Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

URAVIP2ME · Nov 8, 2014

Shadow Wolf said:
If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. This one pretty much puts men in a no-fault predicament. Especially teenaged boys whose bodies are pumped full of testosterone. Though shalt not covet thy neighbors goods, which is pretty much a flaw in human programming that at some point in time we are all going to do it. And of course there are a number of genetic, mental, and motor disorders that will have people breaking Biblical law, though through no fault of their own. Plus, we inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve, which pretty much puts us all at a by default position of "not our fault." To punish us by giving us a sinful nature contradicts the son not paying for the sins of the father (Ezekiel 18:20/Duet. 24:16), although we all apparently do, by default, since the punishments of sin (death and other sufferings) were passed from parent to child.

Unlike Satan and Adam, we can sin by mistake, by accident, that is why Jesus' ransom can cover us "IF" we repent. The choice is: repent or perish [ be destroyed ] 2nd Peter 3v 9.

It is the willful practice of sin which can lead to no further forgiveness- Heb. 10 v 26

URAVIP2ME · Nov 8, 2014

Monk Of Reason said:
If I was following scripture then I wouldn't be debating you would I?

What is stopping you from following Scripture [ what the Bible really teaches ] ?

Etritonakin · Nov 8, 2014

gnostic said:
Except that earlier surviving texts of Isaiah, like the Greek Septuagint or the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls don't use the name "Lucifer".

The name - "Lucifer" - doesn't appear till the 4th century CE, when St Jerome was translating Hebrew Scriptures into Latin - the vulgate bible.

Applying lucifer to satan, when "lucifer" was never really originally used in Isaiah 14, is interpolation and not to mention, absolutely absurd.

Lastly, the whole of Isaiah 14, was supposed to be a prophecy to the king of Babylonia (Isaiah 14:3-4), and the morning star (or "son of morning") and other stars, are just symbols for the Babylonian king and his empire, would eventually fall. And 14:16 does indicate that person is a man, not a fallen angel:

Don't just read one verse, read the whole damn chapter. The context for the son of morning being a man is all there, in Isaiah 14, not that of satan or devil.

Lucifer and the following have similar meaning. I don't think the name change is extremely important.
H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star:

When reading the whole chapter (actually, reading all books is necessary), we should be able to see that the chapter does not only refer to one character. However, those characters are related.
(It actually doesn't even refer to one period of time -as "Babylon" in prophecy does not refer only to the ancient kingdom with that name.)

Isa 14:4 -king of Babylon
Isa 14:12 -hêylêl
Isa 14:25 -the Assyrian

Prophecies often address the relationship between earthly powers/rulers and the spiritual power which influences them.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

It is also true that many names are often given to a single character in the bible. In fact, the beast in Rev 13:4 is the same as the Assyrian in Isaiah 14:25.

The beast/Assyrian is also called a king of fierce countenance and (last) king of the north (as king of the north actually refers to a succession of rulers) in Daniel.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power:

It should be no surprise that Old Testament prophecies often concern end-time events.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

This king of fierce countenance is also called the PRINCE of Tyrus in Ezekiel -and Satan, who gives power to the beast -is called the KING of Tyrus (which should be clear, as no human king of Tyrus was present in Eden).
(The Assyrians once ruled Tyrus).
They are the same characters described in Isaiah 14!

Prophecy also sometimes begins describing an ancient situation and characters specific to that time -then parallels them with later events -or even events yet future from our perspective.

Back to Isaiah 14 - Babylon and Assyria anciently had a sort of love-hate relationship.
The same is true for the end times. The beast -the Assyrian -will actually rule over "Babylon" -but will not have "honour of the kingdom" (He will reign -but not popularly).
"Babylon" sometimes refers to the last kingdom described by the statue in King Nebuchadnezzar's dream (in Daniel). His Babylon was the head of gold of the statue in that dream -and the kingdom of the beast are the feet and toes of iron and clay.

The Assyrian is the king of "Babylon" in Isaiah 14 -and hêylêl -translated as Lucifer -does refer to Satan who gives him power -and the chapter does speak of events in the end times, even though the kingdoms of Assyria and Babylon no longer exist by name.

The beast -the Assyrian -will rule with ten kings over their peoples who are not of the same descent as he.
(Those peoples are referred to also by the general term "Chaldean" in prophecy [Nebuchadnezzar was a Chaldean -and descendents of the Chaldeans still inhabit Europe].
The ruling/warring class of the Assyrians left their homeland after the fall of the empire -traveled to Haran -and continued NW to Europe -then known as the Chatti -inhabiting what is now Germany -where they eventually referred to themselves as Aryan. This is described in Ezekiel 17 and 31)

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

We can also know that Isaiah 14 is yet future -as the Assyrian has yet to be broken in God's land.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

...and that is described here......

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, .........................
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Nada · Nov 8, 2014

URAVIP2ME said:
Why would God stop his gift of free will? To stop or take away the gift of free will would then be No gift at all.

Remember Satan never challenged God's power or strength.
Satan never said God was Not all powerful.
What Satan blamed or challenged was God's rightful rulership over mankind.
Satan wanted man to go against God's law.
By Adam breaking God's law then Adam was taking the law out of God's hands and placing the law into man's hands. Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule.

If Satan and Adam would have been stopped from rebelling then Satan could have charged God with being a Bully, and that would have not settled the issue of Sovereignty [ whose rulership is best ].

The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.

There is a difference from being forced to obey and submitting oneself.
Obedience can be forced whereas submitting can be of voluntary heart and mind.
Jesus submitted [ yielded ] himself to his God and Father's Sovereignty and so can we by our free-will choice.

Yes Jehovahs universal sovereignty was challenged by Satan.You are correct.Jehovah God did not stop and destroy satan ,Adam and Eve for the simple fact that it would prove nothing.The question would have never been answered.There was also an audience.The angels were all watching.So we can all see today from what man has done in the last 6,000 years that man cannot rule himself or others without God.

Nada · Nov 8, 2014

Etritonakin said:
Lucifer and the following have similar meaning. I don't think the name change is extremely important.
H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star:

When reading the whole chapter (actually, reading all books is necessary), we should be able to see that the chapter does not only refer to one character. However, those characters are related.
(It actually doesn't even refer to one period of time -as "Babylon" in prophecy does not refer only to the ancient kingdom with that name.)

Isa 14:4 -king of Babylon
Isa 14:12 -hêylêl
Isa 14:25 -the Assyrian

Prophecies often address the relationship between earthly powers/rulers and the spiritual power which influences them.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

It is also true that many names are often given to a single character in the bible. In fact, the beast in Rev 13:4 is the same as the Assyrian in Isaiah 14:25.

The beast/Assyrian is also called a king of fierce countenance and (last) king of the north (as king of the north actually refers to a succession of rulers) in Daniel.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power:

It should be no surprise that Old Testament prophecies often concern end-time events.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

This king of fierce countenance is also called the PRINCE of Tyrus in Ezekiel -and Satan, who gives power to the beast -is called the KING of Tyrus (which should be clear, as no human king of Tyrus was present in Eden).
(The Assyrians once ruled Tyrus).
They are the same characters described in Isaiah 14!

Prophecy also sometimes begins describing an ancient situation and characters specific to that time -then parallels them with later events -or even events yet future from our perspective.

Back to Isaiah 14 - Babylon and Assyria anciently had a sort of love-hate relationship.
The same is true for the end times. The beast -the Assyrian -will actually rule over "Babylon" -but will not have "honour of the kingdom" (He will reign -but not popularly).
"Babylon" sometimes refers to the last kingdom described by the statue in King Nebuchadnezzar's dream (in Daniel). His Babylon was the head of gold of the statue in that dream -and the kingdom of the beast are the feet and toes of iron and clay.

The Assyrian is the king of "Babylon" in Isaiah 14 -and hêylêl -translated as Lucifer -does refer to Satan who gives him power -and the chapter does speak of events in the end times, even though the kingdoms of Assyria and Babylon no longer exist by name.

The beast -the Assyrian -will rule with ten kings over their peoples who are not of the same descent as he.
(Those peoples are referred to also by the general term "Chaldean" in prophecy [Nebuchadnezzar was a Chaldean -and descendents of the Chaldeans still inhabit Europe].
The ruling/warring class of the Assyrians left their homeland after the fall of the empire -traveled to Haran -and continued NW to Europe -then known as the Chatti -inhabiting what is now Germany -where they eventually referred to themselves as Aryan. This is described in Ezekiel 17 and 31)

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

We can also know that Isaiah 14 is yet future -as the Assyrian has yet to be broken in God's land.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

...and that is described here......

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, .........................
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Many think that Lucifer is satan but this is incorrect.Lucifer refers to the Babylonian Dynasty led by King Nebuchadnezzar.

Monk Of Reason · Nov 8, 2014

URAVIP2ME said:
What is stopping you from following Scripture [ what the Bible really teaches ] ?

Why don't you follow the Quran or the Vedas?

Bick · Nov 10, 2014

upperroom said:
We know who caused Adam and Eve rebelled....the question about Who caused Satan to rebel is rather ignored or silent.
Yet there is much hype about the activity of Satan. It is true all power is in God, there is no power with out God.

The idea of Satan rebelling and being cast down, and now taking the position as an opposition against God is absurd. The question arises, can anyone or anything stand before the almighty.

It is my theory that the Satan and his angels are all part of Gods complete design, plan and purpose. Satan is playing his role in Gods plan and purpose.

The problem God has, is not with the role of Satan but the disobedient role of mankind.

Bick · Nov 10, 2014

Bible Student said:
Satan the devil rebelled because he wanted to be worshipped.

Lucifer is not satan.That is a huge misconception.All of these people who think they are worshipping satan are actually calling him by a name that does not belong to him to begin with.Lucifer is actually a title.It means light bearer in Latin.It comes from the original word in Hebrew "Hel el" meaning shining one.It refers to the Babylonian Dynasty led by King Nebuchadnezzar.This can be confirmed by reading Isaiah ch. 14,in it's entirety.

If one goes to Isaiah 14:12 it speaks of Lucifer. 12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

If you go to 14:16 it calls him a man.We all know that Satan is no man.He is a spirit form.Hence,Lucifer cannot be satan the devil. 16Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

for more confirmation you can go to 14:15 and see how it speaks of Lucifer going to the realm of the dead,which is the grave.Satan the devil as we all know is not reserved for the grave.He is reserved for the eternal lake of fire. 15But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,to the depths of the pit.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So we can clearly see that Lucifer is not satan the devil.

By the way satan and devil is not his name either.Satan means adversary.Devil means liar and slanderer.Theses are also titles.

Nada · Nov 10, 2014

I see that you sent two comments to me but I cannot see the actual comments.

DrTCH · Nov 11, 2014

upperroom said:
We know who caused Adam and Eve rebelled....the question about Who caused Satan to rebel is rather ignored or silent.
Yet there is much hype about the activity of Satan. It is true all power is in God, there is no power with out God.

The idea of Satan rebelling and being cast down, and now taking the position as an opposition against God is absurd. The question arises, can anyone or anything stand before the almighty.

It is my theory that the Satan and his angels are all part of Gods complete design, plan and purpose. Satan is playing his role in Gods plan and purpose.

The problem God has, is not with the role of Satan but the disobedient role of mankind.

Hmmm, this is--in reality--a moot point, as the stories in the OT are--much as those in the Bhagavadgita and Vedas (of the Hindus)--are allegory. They may suggest certain truths (or reflect common human experiences), but are what might be called "descriptive" but not determinative (or "normative"). The are "tall-tales." Not necessarily w/o value, but not LITERALLY true. They also deal with what Dr. Jung called "archetypes."

Bick · Nov 11, 2014

I agree with your interpretation of the passage in Isaiah 14, that it is a proverb against the king of Babylon, who in his heart would be like the Most High.
If "Satan", "the Devil" are only titles, then, does he have a name? Actually, I see his name is Satan, which means, as you pointed out, "adversary". "Devil" means "accuser."
In Rev.12:7-9 we read where the dragon (Satan) and his angels are cast down to the earth. He is identified as "the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan..."

I can't see that Satan was created perfect and then fell due to pride, because we are told "he was a murderer from the beginning, and he is a liar and the father of lies..", John 8:44, NIV.
And we read in 1 John 3:8, "He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

To me "from the beginning" is from his being created.

we-live-now · Nov 12, 2014

upperroom said:
We know who caused Adam and Eve rebelled....the question about Who caused Satan to rebel is rather ignored or silent.
Yet there is much hype about the activity of Satan. It is true all power is in God, there is no power with out God.

The idea of Satan rebelling and being cast down, and now taking the position as an opposition against God is absurd. The question arises, can anyone or anything stand before the almighty.

It is my theory that the Satan and his angels are all part of Gods complete design, plan and purpose. Satan is playing his role in Gods plan and purpose.

The problem God has, is not with the role of Satan but the disobedient role of mankind.

Great topic and thoughts. Yes, my heart agrees with you totally. Satan is simply an adversarial spirit of God that is an "adversary" or prosecuting attorney to natural man because his sole purpose is to enforce God's PERFECT and HOLY law. This always "accuses" man in his natural mind and administers death to natural man because only God himself can perfectly uphold the law the way it demands. All else is death. This is why no natural man can't stand in the presence of God and live. Satan is simply God's "minister of death" so that we can "die" and be born again and LIVE as eternal spirits with him. He holds the "power of death". Who gave it to him? God the father did. See Job and study the scriptures carefully. The law is the strength of sin and the sin is the power of death. All (natural) men must die before they can see God. It is actually God himself who is "killing" them. This is the way of God. "That which you sow does not come to live unless it dies".

Here is another awesome thing to ponder. Study the original word used in Genesis 1:21 for "sea monster(s)". I believe this is the same entity or spiritual being that appears in the lower, soul realm in Genesis 3 that we call "the serpent". He is the only one that is a "beast of the field" from Genesis 2, but ALSO a "cattle" from Genesis 1. Genesis 1 is all high-level spiritual beings and Genesis 2 is the lower soul realm creation. I believe this is a part of God the father himself. God must put natural man under law so he knows 1) he has no righteousness of his own and 2) God wants him to be with himself. Look at who the ONLY ones who know and call God by the name of "God" in Genesis 3. All other references are to the "Lord God". The Serpent and "the woman" are very high level spiritual beings who know the TRUE God of Genesis 1.

God bless.

we-live-now

URAVIP2ME · Nov 13, 2014

we-live-now said:
Great topic and thoughts. Yes, my heart agrees with you totally. Satan is simply an adversarial spirit of God that is an "adversary" or prosecuting attorney to natural man because his sole purpose is to enforce God's PERFECT and HOLY law. This always "accuses" man in his natural mind and administers death to natural man because only God himself can perfectly uphold the law the way it demands. All else is death. This is why no natural man can't stand in the presence of God and live. Satan is simply God's "minister of death" so that we can "die" and be born again and LIVE as eternal spirits with him. He holds the "power of death". Who gave it to him? God the father did. See Job and study the scriptures carefully. The law is the strength of sin and the sin is the power of death. All (natural) men must die before they can see God. It is actually God himself who is "killing" them. This is the way of God. "That which you sow does not come to live unless it dies".

Here is another awesome thing to ponder. Study the original word used in Genesis 1:21 for "sea monster(s)". I believe this is the same entity or spiritual being that appears in the lower, soul realm in Genesis 3 that we call "the serpent". He is the only one that is a "beast of the field" from Genesis 2, but ALSO a "cattle" from Genesis 1. Genesis 1 is all high-level spiritual beings and Genesis 2 is the lower soul realm creation. I believe this is a part of God the father himself. God must put natural man under law so he knows 1) he has no righteousness of his own and 2) God wants him to be with himself. Look at who the ONLY ones who know and call God by the name of "God" in Genesis 3. All other references are to the "Lord God". The Serpent and "the woman" are very high level spiritual beings who know the TRUE God of Genesis 1.

God bless.

we-live-now

The serpent of Genesis chapter 3 is Not one of the snakes of earthly creation, but the ' serpent ' of Revelation 12 v 9 meaning Satan the Devil.

The ' woman ' of Genesis 3 v 15 is a symbolic woman see Revelation chapter 12

Nada · Nov 13, 2014

Bick said:
I agree with your interpretation of the passage in Isaiah 14, that it is a proverb against the king of Babylon, who in his heart would be like the Most High.
If "Satan", "the Devil" are only titles, then, does he have a name? Actually, I see his name is Satan, which means, as you pointed out, "adversary". "Devil" means "accuser."
In Rev.12:7-9 we read where the dragon (Satan) and his angels are cast down to the earth. He is identified as "the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan..."

I can't see that Satan was created perfect and then fell due to pride, because we are told "he was a murderer from the beginning, and he is a liar and the father of lies..", John 8:44, NIV.
And we read in 1 John 3:8, "He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

To me "from the beginning" is from his being created.

I just barely saw this.It was not addressed to me.It was just posted with no name.I know it is to me because I am the one who brought up this topic of Satan the devil not being Lucifer.Anyway............

Yes,Satan and Devil are only titles.Yes,he does have a real name but the holy scriptures never makes it known.If it did then people would be able to have a close relationship with him, and worship him, knowing his name.This is the same reason Satan the Devil goes to great lengths to hide the true name of God the Almighty.He does not want people knowing God's true name because then they would have a close relationship with the Father.

When it refers to Satan the Devil as the Dragon and Old Serpent,these are all just titles.Nothing more.

Satan the Devil was not always evil.He was once a loyal angel.He turned bad because of his own selfish reasons.He too wanted to be worshipped.When it says from the beginning.It is referring to mankind's beginning,not his.In the garden of Eden.

Nada · Nov 13, 2014

Bick said:
I agree with your interpretation of the passage in Isaiah 14, that it is a proverb against the king of Babylon, who in his heart would be like the Most High.
If "Satan", "the Devil" are only titles, then, does he have a name? Actually, I see his name is Satan, which means, as you pointed out, "adversary". "Devil" means "accuser."
In Rev.12:7-9 we read where the dragon (Satan) and his angels are cast down to the earth. He is identified as "the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan..."

I can't see that Satan was created perfect and then fell due to pride, because we are told "he was a murderer from the beginning, and he is a liar and the father of lies..", John 8:44, NIV.
And we read in 1 John 3:8, "He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

To me "from the beginning" is from his being created.

Another thing.It is not my interpretation.It is God's word.There is only one interpretation and that is what God says.

Genesis 40:8 "We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."

we-live-now · Nov 14, 2014

URAVIP2ME said:
The serpent of Genesis chapter 3 is Not one of the snakes of earthly creation, but the ' serpent ' of Revelation 12 v 9 meaning Satan the Devil.

The ' woman ' of Genesis 3 v 15 is a symbolic woman see Revelation chapter 12

Amen. I agree that the Serpent is also "the Devil" as Revelation tells us they are the same spiritual being. "The Woman" is a name or title given to "The man's" wife or lower realm "helper" or other half. I suspect you know this because you knew the serpent was not an earthly "snake", but the entire Bible is NOT an book about natural, physical Earth. But everything will play out there. It is a SPIRITUAL book about the spiritual (and soul) realms of Earth and Heaven which are EVEN more real than the "shadow" realm of natural and physical earth we live in now. These will be totally destroyed and re"formed".

Thus, "the woman" in Genesis is the part of "the man" who is below in the lower realms as his "helper". She is considered to be the "soul" who is sent to the lower realms of darkness and will "die" to give birth to the new creation above. When this occurs at the end of this age, God will make appear in the "sky" or our own minds the "sign of the son of man" and he will appear. "Sky" = "heaven" = higher realm of man = upper soul and spirit of man himself. This is where Satan/the devil ruled and is still ruling for unbelievers. He will be fully removed as "the truth" slays him with his two edged sword.

Powerful stuff, huh? It's all in the Word and I believe every word of God in it's original language.

God bless you friend.

Nada · Nov 14, 2014

we-live-now said:
Amen. I agree that the Serpent is also "the Devil" as Revelation tells us they are the same spiritual being. "The Woman" is a name or title given to "The man's" wife or lower realm "helper" or other half. I suspect you know this because you knew the serpent was not an earthly "snake", but the entire Bible is NOT an book about natural, physical Earth. But everything will play out there. It is a SPIRITUAL book about the spiritual (and soul) realms of Earth and Heaven which are EVEN more real than the "shadow" realm of natural and physical earth we live in now. These will be totally destroyed and re"formed".

Thus, "the woman" in Genesis is the part of "the man" who is below in the lower realms as his "helper". She is considered to be the "soul" who is sent to the lower realms of darkness and will "die" to give birth to the new creation above. When this occurs at the end of this age, God will make appear in the "sky" or our own minds the "sign of the son of man" and he will appear. "Sky" = "heaven" = higher realm of man = upper soul and spirit of man himself. This is where Satan/the devil ruled and is still ruling for unbelievers. He will be fully removed as "the truth" slays him with his two edged sword.

Powerful stuff, huh? It's all in the Word and I believe every word of God in it's original language.

God bless you friend.

The woman is symbolic.Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

This is not a literal woman.It is the seed that will produce Jesus and his anointed ones.

4 Soon after the rebellion in Eden, Jehovah made a promise that a “woman” would produce a “seed.”* (Read Genesis 3:15.) That seed would eventually bruise the serpent, Satan, in the head. Jehovah later revealed that the seed would come through Abraham, belong to the nation of Israel, be a Judean, and be a descendant of King David. (Gen. 22:15-18; 49:10; Ps. 89:3, 4; Luke 1:30-33) The principal part of that seed proved to be Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:16) The secondary part of the seed is made up of the spirit-anointed members of the Christian congregation. (Gal. 3:26-29) Jesus and these anointed ones unite to form God’s Kingdom, the instrument with which God will crush Satan.—Luke 12:32; Rom. 16:20.

5 That first prophecy given in Eden also stated that Satan would produce a “seed.” His seed would express enmity, or hatred, for the seed of the woman. Who make up the seed of the serpent? All those who imitate Satan’s hatred of God and oppose God’s people. Throughout history, Satan has organized his seed into various political movements, or kingdoms. (Luke 4:5, 6)

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

URAVIP2ME · Nov 14, 2014

Monk Of Reason said:
Why don't you follow the Quran or the Vedas?

Hi Monk, my apologies for not replying sooner [ plumbing problems ]

What is there about the Qur'an that is superior to the teachings of Christ ?
What is there about the Vedas' prayers or hymns that would desire one to follow ?

Why Not follow Islam or Hinduism is their beliefs connected with soul and a hellfire.
Transmigration of the soul, or that a soul goes on to a hereafter.

The KJV Bible translated the word ' Gehenna ' into English as being a literal fire or hellfire.
In Scripture Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever. Gehenna being a useful symbol Not of forever burning, but destruction.

The punishment, starting with father Adam, for sinning is simply: death.
No postmortem penalty or punishment after death. Death itself is the punishment - Romans 6 vs 23,7
Jesus took that simple subject which other religions complicated with theories or philosophies. In just one sentence Jesus obliterated all fears or concerns about death.
At John 11 v 13 Jesus gives comfort by connecting death to sleep.
No mystery, but simplistic, that the dead are in a sleep-like state meaning the dead are powerless. The dead are Not conscious as Ecclesiastes 9 v 5 mentions.
Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have known that the Psalms which also teach unconscious sleep in death - see Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4.

Since father Adam became a ' sinning soul' [ Genesis 2 v 7 ] then Adam paid the price for sin which is: death. The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20; Acts 3 v 23. Adam sinned, Adam died. Adam simply ' returned' to where Adam started - Genesis 3 v 19 - the dust of the ground. A person can Not return or go back to a place he never was before. Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life.

Since we can not resurrect oneself or another then we need someone who can restore us back to life. While Jesus was on earth Jesus brought people back to healthy physical life on earth. That was a small-scale sample or preview of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom - Psalm 72 v 8
And Just as Jesus said it would be accomplished, at Matthew 24 v 14 that good news of God's kingdom is being proclaimed on an international scale today before the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth.- Acts 1 v 8

Monk Of Reason · Nov 14, 2014

URAVIP2ME said:
Hi Monk, my apologies for not replying sooner [ plumbing problems ]

What is there about the Qur'an that is superior to the teachings of Christ ?
What is there about the Vedas' prayers or hymns that would desire one to follow ?

Why Not follow Islam or Hinduism is their beliefs connected with soul and a hellfire.
Transmigration of the soul, or that a soul goes on to a hereafter.

The KJV Bible translated the word ' Gehenna ' into English as being a literal fire or hellfire.
In Scripture Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever. Gehenna being a useful symbol Not of forever burning, but destruction.

The punishment, starting with father Adam, for sinning is simply: death.
No postmortem penalty or punishment after death. Death itself is the punishment - Romans 6 vs 23,7
Jesus took that simple subject which other religions complicated with theories or philosophies. In just one sentence Jesus obliterated all fears or concerns about death.
At John 11 v 13 Jesus gives comfort by connecting death to sleep.
No mystery, but simplistic, that the dead are in a sleep-like state meaning the dead are powerless. The dead are Not conscious as Ecclesiastes 9 v 5 mentions.
Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have known that the Psalms which also teach unconscious sleep in death - see Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4.

Since father Adam became a ' sinning soul' [ Genesis 2 v 7 ] then Adam paid the price for sin which is: death. The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20; Acts 3 v 23. Adam sinned, Adam died. Adam simply ' returned' to where Adam started - Genesis 3 v 19 - the dust of the ground. A person can Not return or go back to a place he never was before. Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life.

Since we can not resurrect oneself or another then we need someone who can restore us back to life. While Jesus was on earth Jesus brought people back to healthy physical life on earth. That was a small-scale sample or preview of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom - Psalm 72 v 8
And Just as Jesus said it would be accomplished, at Matthew 24 v 14 that good news of God's kingdom is being proclaimed on an international scale today before the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth.- Acts 1 v 8

What about the Bible is more appealing or "better" than the Vedas or the Qu'ran? That is the point I am getting to. Why do I not simply follow the scripture? For similar reasons that you do not follow other scriptures.

gnostic · Nov 14, 2014

It is only in Christian and islamic teachings that satan rebelled.

There were no rebellion in Judaism or in the Tanakh (Old Testament in Christian bible), and there no Devil nor Iblis in Judaism. To do so, was to change Abrahamic religion from monotheism to dualism, like Zoroastrianism.

In the Hebrew scriptures satan was seen as agent working for God, not against god. He was the Adversary of Man, not of God.

Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

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