from their sidewalks to helping stain a deck or fence). Fifth, they must pay their own way or have it paid by their friends and families. Sixth, during the period of time they are serving, they may not date. They may only call home twice a year (on Christmas and Mother's Day). Seventh, they are never to get into arguments with people over religion. If someone wants to argue, they're supposed to just excuse themselves and move on.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the info, ma'am

Smart_Guy said:

Thank you for the info, ma'am

Click to expand...

You're very welcome!

My 'Be Honest' thoughts..

Where did the Book of Mormon come from, I wonder.

Could Joseph Smith's account of how it came to be, be true? Seems very unlikely all considered to me.

Could Joseph Smith have written it from his mind using his limited education and knowledge as an early 1800's young man? Possibly, but try writing something like that yourself...not your average Joe...

Could he have had help from another person? Seems reasonable. Could he have had help/revelation from beings above the physical realm? Possible and these beings are not God or infallible....

Things that make me go hmmm......