Why did the blood have to touch people?

metis · Nov 10, 2014

1prophet said:
METIS, YOU REMIND ME OF A GUY THAT READS A BOOK ON BLACKJACK, THEN GOES TO VEGAS THINKING HE CAN BEAT THE HOUSE. YOU OBVIOUSLY READ WORDS, BUT YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT. I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU QUICK ANSWERS...

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”
[IS THIS NOT THE LAW? AND WHAT IS ADULTERY? DAVID HAD 14 WIVES, BUT HE WAS NOT AN ADULTERER. WHY DID YOU POST THIS VERSE?

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”
[NOT IMP]

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”
[WHAT??? WHY DOES THIS APPLY]

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”
[WHAT DOES TIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE LAW?]

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”
[FIRST OF ALL, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WENT AWAY. IT MEANS THE OPPOSITE AS OTHER BIBLE’S TRASNLATE IT. YOU ARE LOOKING AT A TRASNLATION ISSUE…
Luke 16:16
(GW) "Moses' Teachings and the Prophets were in force until the time of John. Since that time, people have been telling the Good News about the kingdom of God, and everyone is trying to force their way into it.

OR

(CEV) Until the time of John the Baptist, people had to obey the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophets. But since God's kingdom has been preached, everyone is trying hard to get in.

John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”

[WHY DID YOU POST THIS? IS JESUS OF THE DEVIL? DID JESUS SIN?]

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”
[I MENTIONED THIS HERE OR IN ANOTHER POST. THE LAW HE IS TALKING ABOUT THERE IS JEWISH ORAL LAW AND ALSO IN ROMANS 7.]

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”
[AGAIN, JESUS DEATH RELEASED YOU FROM JEWISH ORAL LAW. NOT MOSAIC LAW]

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”
[HE IS THE END OF JEWISH ORAL LAW BLOTTING IT OUT AS HANDWRITINGS OF MEN]

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”
[FAITH IS NOT A NT CONCEPT IS IT? AND NEITHER IS GRACE. THE TORAH TALKS ALLA BOUT FAITH AND GRACE]

14:20: “All foods are clean.”

[THAT IS NOT TALKING ABOUT FOOD. IT IS METAPHORICAL. WHEN JESUS SAID EAT MY FLESH HE DID NOT MEAN EAT HIS FLESH. WHEN JOHN ATE THE SCROLL AND IT WAS BITTER HE DID NOT EAT PAPER. WHEN ADAM AND EVE ATA OFF THE WRONG TREE THEY DID NOT EAT A TREE. AND PAUL IS NOT TALKING ABOUT LITERAL FOOD AS WE KNOW THAT WHEN JESUS DIED A PIG DID NOT SUDDENLY BECOME A CLEAN ANIMAL DID IT? DID CATFISH BECOME CLEAN WHEN JESUS DIED?]

YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE RUNS DEEP.

Sorry to say that you really don't know what you're talking about as you seem to know next to nothing about Jewish Law, nor where it's found in Torah, nor how it relates to the Christian scriptures. And if you think I'm exaggerating, then will you kindly explain why it is that the early and later church walked away from the full observance of the Law? Do you keep kosher? obey the Shabbat Laws? etc.

Here's a good place to start studying: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

1prophet · Nov 10, 2014

METIS, I AM AN EXPERT IN TORAH LAW AND HAVE A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF THE JEWISH ORAL LAW TO THE POINT WHERE IT WAS SO BLASPHEMOUS TO ME I COULD NOT READ IT ANYMORE. HOWEVER, I AM NOT JEWISH AND HAVE NO DESIRE TO BE CONSIDERED UNDER A JEWISH RABBI WHO KEEPS JEWISH ORAL LAW THAT JESUS CONDEMNED...

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

JEWISH LAW IS NOT FOUND IN TORAH. NOWHERE TO BE FOUND AS IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF TORAH OR ELSE IT MAKES A MOCKERY OF TORAH. FOR EXAMPLE TORAH SAYS -

"IF A MAN'S OX FALLS IN THE DITCH HELP THE MAN". YOUR RABBIS CAME ALONG AND CHANGED THE WORDS TO...
"IF A JEW'S OX FALLS IN THE DITCH HELP HIM". QUITE A BIG CHANGE EH? THE TORAH WAS NOT FOR JEWS ANYWAY, IT WAS FOR ISRAELITES AND JEWS ARE NOT ISRAELITES OF OLD. BUT THAT IS ANOTHER DISCUSSION.

I DESPISE KOSHER! IT IS A RIDICULOUS SET OF RULES THOUGHT UP BY AN OVERLY PARANOID JEWISH PERSON SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY. SERIOUSLY. I KEEP THE FOOD LAWS OF LEVITICUS 11. SEEMS GOD TOLD ME THEIR ALL I NEED TO KNOW.

AND THE SABBATH? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU ORTHODOX JEWS? YOU MAKE THE SABBATH A DAY OF TOTAL RESTRICTION. THE SABBATH IS A DAY OF FREEDOM. DID JESUS SIN ON THE SABBATH? ACCORDING TO THE RABBIS YES. BUT I KNOW HE DID NOT SIN SO THE RABBI'S WAYS OF LOOKING A THINGS ARE WRONG.

THE SABBATH IS ABOUT NOT WORKING 8-5 IN YOUR NORMAL JOB. IT IS NOT ABOUT NOT TURNING ON A LIGHT SWITCH. IF YOU WANT TO GO BUILD A CHICKEN COOP YOU GO DO IT. IF YOU WANT TO PAINT YOUR HOUSE GO DO IT. JUST DO NOT DO BUSINESS. AND THERE ARE SOME FOOD IMPLICATIONS TOO.

SO WHETHER I KEEP IT OR NOT DOES NOT BETTER YOU WITH GOD. WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME IF I AN A HYPOCRITE TO JUSTIFY YOUR LACK OF KEEPING THE SABBATH?

1prophet · Nov 10, 2014

JUDAISM 101 IS A COMPLETE RE-WRITE OF THE TORAH TO EXCLUDE THE GENTILE WHEREAS THE TORAH INCLUDED THE FOREIGNER (GENTILE). JUDAISM 101 IS WHAT JESUS CONDEMNED. THEY HAVE EXCLUDED EVERYONE BUT THEMSELVES WHICH AGAIN GOES AGAINST TORAH. I HAVE CHANGED FOREIGNER TO GENTILE IN THEE VERSE TO GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS TO YOU...

Isa 56:6 Gentiles will follow me. They will love me and worship in my name; they will respect the Sabbath and keep our agreement.

Isa 14:1 The LORD will have mercy on Israel and will let them be his chosen people once again. He will bring them back to their own land, and gentiles will join them as part of Israel.

Deu 31:12 Everyone must come--men, women, children, and even the gentiles who live in your towns. And each new generation will listen and learn to worship the LORD their God with fear and trembling and to do exactly what is said in God's Law.

Lev 16:29 On the tenth day of the seventh month of each year, you must go without eating to show sorrow for your sins, and no one, including gentiles who live among you, is allowed to work.

Lev 17:10 I will turn against any of my people who eat blood. This also includes any gentiles living among you.

Lev 19:34 Instead, treat them as well as you treat citizens and love them as much as you love yourself. Remember, you were once gentiles in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Num 9:14 Anyone, including gentiles who live among you, can celebrate Passover, if they follow all the regulations.

Pegg · Nov 10, 2014

metis said:
Here's that verse: [4] and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,
[5] but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

Note that God was pleased with Abel's offering, so Able must have had that belief for some reason.

The reason he was pleased with Able was because of Abels good motives. Cain also brought some offerings, but God told him that he was not 'doing good'... cain went on to murder his brother which shows us why God was not pleased with Cain.

But nowhere in the account does God ask for any offerings. It is man who came up with the idea of giving something to God...and man who chose to offer animals.

1prophet · Nov 10, 2014

PEGG...

GOD HAS CHANGED HIS REQUIREMENTS FOR MAN MANY TIMES. IN GEN 9 HE GAVE US THE FIRST SET OF WRITTEN LAWS. AND ADAM AND EVE SINNED YET WE DO NOT KNOW THEIR LAWS AT THAT TIME.

LATER ALONG COMES MOSES AND HE IS GIVEN THE RULES AND LAWS FOR THE LEVITE PRIESTHOOD WHICH INCLUDED ANIMAL SACRIFICES FOR SIN AND FOR OTHER THINGS.

SO YES, GOD DID ASK FOR OFFERINGS.

Pegg · Nov 10, 2014

Harikrish said:
But it was God who introduced human sacrifice. The Jews offered animal sacrifices only.

Not always. The jews reverted to the practices of the false relgions and at times offered their own children to the false gods of the canannites. This is something God condemned...he told them plainly never to offer a human sacrifice.

Leviticus 20:1 "Jehovah went on speaking to Moses, saying: 2 “You are to say to the Israelites, ‘Any man of Israel and any foreigner who resides in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Mo′lech should be put to death without fail.+ The people of the land should stone him to death. 3 I myself will set my face against that man, and I will cut him off* from among his people, because he has given some of his offspring to Mo′lech and has defiled my holy place+ and has profaned my holy name

Deuteronomy 18:There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire,+ anyone who employs divination,+ anyone practicing magic,+ anyone who looks for omens,+ a sorcerer,

Deut 12:You must not do this to Jehovah your God, because they do for their gods every detestable thing that Jehovah hates, even burning their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods

2Chronicles 28:3 Moreover, he made sacrificial smoke in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom* and burned up his sons in the fire,+ following the detestable practices of the nations+ that Jehovah had driven out from before the Israelites.

God did not introduce human sacrifice... it was false religion which did that... and God made it a crime punishable by death.

Simplelogic · Nov 10, 2014

Harikrish said:
There isn't any law anywhere that allows someone to die for the sins of others. Sin is not transferable. Sin cannot be absolved by the sacrifice of another in your place. The whole concept of human sacrifice , Jesus the sacrificial lamb is pure nonsense. It was an alternate explanation offered by Christians to explain why Jesus died on the cross. He died for our sins. But quite simply put, Jesus was tried, convicted and put to death for blasphemy.

We must also look at the prophecy of the sin-bearing servant in Isaiah 53. The following are a few excerpts.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

For he was cut-off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of my people he was stricken.

When You make his soul an offering for sin,

For he shall bear their iniquities.

And he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

How do you reconcile these verses with your assertion above. Even if you want to argue Tovia Singer's argument of "the servant" being Israel and not Yeshua. You still have clear proof here that God accepts human for human sacrifices.

Simplelogic · Nov 10, 2014

metis said:
That's actually not true:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”

John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”

I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”

Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”

Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”

Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

Clearly the above does not pertain to the oral law.

Sorry for the delay… Didn't I began to address your argument here on another thread?

Simplelogic · Nov 10, 2014

1prophet said:
METIS, YOU REMIND ME OF A GUY THAT READS A BOOK ON BLACKJACK, THEN GOES TO VEGAS THINKING HE CAN BEAT THE HOUSE. YOU OBVIOUSLY READ WORDS, BUT YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT. I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU QUICK ANSWERS...

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”
[IS THIS NOT THE LAW? AND WHAT IS ADULTERY? DAVID HAD 14 WIVES, BUT HE WAS NOT AN ADULTERER. WHY DID YOU POST THIS VERSE?

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”
[NOT IMP]

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”
[WHAT??? WHY DOES THIS APPLY]

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”
[WHAT DOES TIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE LAW?]

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”
[FIRST OF ALL, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WENT AWAY. IT MEANS THE OPPOSITE AS OTHER BIBLE’S TRASNLATE IT. YOU ARE LOOKING AT A TRASNLATION ISSUE…
Luke 16:16
(GW) "Moses' Teachings and the Prophets were in force until the time of John. Since that time, people have been telling the Good News about the kingdom of God, and everyone is trying to force their way into it.

OR

(CEV) Until the time of John the Baptist, people had to obey the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophets. But since God's kingdom has been preached, everyone is trying hard to get in.

John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”

[WHY DID YOU POST THIS? IS JESUS OF THE DEVIL? DID JESUS SIN?]

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”
[I MENTIONED THIS HERE OR IN ANOTHER POST. THE LAW HE IS TALKING ABOUT THERE IS JEWISH ORAL LAW AND ALSO IN ROMANS 7.]

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”
[AGAIN, JESUS DEATH RELEASED YOU FROM JEWISH ORAL LAW. NOT MOSAIC LAW]

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”
[HE IS THE END OF JEWISH ORAL LAW BLOTTING IT OUT AS HANDWRITINGS OF MEN]

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”
[FAITH IS NOT A NT CONCEPT IS IT? AND NEITHER IS GRACE. THE TORAH TALKS ALLA BOUT FAITH AND GRACE]

14:20: “All foods are clean.”

[THAT IS NOT TALKING ABOUT FOOD. IT IS METAPHORICAL. WHEN JESUS SAID EAT MY FLESH HE DID NOT MEAN EAT HIS FLESH. WHEN JOHN ATE THE SCROLL AND IT WAS BITTER HE DID NOT EAT PAPER. WHEN ADAM AND EVE ATA OFF THE WRONG TREE THEY DID NOT EAT A TREE. AND PAUL IS NOT TALKING ABOUT LITERAL FOOD AS WE KNOW THAT WHEN JESUS DIED A PIG DID NOT SUDDENLY BECOME A CLEAN ANIMAL DID IT? DID CATFISH BECOME CLEAN WHEN JESUS DIED?]

YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE RUNS DEEP.

Prophet…are you willing to debate me personally on Paul's apostleship and validity. I believe, like you, that Yeshua completely kept the Torah and I am willing to defend this fact with any who wish to challenge it. I don't agree with your assessment of Paul. He clearly taught against the Law of Moses and I am willing to prove that fact as well.

Pegg · Nov 10, 2014

1prophet said:
PEGG...

GOD HAS CHANGED HIS REQUIREMENTS FOR MAN MANY TIMES. IN GEN 9 HE GAVE US THE FIRST SET OF WRITTEN LAWS. AND ADAM AND EVE SINNED YET WE DO NOT KNOW THEIR LAWS AT THAT TIME.

LATER ALONG COMES MOSES AND HE IS GIVEN THE RULES AND LAWS FOR THE LEVITE PRIESTHOOD WHICH INCLUDED ANIMAL SACRIFICES FOR SIN AND FOR OTHER THINGS.

SO YES, GOD DID ASK FOR OFFERINGS.

Can you point me to the scriptures in Genesis where God askes Abel for a sacrifice?

metis · Nov 10, 2014

Simplelogic said:
Sorry for the delay… Didn't I began to address your argument here on another thread?

Not that I recall, but at my age I don't recall a lot.

metis · Nov 10, 2014

Pegg said:
Not always. The jews reverted to the practices of the false relgions and at times offered their own children to the false gods of the canannites. This is something God condemned...he told them plainly never to offer a human sacrifice.

Leviticus 20:1 "Jehovah went on speaking to Moses, saying: 2 “You are to say to the Israelites, ‘Any man of Israel and any foreigner who resides in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Mo′lech should be put to death without fail.+ The people of the land should stone him to death. 3 I myself will set my face against that man, and I will cut him off* from among his people, because he has given some of his offspring to Mo′lech and has defiled my holy place+ and has profaned my holy name

Deuteronomy 18:There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire,+ anyone who employs divination,+ anyone practicing magic,+ anyone who looks for omens,+ a sorcerer,

Deut 12:You must not do this to Jehovah your God, because they do for their gods every detestable thing that Jehovah hates, even burning their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods

2Chronicles 28:3 Moreover, he made sacrificial smoke in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom* and burned up his sons in the fire,+ following the detestable practices of the nations+ that Jehovah had driven out from before the Israelites.

God did not introduce human sacrifice... it was false religion which did that... and God made it a crime punishable by death.

Can you point to any scripture whereas it states we sacrificed our children? Yes, we were warned not to do as such, but that's not the same as actually stating we did.

metis · Nov 10, 2014

Pegg said:
The reason he was pleased with Able was because of Abels good motives. Cain also brought some offerings, but God told him that he was not 'doing good'... cain went on to murder his brother which shows us why God was not pleased with Cain.

But nowhere in the account does God ask for any offerings. It is man who came up with the idea of giving something to God...and man who chose to offer animals.

Not at all true. Here's a link to the Law as specified in Torah, and please check out items 459-580 (some of the items in that list do not directly relate to this issue, however): Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

This particular practice is ancient and shows up numerous times in scripture, and many archaeologists believe it may predate the Abrahamic commitment to believe and follow one God. However, it is very difficult to know with certainty how a particular observance may have actually started.

Also:
Exod.10[25] But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exod.20[24] An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.

Exod.34[25] "You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning."

There are many more verses whereas it is quite clear that it is God that ordered animal and grain sacrifices (see Bible, Revised Standard Version ), and the early church also believed as such since the concept of Jesus as the "final sacrifice" would not make one iota of sense if they didn't.

Simplelogic · Nov 10, 2014

metis said:
Can you point to any scripture whereas it states we sacrificed our children? Yes, we were warned not to do as such, but that's not the same as actually stating we did.

7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. (1 Kgs. 11:7-8)

16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. 18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18)

2Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, 3but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (2 Kgs. 16:2-3)

17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 17:7)

1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hephzibah. 6And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6)

10He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Benhinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech. (2 Kgs. 23:10)

30"For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the LORD; they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it. 31And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. (Jer. 7:30-31)

35They built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jer. 32:35)

3You shall say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle. 4Because the people have forsaken me, and have profaned this place by burning incense in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, 5and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind; (Jer. 19:3-5)

20And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter 21that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them? (Ezek. 16:20-21)

30Wherefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go astray after their detestable things? 31When you offer your gifts and sacrifice your sons by fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, says the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.(Ezek. 20:30-31)

metis · Nov 10, 2014

Simplelogic said:
7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. (1 Kgs. 11:7-8)

16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. 18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18)

2Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, 3but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (2 Kgs. 16:2-3)

17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 17:7)

1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hephzibah. 6And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6)

10He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Benhinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech. (2 Kgs. 23:10)

30"For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the LORD; they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it. 31And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. (Jer. 7:30-31)

35They built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jer. 32:35)

3You shall say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle. 4Because the people have forsaken me, and have profaned this place by burning incense in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, 5and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind; (Jer. 19:3-5)

20And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter 21that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them? (Ezek. 16:20-21)

30Wherefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go astray after their detestable things? 31When you offer your gifts and sacrifice your sons by fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, says the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.(Ezek. 20:30-31)

Thanks for the correction as I had forgotten this. Hey, remember what I said about my age.

Simplelogic · Nov 10, 2014

metis said:
Thanks for the correction as I had forgotten this. Hey, remember what I said about my age.

No problem. I completely agree with your overall argument when it comes to animal sacrifice. It was clearly commanded by YHVH.

Pegg · Nov 11, 2014

metis said:
Not at all true. Here's a link to the Law as specified in Torah, and please check out items 459-580 (some of the items in that list do not directly relate to this issue, however): Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

This particular practice is ancient and shows up numerous times in scripture, and many archaeologists believe it may predate the Abrahamic commitment to believe and follow one God. However, it is very difficult to know with certainty how a particular observance may have actually started.

Also:
Exod.10[25] But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exod.20[24] An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.

Exod.34[25] "You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning."

There are many more verses whereas it is quite clear that it is God that ordered animal and grain sacrifices (see Bible, Revised Standard Version ), and the early church also believed as such since the concept of Jesus as the "final sacrifice" would not make one iota of sense if they didn't.

Able lived long before Moses. By the time of Moses, people of all nations had been offering animal (and human) sacrifices for centuries.

But the point im making is that God did not 'institute' blood sacrifices. If you read the account in Genesis carefully, Able was not asked to offer any sacrifice...he did it of his own volition. And from that time onward, man has offered various forms of sacrifice as a way to try and appease God. While God has graciously accepted the good motives of those offering sacrifices, he has often condemned some people for offering them and this really shows us that the sacrifices themselves are not what bring Gods pleasure. .

Pegg · Nov 11, 2014

Simplelogic said:
No problem. I completely agree with your overall argument when it comes to animal sacrifice. It was clearly commanded by YHVH.

Yes, it was commanded in the mosaic law.... but it was not commanded at the beginning of human history when Abel first offered his sacrifice. This is purely a man-made invention.... just as slavery was a man-made invention.

Pegg · Nov 11, 2014

Pegg said:
Able lived long before Moses. By the time of Moses, people of all nations had been offering animal (and human) sacrifices for centuries. Do you believe that God asked the pagan nations to offer him sacrifices?

But the point im making is that God did not 'institute' blood sacrifices. If you read the account in Genesis carefully, Able was not asked to offer any sacrifice...he did it of his own volition. And from that time onward, man has offered various forms of sacrifice as a way to try and appease God. While God has graciously accepted the good motives of those offering sacrifices, he has often condemned some people for offering them and this really shows us that the sacrifices themselves are not what bring Gods pleasure. .

metis · Nov 11, 2014

Pegg said:
Able lived long before Moses. By the time of Moses, people of all nations had been offering animal (and human) sacrifices for centuries.

But the point im making is that God did not 'institute' blood sacrifices. If you read the account in Genesis carefully, Able was not asked to offer any sacrifice...he did it of his own volition. And from that time onward, man has offered various forms of sacrifice as a way to try and appease God. While God has graciously accepted the good motives of those offering sacrifices, he has often condemned some people for offering them and this really shows us that the sacrifices themselves are not what bring Gods pleasure. .

You are ignoring what the scriptures state and imposing something that it doesn't state. Where the criticism of the sacrifices comes in as found within the Prophetic books in the Tanakh is the rote practice of offering sacrifices minus any intent to try and avoid sinning in the future, and some were undoubtedly doing just that. At no point are we told we must stop the sacrificial system.

Why did the blood have to touch people?

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