McBell
Resident Sourpuss
I have rendered my opinion on your take twice.
Your ignorance of the Forer Effect can only be corrected by you.
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Did the Bible predict nuclear warheads….. in detail???
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Your ignorance of the Forer Effect can only be corrected by you.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Levite
Higher and Higher
First of all, what I said was a synthesis of many opinions, not only Rashi's opinions. I don't follow Rashi as a knee-jerk reaction, but I take him seriously, especially when many other commentators and earlier Rabbinic sources agree with what he says. If it makes you feel better, there are those who say that the scroll is not a reference to Torah, but is the scroll upon which God's curse is written-- it was common in the ancient world for curses, spells, and magical incantations to be written on scrolls. In this opinion, the size of the scroll would be an image reflecting the enormity of God's power to curse.
Second of all, an ephah basket was commonly used in balance scales. Feel free to check Steinsaltz's commentary to Bava Metzia, where he notes this.
Third of all, as to the woman:
ואמר מה־היא ויאמר זאת האיפה היוצאת ויאמר זאת עינם בכל־הארץ׃
והנה ככר עפרת נשאת וזאת אשה אחת יושבת בתוך האיפה׃
ויאמר זאת הרשעה וישלך אתה אל־תוך האיפה וישלך את־אבן העפרת אל־פיה׃
6. And I said, "What is this?" And he said "This is an ephah [basket] coming forth," and he said, "This is the hidden [sins] of all the land." 7. The lead seal was lifted [off the basket] and a single woman sat within the ephah [basket]. 8. And he said, "This is Wickedness." And he set her [further] down into the ephah [basket] and set the lead seal back over the opening.
This could really not be more straightforward, unless you wanted the text to use the word "personification."
The lead seals something into the basket, something which the angel does not wish to otherwise come out of the basket-- just like a lead seal was commonly used to seal up caskets of treasure or secret things or whatnot. But if you like, some commentators note that official seals of princes and kings were sometimes cast in lead, and thus this basket lid may be an image suggesting the seal of God's kingship.
The curse of God is described as annihilating the entire households of thieves and oathbreakers or false witnesses. It is hardly an uncommon theme in Tanach that God punishes those who break the commandments, or break particularly critical commandments.
Do you honestly think that these relatively simple interpretations, which stick close to consistent themes and images in Tanach, and are deeply relevant to the context of the prophet's era of composition, are more unlikely than the supposition that a prophet 2500 years ago, chiefly concerned with the situation facing his people as they returned from exile, randomly had a vision of a nuclear missile-- and not a nuclear missile from the majority of the 20th century, nor one from our own future, but a nuclear missle specific to the turn of the 21st century? That really makes more sense to you?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
These are not simple interpretations at all. A magic scroll, an evil women shoved into a basket with a lead lid does not make any sense. You can't say in one breath that the basket means "weighing things out" and then in the next breath say you can stuff an evil woman inside of it!! Why does the women (wickedness)need to be thrust into an analogy of "weighing things out"?? Also, you are completely dismissing what the text says about this object. It says it will destroy houses literally. How do we know it is literal?? Because the prophet defines how it will destroy those houses by saying "even the stones and the wood". Why give physical details to the destruction of this curse if its all one big spiritual analogy??
Lets consider the next verse:
9Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. Zech 5:9
Why are there two women now?? I thought the woman was a simple analogy of wickedness! Why must we have two analogies of wickedness now? And why do they have "wind in their wings" and the "wings of a stork"? And why is the basket (a symbol of weighing things out) being lifted up between the heaven and the earth? Does lifting an "analogy" up into the air make more sense?
Lets consider the next verse:
9Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. Zech 5:9
Why are there two women now?? I thought the woman was a simple analogy of wickedness! Why must we have two analogies of wickedness now? And why do they have "wind in their wings" and the "wings of a stork"? And why is the basket (a symbol of weighing things out) being lifted up between the heaven and the earth? Does lifting an "analogy" up into the air make more sense?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Levite
Higher and Higher
Are you trolling, or being deliberately obtuse for some reason? Or was this whole thing a joke from the start?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I am putting forward a very reasonable interpretation of a text which has never been understood. Regardless of how crazy this theory sounds, it has much more logic than a flying magic scroll analogy of evil women being shoved into flying baskets.
I was hoping to hear a logical counter argument which would challenge the text. But people are too busy regurgitating Rashi's commentary because people can't think for themselves.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Dude, your comprehension problems are getting old.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah (measure) that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance (The measure of their worth)(wickedness) through all the earth.
Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that is sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth (opening) thereof.
Their MEASURE is WICKEDNESS - cast into the ephah (of measurement) and sealed with lead.
Zec 5:9 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. Zech 5:9
"Women" in our brains means humans, - it should have been translated "females" = angels.
And Zec 5:10 and 11, - tell us why they lift it up.
To cast it down upon it's own wicked foundations in Babylon - destroying everything including the FOUNDATIONS - stones and wood. Go back and re-read my FULL text.
It is baffling that you can't understand these metaphors.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
BULL - The text is understood! Christians can't understand it!
BULL - your future missile is not more logical then the history it is actually talking about!
BULL - You have heard logical counter argument from several people!
BULL! - Rashi is not the only scholar saying such, and I looked at the Hebrew, and translated it!
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Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I guess this is cased closed. Flying magic scroll with baskets and women/angels in them destroying homes in ancient Babylon. Your right…its so simple.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Indeed - a Curse by YHVH - written on a Huge Scroll - causing the metaphorical collection of such wicked together - and tossing that weighty MEASURMENT of Wickedness - back unto its own Wicked FOUNDATIONS in Babylon, - destroying those FOUNDATIONS - metaphoric wood and stone.
Glad you finally concede to common sense translation.
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Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
At least I got you to stop using all those exclamation points. They hurt.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
So continuing on with my illogical interpretations which have clearly been refuted by brilliant Hebrew scholars who are much smarter than me….Lets take a look at Chapter 6:
1Now I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, four chariots were coming forth from between the two mountains; and the mountains were bronze mountains.
Hey..isn't bronze a man made alloy?? So these two mountains were man made possibly?
2With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, 3with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot strong dappled horses. 4Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5The angel replied to me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, 6with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country.7“When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth.” And He said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”
Or course these war horses are patrolling the North country and the South country. Hmmmm.
1Now I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, four chariots were coming forth from between the two mountains; and the mountains were bronze mountains.
Hey..isn't bronze a man made alloy?? So these two mountains were man made possibly?
2With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, 3with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot strong dappled horses. 4Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5The angel replied to me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, 6with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country.7“When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth.” And He said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”
Or course these war horses are patrolling the North country and the South country. Hmmmm.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Wait, are you saying that the missile idea is the best you can come up with when thinking for yourself?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Good grief! I went into part of 6. Here is what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible says --
"Some by the four chariots understand the four monarchies; and then they read (Zec_6:5), These are the four winds of the heavens, and suppose that therein reference is had to Dan_7:2, where Daniel saw, in vision, the four winds of the heavens striving upon the great sea, representing the four monarchies. The Babylonian monarchy, they think, is here represented by the red horses, which are not afterwards mentioned, because that monarchy was now extinct. The second chariot with the black horses is the Persian monarchy, which went forth northward against the Babylonians, and quieted God's Spirit in the north country, by executing his judgments on Babylon and freeing the Jews from their captivity. The white, the Grecians, go forth after them in the north, for they overthrow the Persians. The grizzled, the Romans, who conquered the Grecian empire, are said to go forth towards the south country, because Egypt, which lay southward, was the last branch of the Grecian empire that was subdued by the Romans. The bay horses had been with the grizzled, but afterwards went forth by themselves; and by these they understand the Goths and Vandals, who with their victorious arms walked to and fro through the earth, or the Seleucidae and Lagidae, the two branches of the Grecian empire. Thus Grotius and others."
The number "four" is specified not merely in reference to the four quarters of the horizon (implying universal judgments), but in allusion to the four world kingdoms of Daniel.
As you can see we are still on the Hebrew History - and aftermath - as I have already said. And I have already given the meaning beyond these horses and chariots.
As to the "Brass mountains" -
"from between two mountains — the valley of Jehoshaphat, between Moriah and Mount Olivet [Moore]; or the valley between Zion and Moriah, where the Lord is (Zec_2:10), and whence He sends forth His ministers of judgment on the heathen [Maurer]...
of brass — the metal among the ancients representing hard solidity; so the immovable and resistless firmness of God’s people" - JFB Commentary
Clark says - "Mountains of brass - The strong barriers of God’s purposes, which restrained those powers within the times and limits appointed by Jehovah."
So - same subject - no missiles.
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mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Linkdetailssciencewithreligiontoo narrow
Because science is not involved in the details of the science
All of the claims that the religion in which the Humanities thought it would not be able to prove it
Because religion says that science lies in our minds
So weknowit is Godof our minds, too
And as for the old testament prophecy is a prophecy about the main lines but does not speak in detail
Known about Isaiah that a symbolic journey speaks about the stages of life of the Hebrews or Jews
And Isaiah is a saviour or Messiah
Ithink theprophecyof Isaiahabout Jesuswas the subject ofcontroversyto theJews
Thisis what I understandabout sciencein religion
I do not believethat religionin which allscience
If you want to believe in the Bible because the flag I'll go to the prophecy of Daniel
He wrote when he was in captivity
And it describes an object came from heaven
It has brass legs and wings
And who wants to draw those words he paints modern aircraft
Would yousay thatthe Jewish religiontenbaainthe invention ofthe airplane
This is notthe mind
I respect the words of the Prophet Daniel as the photograph to the imagination and the dream of a future
But I don't believe that I know the plane knew the prophecy
Human ambition and made the plane
Thisis what I believe
Because science is not involved in the details of the science
All of the claims that the religion in which the Humanities thought it would not be able to prove it
Because religion says that science lies in our minds
So weknowit is Godof our minds, too
And as for the old testament prophecy is a prophecy about the main lines but does not speak in detail
Known about Isaiah that a symbolic journey speaks about the stages of life of the Hebrews or Jews
And Isaiah is a saviour or Messiah
Ithink theprophecyof Isaiahabout Jesuswas the subject ofcontroversyto theJews
Thisis what I understandabout sciencein religion
I do not believethat religionin which allscience
If you want to believe in the Bible because the flag I'll go to the prophecy of Daniel
He wrote when he was in captivity
And it describes an object came from heaven
It has brass legs and wings
And who wants to draw those words he paints modern aircraft
Would yousay thatthe Jewish religiontenbaainthe invention ofthe airplane
This is notthe mind
I respect the words of the Prophet Daniel as the photograph to the imagination and the dream of a future
But I don't believe that I know the plane knew the prophecy
Human ambition and made the plane
Thisis what I believe
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
From watch Hill, the ruins of Nineveh effects wonders how those historic city fell even did not remain only mounds of dirt and stones and some of the stones of the wall
There are archaeologists who say it fell by a nuclear disaster
Or near the disaster
Because all the hills of Earth is a circle
And the center of the circle-free easy it is spacious
Just asdotoday'sbombs
Bomb it turns whitish center hole or conveys the dust to the circle
Permission-
DidIsaythat manknewat thattimebombs
Permission of the possible disasters do not know the causes, but we are trying to find reasons in accordance with the capacity of our minds.
In each time be interpretation different from the previous time according to human development.
There are archaeologists who say it fell by a nuclear disaster
Or near the disaster
Because all the hills of Earth is a circle
And the center of the circle-free easy it is spacious
Just asdotoday'sbombs
Bomb it turns whitish center hole or conveys the dust to the circle
Permission-
DidIsaythat manknewat thattimebombs
Permission of the possible disasters do not know the causes, but we are trying to find reasons in accordance with the capacity of our minds.
In each time be interpretation different from the previous time according to human development.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Well I am glad to see a Judaism subscriber who agrees to the biblical concept of judgment. I had a poster claiming so vehemently that Jews denied judgment that even though it was not what I had known to be true it had me wondering a little.
Since you concentrated on who will make it through judgment instead of what the prophecy says let me comment on it. One of the greatest reasons why I grant Christianity with being a far more clear and expanded doctrinal teaching on salvation is that any works based model utterly fails. Even after I was born again I was trained so thoroughly by earthly thinking that I just could not understand why faith was the commodity that God requires. Humans only value what others do, we are a merit based system. It is hard to break from that ingrained thinking and come to understand that it not only is not the way God judges but can't be. I never could get settled with a faith based salvation model until I tried to examine a works based model and it utterly came apart. Faith may be a little hard to grasp but works just don't work.
Salvation is my favorite subject. I will not launch into a argument about it, however, unless you desire one. Do you want to debate the salvation model in Judaism versus Christianity?