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Yeshua vs the Pharisees (round 4)

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
—Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.” 9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.
—Now it was the Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews (Pharisees) were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. John 5:8-16

Yeshua once again clearly goes against the oral traditions….on purpose!! This was the true reason why Pharisees wanted him to be killed. He was exposing their fake religion.

It should be noted that Yeshua DID NOT GO AGAINST THE SABBATH. His closets friends and family displayed this after his death. They were even willing to not bury Yeshua until the Sabbath was over!!

50And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man 51(he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; 52this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain.54It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. 55Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes.
And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment. Luke 23: 50-56
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is highly unlikely that Jesus was somehow persecuted merely because of the issue of the observance or non-observance of the Sabbath as that simply would not make one iota of sense by itself. The questions posed by the Pharisee leaders mostly dealt with Jesus' take on the Law in general.

BTW, if the gospels are at all correct, Jesus did violate the
Sabbath when he traveled from village to village, which is forbidden except for the military.

BTW, health concerns are allowed to be dealt with on Shabbat as life and health take priority over ritual.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
It is highly unlikely that Jesus was somehow persecuted merely because of the issue of the observance or non-observance of the Sabbath as that simply would not make one iota of sense by itself. The questions posed by the Pharisee leaders mostly dealt with Jesus' take on the Law in general.

BTW, if the gospels are at all correct, Jesus did violate the
Sabbath when he traveled from village to village, which is forbidden except for the military.

BTW, health concerns are allowed to be dealt with on Shabbat as life and health take priority over ritual.

Actually there are many things Yeshua did to break the oral Torah…not just this. I have highlighted other cases as well and I will highlight more. Yeshua never broke the Law of Moses. I would challenge you to show me where he did.

Health concerns had nothing to do with this passage. The man was already healed!! Yeshua told him AFTER the fact to carry his bed and walk by the Pharisees.
 

Harikrish

Active Member
Actually there are many things Yeshua did to break the oral Torah…not just this. I have highlighted other cases as well and I will highlight more. Yeshua never broke the Law of Moses. I would challenge you to show me where he did.

Health concerns had nothing to do with this passage. The man was already healed!! Yeshua told him AFTER the fact to carry his bed and walk by the Pharisees.
Were the Jews upset with Jesus for doing good on the sabbath? Shouldn't the Jews be happy when another Jew chooses to do good on any day of the week? Why make an exception out of Jesus who was also a Jew?
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Were the Jews upset with Jesus for going good on the sabbath? Shouldn't the Jews be happy when another Jew chooses to do good on any day of the week? Why make an exception out of Jesus?
Most Jews loved Yeshua for doing this. It was the Pharisaic leaders who were against Yeshua. He was exposing their fake religion while at the same time,performing a valid miracle.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually there are many things Yeshua did to break the oral Torah…not just this. I have highlighted other cases as well and I will highlight more. Yeshua never broke the Law of Moses. I would challenge you to show me where he did.

Health concerns had nothing to do with this passage. The man was already healed!! Yeshua told him AFTER the fact to carry his bed and walk by the Pharisees.
Not traveling on the Sabbath is in the written Law.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Which Yeshua never broke. Only man made rules attached to this written Law. BTW , Yeshua is never called out by the Pharisees for traveling on the Sabbath.
Oh really, then how do you explain this:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”


Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”


John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”


Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”

I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”

Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”

Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”

Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”

How did walking away from the written Law become standard in the early church if Jesus somehow didn't set it up?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Now we are talking. First off, many of your proof texts are from Paul. I fully agree that Paul did teach the abrogation of Torah so I have no argument for you there. I would argue that Yeshua was against Paul and his doctrines though. Let me address each one of your charges from the gospels.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

Lets read the surrounding verses for some context:

31“It was said, ‘WHOEVERSENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’; 32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity (uncleanness), makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Matt 5: 31-32

Yeshua is not condemning divorce or remarriage. He is condemning ILLEGAL divorce as outlined in the Torah.

Deuteronomy 24:1
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent (uncleanness) about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,

Sexual impurity was the ONLY reason for a valid divorce certificate. Whether adultery or any of the sexual impurity laws of Lev 18.

Pharisees were teaching that a man could divorce a women for any reason they wanted in the first century. Yeshua corrected them on this and upheld the Torah in doing so.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I will be away from my computer for the next few days. I promise I will address the rest of your verses. They are valid questions.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Heres another quick one before I go.

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”

Lets first look at what else Yeshua said about the Law:

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill (prophecies).18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


Now lets reread Luke without cutting Yeshua off in mid sentence:

16“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

This is about not taking the Law into your own hands. It is not negating the legal premise of "eye for an eye". Yeshua actually upholds the stoning commandments and believed in the legal system of Torah:

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONORYOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TOBE PUT TO DEATH.’ 5But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,6he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

9‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’” Matt 15: 1-9
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Goodness…this gets tiring.

I spend a lot of time and energy trying to get my point across to myself.

th_smiley-question_100284326.jpg
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
18Now when Jesus saw a crowd around Him, He gave orders to depart to the other side of the sea.19Then a scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.” 20Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” 21Another of the disciples said to Him, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” 22But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.” Matthew 8: 18-22

Yeshua was challenging this man to leave his home and follow him. He was thought that it was more important to wait for his father to die before following Yeshua. I think it is illogical to assume that this mans father was dead at the time this man said this. I also think its illogical to assume this man left his father alone in a home without any aid. No Torah command broken here.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
—Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.” 9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.
—Now it was the Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews (Pharisees) were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. John 5:8-16

Yeshua once again clearly goes against the oral traditions….on purpose!! This was the true reason why Pharisees wanted him to be killed. He was exposing their fake religion.

It should be noted that Yeshua DID NOT GO AGAINST THE SABBATH. His closets friends and family displayed this after his death. They were even willing to not bury Yeshua until the Sabbath was over!!

50And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man 51(he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; 52this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain.54It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. 55Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes.
And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment. Luke 23: 50-56

I am trying to understand the train of thought here:

1. There are Oral Laws.
2. Jesus does not abide by Oral Laws.
3. Hence, Oral Laws must be fake.

Is that the point you are making here?
My logic would have been something like:

1. There are Oral Laws.
2. Jesus does not abide by Oral Laws.
3. Hence, Jesus has not abided by Oral Laws.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I am trying to understand the train of thought here:

1. There are Oral Laws.
2. Jesus does not abide by Oral Laws.
3. Hence, Oral Laws must be fake.

Is that the point you are making here?
My logic would have been something like:

1. There are Oral Laws.
2. Jesus does not abide by Oral Laws.
3. Hence, Jesus has not abided by Oral Laws.

The point here was not to convince anyone about the validity of the oral commands. The point of these posts were to respond to the many charges against Yeshua which claimed him to be against the law of Moses. Just because Yeshua rejected many takkanah does not mean he went against the law of Moses. Yeshua's take on the Torah was similar to Karaite Jews then and now.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The point here was not to convince anyone about the validity of the oral commands. The point of these posts were to respond to the many charges against Yeshua which claimed him to be against the law of Moses. Just because Yeshua rejected many takkanah does not mean he went against the law of Moses. Yeshua's take on the Torah was similar to Karaite Jews then and now.

In your OP you state the Jesus was "exposing" the fake religion of the Pharisees. You have not adequately demonstrated how he was doing this in the passage you quoted in that same post. All you've demonstrated was that Jesus didn't keep Pharisaical Law. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think anybody argued that Jesus was pro-Pharisaical Law. So bringing proof tat he was against it is kind of redundant.
 
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