Isis: Threat to the Civilized World

I would advocate for attacking the causes, rather than the symptom.

Attack in this form of assymetric warfare tends to strengthen the enemy, it is an enemy born of radicalism and extremism - a military approach tends to be counter productive.
It can only drive the potential recruits to ever greater heights of extremity.

Attack extremism at its root cause - dissafection, frustration, alienation and solve the imbalances from which they spring rather than the inevitable consequences of dissafection.

As to ISIS specifically, the transition from terrorist cell structure to Government will be all but impossible to acheive. An amorphous terrorist movement has little or no infrastructure to attack - a Government sure as hell does.

Bunyip said:

I would advocate for attacking the causes, rather than the symptom.

Attack in this form of assymetric warfare tends to strengthen the enemy, it is an enemy born of radicalism and extremism - a military approach tends to be counter productive.
It can only drive the potential recruits to ever greater heights of extremity.

Attack extremism at its root cause - dissafection, frustration, alienation and solve the imbalances from which they spring rather than the inevitable consequences of dissafection.

As to ISIS specifically, the transition from terrorist cell structure to Government will be all but impossible to acheive. An amorphous terrorist movement has little or no infrastructure to attack - a Government sure as hell does.

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"On the night of December 16, 1773, the Sons of Liberty, a loosely knit secret organization of American colonists in favor of American independence, illegally boarded three British East India cargo ships in the Boston Harbor and threw 45 tons of tea into the harbor, rather than let the tea be landed. Today, as some have argued, this protest might be considered an act of terrorism, since it was property sabotage designed to bring to wide attention the political objectives of a non-state group"
1773: Boston Tea Party: Terrorism in the United States

I wonder if the American Revolution would have been considered an act of terrorism by the British, if today's mindset towards the concept of terrorism were prevalent in the days of the American Revolution.

I imagine it was indeed an act of terrorism.
And look, those renegades created an independent state.
And so I can only wonder how this fact affects your opinion that "the transition from terrorist cell structure to Government will be all but impossible to achieve."

Crippled Avenger said:

The question I have is 1) Should Pagans form self defense groups that monitor religious extremism ?

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Talk about delusional ideas …

Sonofason said:

"On the night of December 16, 1773, the Sons of Liberty, a loosely knit secret organization of American colonists in favor of American independence, illegally boarded three British East India cargo ships in the Boston Harbor and threw 45 tons of tea into the harbor, rather than let the tea be landed. Today, as some have argued, this protest might be considered an act of terrorism, since it was property sabotage designed to bring to wide attention the political objectives of a non-state group"
1773: Boston Tea Party: Terrorism in the United States

I wonder if the American Revolution would have been considered an act of terrorism by the British, if today's mindset towards the concept of terrorism were prevalent in the days of the American Revolution.

I imagine it was indeed an act of terrorism.
And look, those renegades created an independent state.
And so I can only wonder how this fact affects your opinion that "the transition from terrorist cell structure to Government will be all but impossible to achieve."

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Terrorism is in the eyes of he beholder I guess - one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.
In terms of the differences strategically in your example, that was prior to modern air power - it has changed geopolitics.
I would think that in the case of the Boston Tea Party, mitigating the greivances would have avoided war.
Thanks for the great response.

Bunyip said:

Terrorism is in the eyes of he beholder I guess - one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

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You can be both, but you are a terrorist if you use terror or the threat of terror against civilians.

I posted this else where but believe it is relevant here

I think the long term answer is to divide Iraq into the three states Sunni west, Shia south and Kurdish north. The current upheaval is the result of an anachranism by the British and French when they arbitrarily divided up the middle east after the first World War and the tribal tensions of the area. Iraq should have been divide into autonomous states along cultural lines like Pakistan and India. We are trying to fix a flawed system, it will be a hard slog.

IS is just the latest in a long litany of brutal regimes including Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Napoleon, Kim Il Sung, Alexander, Jeronimus Cornelius. As I see it those confronted with being over run by a regime such as IS have four choices.

1. Standup to them, state your rights and be promptly executed,
2. Hide - could work but risky,
3. Runaway regroup and fight another day - sensible
4. or fourthly to survive, join them.

Of course when you join them what usually occurs is you are immediately required to do the dirty work to prove your loyalty to your new masters, while their hands are clean of the gruesome work they order. Many otherwise innocent Sunnis will fall into this group unfortunately they will get the chop all the same when justice catches up with them.

Don't ya just love it when History repeats itself. IS cannot succeed as a state, after all who in their right mind would want to live there. No population, no economy, no state.
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icehorse said:

We'll continue to disagree on this point. Many factors contribute the creation of groups like ISIS. In no particular order:

- tribal culture
- foreign interventions
- intolerant ideologies
- unfortunate distribution of natural resources
- others...

Interventions are a factor no doubt, but "the West" did not create ISIS.

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Yes they did, they were fighting the Americans when they were still in Iraq because America put a Shia dictator in power who was killing thousands of Sunnis a monthly basis. You should check out the documentary called "Death Squads in Iraq"

F0uad said:

Yes they did, they were fighting the Americans when they were still in Iraq because America put a Shia dictator in power who was killing thousands of Sunnis a monthly basis. You should check out the documentary called "Death Squads in Iraq"

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No disagreement, but notice that the Sunni-Shia conflict had been baked into the situation for centuries... why is this?

Crippled Avenger said:

Recently, I have been observing Isis. I have seen them mercilessly kill the old, the young, Shiite Muslims, Christians and others that are different than their Sunni Muslim faith. I have observed their insane, mad rush through Iraq and was left with an agonized word in mind' WHY ?!?
For what reason do they feel the need to crucify, behead and torture the old, the young, Christians, Shiite Muslims and other that are not Sunni Muslims ? Why have they descended to the level of the monstrous Nazis, commitind infamous, murderous genocide on any one that is different then them. My cries finds it's answer in a hard, unspeaking sky as no answer readily comes to me.
What we must do is cruel yet clear: We must kill, burn and blow them away until not a man is left that will take up the name of Isis. We must wage unceasing warfare until every vestige of their murderous rampage is ended.
The question I have is 1) Should Pagans form self defense groups that monitor religious extremism ? 2) What is the attitude of average Christians ? Are they praying for these sinners or do they feel that they should be utterly annihilated and wish them to go to Hades ? COURIOUS MINDS WANNA KNOW !

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I see ISIS a bit differently; as tyrannical ******** that need to be contained.

But it's the age old problem, how do you kill them without creating more of the same? Our actions, and the actions of the British before us, largely created these groups. And any action we take is only liable to continue that cycle.

So I say give them a country of their own. A place where all the nutball extremist can go. Allow anyone crazy enough to want to go there safe passage into the country. Isolate them and leave them alone. Similar to what we did with Cuba. I'm not a fan of the Syrian king. So that would work...

icehorse said:

No disagreement, but notice that the Sunni-Shia conflict had been baked into the situation for centuries... why is this?

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But many of these problems are unsolvable because we look at them with western eyes. Sunni's and Shia's believe it is their job to decimate the evil opposition. There are really only two aproaches to the situation. The Saddam method - tyrannical oppression. Or let them duke it out and see who ends up in charge.

Underhill said:

I see ISIS a bit differently; as tyrannical ******** that need to be contained.

But it's the age old problem, how do you kill them without creating more of the same? Our actions, and the actions of the British before us, largely created these groups. And any action we take is only liable to continue that cycle.

So I say give them a country of their own. A place where all the nutball extremist can go. Allow anyone crazy enough to want to go there safe passage into the country. Isolate them and leave them alone. Similar to what we did with Cuba. I'm not a fan of the Syrian king. So that would work...

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I had an slight infestation of carpenter ants in my crawl space. I was able to remove the threat by extinguishing them all, every single one.

Sonofason said:

I had an slight infestation of carpenter ants in my crawl space. I was able to remove the threat by extinguishing them all, every single one.

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Yeah sounds good if we were talking about ants. But we are talking about people, among other people. Nuking the whole area isn't an option.

Crippled Avenger said:

Recently, I have been observing Isis. I have seen them mercilessly kill the old, the young, Shiite Muslims, Christians and others that are different than their Sunni Muslim faith. I have observed their insane, mad rush through Iraq and was left with an agonized word in mind' WHY ?!?
For what reason do they feel the need to crucify, behead and torture the old, the young, Christians, Shiite Muslims and other that are not Sunni Muslims ? Why have they descended to the level of the monstrous Nazis, commitind infamous, murderous genocide on any one that is different then them. My cries finds it's answer in a hard, unspeaking sky as no answer readily comes to me.
What we must do is cruel yet clear: We must kill, burn and blow them away until not a man is left that will take up the name of Isis. We must wage unceasing warfare until every vestige of their murderous rampage is ended.
The question I have is 1) Should Pagans form self defense groups that monitor religious extremism ? 2) What is the attitude of average Christians ? Are they praying for these sinners or do they feel that they should be utterly annihilated and wish them to go to Hades ? COURIOUS MINDS WANNA KNOW !

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Do you really think that ISIS is a religious organisation?!!! Don't be naive!

Isolation might be the only way to contain the problem of Isis.
Anyone trading with, supplying or supporting them in any way should be required to join them, and similarly isolated.

Any company found to be supplying them directly or indirectly, should be supervised by a government agency until it had established a new board. The existing board members, and any other Identified ISIS supporters, should have their assets seized and be deported to join ISIS for a minimum of 5 years.

Large public or international companies would not be exempt. There would be no defence of not knowing.

Any state or area attacked by them should be defended by an international force immediately, and the territory recovered.
The aim should be to to contain them in a smaller and smaller foot print. but not to directly attack them.

Any one who wants to leave them should be encouraged to do so, but required to join a retraining facility until ready to rejoin normal society.
Special international courts should be set up to facilitate the most rapid processing of cases, of both banning and recovery. There would be a single appeal court who would only look at miscarriage of justice.

Eastbury said:

Do you really think that ISIS is a religious organisation?!!! Don't be naive!

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If you were to remove the religious motive and structure there would be nothing left.

From their point of view they are justified by God.

This does not mean that individuals might not be also motivated, by power, greed, self interest and political interests.

Underhill said:

Yeah sounds good if we were talking about ants. But we are talking about people, among other people. Nuking the whole area isn't an option.

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Objectively speaking, I don't see why I should think that people are of greater value to this planet than ants. Perhaps you could explain to me why I should view human beings as being more deserving of life than other creatures on this planet.

Sonofason said:

Objectively speaking, I don't see why I should think that people are of greater value to this planet than ants. Perhaps you could explain to me why I should view human beings as being more deserving of life than other creatures on this planet.

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Self preservation.

Underhill said:

Self preservation.

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That is hardly an explanation. But it is a wonderful conversation stopper. Well done. Congratulations, you have succeeded in pulling the wool over your eyes.

Sonofason said:

That is hardly an explanation. But it is a wonderful conversation stopper. Well done. Congratulations, you have succeeded in pulling the wool over your eyes.

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Ask a nonsensical question. Get a smart *** response.

You suggested wiping them out. Except that who 'they' are is as clear as mud. Short of massacring the entire region you won't get them all. And most sensible people aren't willing to **** off the third of the planet that is muslim (even setting aside the moral implications) to deal with a regional problem.

Underhill said:

Ask a nonsensical question. Get a smart *** response.

You suggested wiping them out. Except that who 'they' are is as clear as mud. Short of massacring the entire region you won't get them all. And most sensible people aren't willing to **** off the third of the planet that is muslim (even setting aside the moral implications) to deal with a regional problem.

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I don't know, it seems as though you're trying to place a greater value on the lives of humans than you do ants. I'd like to know why. When you have a nest of carpenter ants in your yard or crawl space, you can't be sure which exact ants are responsible for digesting your home into ruins. If you kill the entire colony of ants, you remove the threat. And do please tell me what the moral implications are for destroying the entire nest.