What about "God is Spirit" don't you accept? Christians only (all variants)

Quiddity · Apr 3, 2006

Squirt said:
Of course it was a religion of prophets! Where do you get the idea that it wasn't?

No, what I said was: "Keep in mind Squirt that early Christianity was not a religion of a book or a prophet."

I was specifically attaching my statement to a particular time. I doubt you'll find any Christian that doesn't believe prophets was a means of God to get his message to His people. But I can see this may turn into a "who is a prophet and what is a prophet?" type of debate. And since this is what holds LDS together (Joseph Smith the prophet) I'm quite sure this is a topic of great interest to you guys. Perhaps another thread.

Squirt said:
Of course I'm being serious. The scriptures state "God is spirit." What does that mean He is? The Greek word, "pneuma," can be translated as "spirit," "breath," or "life." You apparently believe that, in this context, the correct translation is "spirit." So now, all I'm asking is "What is spirit?" You can joke about it all you want, but the question is legitimate.

Actually what you asked was: "What do you believe His spirit is made of?"
How else did you want me to take this question? :areyoucra
Read Post#56 to answer your question.

The Least in Christ
~Victor

Quiddity · Apr 3, 2006

Polaris said:
Victor, you seem to have contradictory ideas. I'm confused, so do you believe that God is now a physical being? If so has he limited his capabilities as God in your view?

You seem to believe that a physical being is inferior to a spirit-only one, is that a correct statement? If so, why would God - a spirit-only being - even bother to create us, his children, as physical beings? What is the point to all of this (creation, life, etc), especially considering the fact that we will be resurrected and will always be physical beings? Are we just forever confined to the "limitations" of physical beings?

If spirit-only is better, why didn't God create us as such?

Your confused, but felt comfortable saying I have contradictory views?...ooooooook
Read post#56 and we can go from there.

Polaris · Apr 3, 2006

Victor said:
Your confused, but felt comfortable saying I have contradictory views?...ooooooook
Read post#56 and we can go from there.

I said you seem to have contradictory ideas. And frankly I am confused about what you claim to believe. I read post #56 and it didn't clearly answer any of my questions so I'll restate them.

Is God a spirit-only being?
Is a spirit-only being superior to a physical being?
If so why did he create us as physical beings?
Further, what purpose does the resurrection serve?

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 3, 2006

Polaris said:
I said you seem to have contradictory ideas. And frankly I am confused about what you claim to believe. I read post #56 and it didn't clearly answer any of my questions so I'll restate them.

Is God a spirit-only being?
Is a spirit-only being superior to a physical being?
If so why did he create us as physical beings?
Further, what purpose does the resurrection serve?

How to explain. God is spirit. But not like a ghost in the attic. It's an energy. God is the space between all things.

God created the physical world for our benefit. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. Why, because somewhere along the way (I can't remember when) we asked God, what's it like to be you? Well, as a spirit, we didn't know what a rose smelled like, we had no nose, we didn't know what it was like to be held by someone you love, we had no arms. We did not know what it was like to know pain and suffering, because we had no body.

The purpose of the resurrection is to remind us that we do not cease to exist when our bodies dies.

Polaris · Apr 3, 2006

NetDoc said:
Who says we don't?

The scriptures. After Christ was resurrected he showed himself to his disciples and Luke 24:39 illustrates clearly what a resurrected being is like:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have."

Similarly it was recorded that at the time of Christs resurrection "the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" (Matthew 27:52).

It is absolutely unmistakable that the resurrection is the reuniting of one's body with their spirit.

Scuba Pete · Apr 3, 2006

Polaris said:
It is absolutely unmistakable that the resurrection is the reuniting of one's body with their spirit.

No, that would be an "Absolute Mistake".

So you completely throw out the scriptures that deal with the perishable vs. the imperishable? Interesting. Do you think that Jesus' composition might have changed as he rose in Acts 1? Did the saints who arose suffer death again? If so, then their bodies were not imperishable.

Squirt · Apr 4, 2006

NetDoc said:
No, that would be an "Absolute Mistake".

Honestly, I'm stunned. Are you saying that you don't believe in a physical resurrection? If that's the case, start a new thread, okay? It's too far off topic for us to discuss it here, but that makes no sense to me whatsoever! It would make an interesting topic for conversation.

So you completely throw out the scriptures that deal with the perishable vs. the imperishable? Interesting. Do you think that Jesus' composition might have changed as he rose in Acts 1? Did the saints who arose suffer death again? If so, then their bodies were not imperishable.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, so correct me if I am. But the fact that the spirit reunites with the body does not mean that the body continues to be mortal. Christ's new body was immortal. It was no longer subject to death or disease. That will also be the case for us. (But again, I think we're starting to head off in a different direction than the OP.)

Scuba Pete · Apr 4, 2006

It is my belief that for Christians: our souls have already been resurrected. This is indeed a mystery.

I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." NIV

It is a mistake to think you will keep this present body. I really don't want mine for all eternity!

Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. NIV

My spirit (my soul) is already enjoying it's new life. I have been rejoined with God.

This gets BACK to my original premise: we put way too much stock in the physical, and tend to ignore the spiritual. How many pray to get well? They should spend that energy praying for a CHANGE of heart. How many work out? How many do a spiritual workout?

I Timothy 4:8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. NIV

Jesus didn't come to bring a PHYSICAL Kingdom, but a SPIRITUAL one. Those who keep their minds focused on the physical aspects while ignoring the farmore important spiritual aspects of God have missed the boat!

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. NIV

This is not written in the future tense: this is NOW.

nutshell · Apr 4, 2006

NetDoc said:
It is my belief that for Christians: our souls have already been resurrected. This is indeed a mystery.

I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." NIV

It is a mistake to think you will keep this present body. I really don't want mine for all eternity!

You make the mistake of thinking your new body will be like the one you currently have. This is not true. Currently, your body grows old, gets sick, and will die. Your new body will be perfect. It will be immortal. It will be like God the Father's and the resurrected Christ's body.

NetDoc said:
Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

NetDoc said:
NIV

My spirit (my soul) is already enjoying it's new life. I have been rejoined with God.

This gets BACK to my original premise: we put way too much stock in the physical, and tend to ignore the spiritual. How many pray to get well? They should spend that energy praying for a CHANGE of heart. How many work out? How many do a spiritual workout?

That's right. When we accept Christ we are spiritually born again. It is the spiritual that should be the focus and we should be praying for a change of heart. The truth is, the physical has already been taken care of through Christ's resurrection. We don't have to worry about it. He gave us a free pass to concentrate on the spiritual, overcoming the physical.

NetDoc said:
I Timothy 4:8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

NetDoc said:
NIV

Jesus didn't come to bring a PHYSICAL Kingdom, but a SPIRITUAL one. Those who keep their minds focused on the physical aspects while ignoring the farmore important spiritual aspects of God have missed the boat!

I don't disagree at all, but focusing on the spiritual in no way lessens the importance of the resurrection.

NetDoc said:
Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."

NetDoc said:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. NIV

This is not written in the future tense: this is NOW.

Those are nice verses.

joeboonda · Apr 4, 2006

I bleieve that as Jesus rose physically from the dead, we too, will rise from the dead and our bodies, be they molecules scattered abroad, will be transformed, into better, glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies. But, I still believe God the Father is Spirit, and God the Son now has a ressurrected body, the first-fruits.

Squirt · Apr 4, 2006

NetDoc said:
It is my belief that for Christians: our souls have already been resurrected. This is indeed a mystery.

I'm sorry, but you are defining the word "resurrection" to mean something entirely different from what it really means. The word means "a rising from the dead, or a coming back to life, the state of having risen from the dead; in Christian theology, (a) the rising of Jesus from the dead after His death and burial, (b) the rising of all the dead at the Last Judgment." You've invented a completely new theology that is foreign to anything any Christian doctrine I've ever heard. If your soul has been resurrected already, then it must have died at some point. If your soul has been rejoined with God, it obviously is no longer inhabiting your physical body. What do you expect to happen to your soul when your body dies? What do you expect to happen at the Last Judgment?

It is a mistake to think you will keep this present body. I really don't want mine for all eternity!

Well whose body did Jesus Christ's spirit return in on Easter morning? He appeared to His Apostles in bodily form. And the body His spirit left when He died was absent from the tomb. Are you saying His spirit entered someone else's body? Nobody's saying that our new bodies will be identical to our old ones. They will be perfected and made immortal, but they will still exist.

This gets BACK to my original premise: we put way too much stock in the physical, and tend to ignore the spiritual. How many pray to get well? They should spend that energy praying for a CHANGE of heart. How many work out? How many do a spiritual workout?

God's creation of our physical world and our physical bodies are far more incredible and glorious than you give them credit for being. You seem to have lost sight of that.

Jesus didn't come to bring a PHYSICAL Kingdom, but a SPIRITUAL one. Those who keep their minds focused on the physical aspects while ignoring the farmore important spiritual aspects of God have missed the boat!

Wow! I think you're the one who has missed the boat! The physical and the spiritual are not at odds with one another. They complement each other and fulfill each other's existence.

Squirt · Apr 4, 2006

joeboonda said:
I bleieve that as Jesus rose physically from the dead, we too, will rise from the dead and our bodies, be they molecules scattered abroad, will be transformed, into better, glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies. But, I still believe God the Father is Spirit, and God the Son now has a ressurrected body, the first-fruits.

If the Son has a resurrected body and the Father does not, how are they part of a single essence? A corporeal essence is not an incorporeal essence. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

joeboonda · Apr 4, 2006

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He became flesh, he was not flesh before he became flesh. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus is God the son who became flesh. The Father is God the Spirit. God is omniscient, omni-present, and manifests himself in many ways. That is what my Bible teaches and all the theologians I know teach as well, and what I believe.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 4, 2006

joeboonda said:
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He became flesh, he was not flesh before he became flesh. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus is God the son who became flesh. The Father is God the Spirit. God is omniscient, omni-present, and manifests himself in many ways. That is what my Bible teaches and all the theologians I know teach as well, and what I believe.

The word became flesh, when Adam was spoken into being. And Jesus said that he was around before Abraham.

Squirt · Apr 4, 2006

joeboonda said:
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He became flesh, he was not flesh before he became flesh. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus is God the son who became flesh. The Father is God the Spirit. God is omniscient, omni-present, and manifests himself in many ways. That is what my Bible teaches and all the theologians I know teach as well, and what I believe.

Joeboonda,

Thank you for your comments, but...

You did not answer my question. You previously said, "God the Father is Spirit, and God the Son now has a ressurrected body." If the Father is spirit and the Son is not, how can they be the same essense? One has a spirit essence. The other has a physical essence. That's all I'd like to know.

Oh, and by the way, I know that "the Son was not flesh before he became flesh." I think that goes without saying.

Squirt · Apr 4, 2006

EnhancedSpirit said:
The word became flesh, when Adam was spoken into being.

Are you saying that the Word was not Jesus Christ after all, but was Adam? Or are you saying something else? How did Adam being placed on this earth make the Word become flesh?

And Jesus said that he was around before Abraham.

We can agree on that.

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 5, 2006

Squirt said:
Are you saying that the Word was not Jesus Christ after all, but was Adam? Or are you saying something else? How did Adam being placed on this earth make the Word become flesh?

Well, first I believe in reincarnation. I believe each of us have past lives. I believe we have accumulated Karma over these lifetimes. There is more but it goes off topic for this thread. Adam was God's first son, he wasn't begotton, but he was God's first son, and he was breathed into existance.

Well, Adam created some Karma for himself, and came back a few times, Adam, Melchizedek, and Jesus (maybe David)and eventually evolved spiritually enough to become the Christ, by then he had learned all his lessons, and knew what he had to do to balance his Karma, and join back with the FATHER. Anyway, there is a lot of stuff written about the connections between them. Study about Melchizedek in your bible it's pretty amazing, he only had one parent as well. And here are some links.

Jesus a Reincarnation of Adam
The Reincarnation of Jesus
Reincarnation in Judaism
Biblical Evidence of Reincarnation

1 Cor.15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Scuba Pete · Apr 5, 2006

Squirt said:
I'm sorry, but you are defining the word "resurrection" to mean something entirely different from what it really means. The word means "a rising from the dead, or a coming back to life, the state of having risen from the dead; in Christian theology, (a) the rising of Jesus from the dead after His death and burial, (b) the rising of all the dead at the Last Judgment." You've invented a completely new theology that is foreign to anything any Christian doctrine I've ever heard. If your soul has been resurrected already, then it must have died at some point. If your soul has been rejoined with God, it obviously is no longer inhabiting your physical body. What do you expect to happen to your soul when your body dies? What do you expect to happen at the Last Judgment?

No, it's New Testament teaching that you just missed:

I Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. NIV

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. NIV

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. NIV

Romans 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. NIV

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." NIV

You can stay stuck with focusing on the physical, but I am happy to be born of the Spirit. I was born again when I was baptised and I NOW have a relationship with God. Something that was impossible before I died to sin and was resurrected to a new life.

Quiddity · Apr 5, 2006

NetDoc rocks....:jam:

Squirt · Apr 5, 2006

NetDoc said:
You can stay stuck with focusing on the physical, but I am happy to be born of the Spirit. I was born again when I was baptised and I NOW have a relationship with God. Something that was impossible before I died to sin and was resurrected to a new life.

Are you implying that I have not been born of the spirit, just because I look forward to the resurrection of my physical body? Is it possible, in your opinion, for a person to have a relationship with God here and now and still be able to anticipate spending eternity in Heaven with Him? It just sounds as if you believe these things to be mutually exclusive, and I can't figure out why. Just so that you know...

(1) I, too, have been born again.
(2) I, too, have a relationship with God.

But I also look forward to the day when I will be welcomed into His presence, when I will see His face and feel His arms around me. The physical is beautiful, Net Doc, just like the spiritual. Your focus is simply a bit narrower than mind.

Incidentally, the scriptures you quoted were nice, but they did not answer my two questions. I'll repeat them:

What do you expect to happen to your soul when your body dies?
What do you expect to happen at the Last Judgment?

What about "God is Spirit" don't you accept? Christians only (all variants)

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