Our Gay community and our faith community

Pah · Apr 3, 2006

From my inbox

"God made me for a reason and nothing is in vain Redemption
comes in many shapes with many kinds of pain." -- From
"Travelin' Thru," by Dolly Parton, for Transamerica

As these words from Dolly Parton's Oscar-nominated song invoke,
the faith journey for transgender people and religious
institutions that are working to become truly inclusive is one
of understanding that God -- however we understand God --
embraces us for who we know ourselves to be. Transgender people
are a precious gift to the religious community. They challenge
us to view with honesty the limits in our vision of
inclusiveness and push us toward a more expansive expression of
love. As the Rev. Yvette Flunder writes in Where the Edge
Gathers, "The trans community makes us tell the truth about the
blurred gender lines that have always existed in our community.
Transgender [people] make us honest."

However, many places of worship have unfortunately fallen short
in both their honesty and their expression of inclusive love.
Even religious institutions that are open and affirming to gay,
lesbian and bisexual people are often silent about transgender
people. The transgender community calls upon people of faith to
be more compassionate, more loving and more open to the wonder
of difference which is God's gift to all of us

Speaking of only the transgendered population of the Gay community, it is equally applicable to the whole LGBTI community

It should also be noted that pluralism apllies to sexuality as well as faith. We are a pluralistic nation dedicated to respect, by Constitutional edict, the faith of others. To neglect sexuality is to disrespect both Constitution and faith.

Green Gaia · Apr 3, 2006

However, many places of worship have unfortunately fallen short
in both their honesty and their expression of inclusive love.
Even religious institutions that are open and affirming to gay,
lesbian and bisexual people are often silent about transgender
people. The transgender community calls upon people of faith to
be more compassionate, more loving and more open to the wonder
of difference which is God's gift to all of us

I don't remember if I've talked about this here or not, but my congregation recently lost a transgendered person very suddenly to heart failure. Because of her we could not ignore the transgendered population, not because she demanded we pay attention, but because she was part of our religious family who brought unique concerns. Because we cared and loved her concerns became our concerns too. It is my sincere hope that with her death we do not falter on our commitment to the transgendered community, and it some small way keep her spirit with us.

It is a sad truth that even among gay and lesbian groups, the transgendered and, to a lesser extent now, bisexuals, are not included in their concerns or commitments. But this is changing.

And the intersexed is a group that almost no one recognizes or even knows about.

michel · Apr 3, 2006

Maize said:
I don't remember if I've talked about this here or not, but my congregation recently lost a transgendered person very suddenly to heart failure. Because of her we could not ignore the transgendered population, not because she demanded we pay attention, but because she was part of our religious family who brought unique concerns. Because we cared and loved her concerns became our concerns too. It is my sincere hope that with her death we do not falter on our commitment to the transgendered community, and it some small way keep her spirit with us.

It is a sad truth that even among gay and lesbian groups, the transgendered and, to a lesser extent now, bisexuals, are not included in their concerns or commitments. But this is changing.

And the intersexed is a group that almost no one recognizes or even knows about.

And the intersexed is a group that almost no one recognizes or even knows about.

I even had to look it up in the dictionary, though I was pretty sure I was right, which (thanfully), I was.

That's very poingnant (both your posts, Maize, and Pah).

Somehow, it makes me feel guilty for being 'ordinary' (well at least sexually.........well, I think)........How I wish the world could learn to love and help, instead of mock and estrange.........

Pah · Apr 3, 2006

And the intersexed is a group that almost no one recognizes or even knows about.

For those who are unsure of what "intersexed" means, it is that surgical "correction" occurrs on young infants well before sexual identity is firmly established. The surgery may or may not coincide with sexual identity.

Mike182 · Apr 3, 2006

bob, Amy, your posts just brought a tear to my eye.

BUDDY · Apr 3, 2006

Pah said:
Oscar-nominated song invoke,
the faith journey for transgender people and religious
institutions that are working to become truly inclusive is one
of understanding that God -- however we understand God --
embraces us for who we know ourselves to be.

I find no evidence of this in my understanding of God and His desire for mankind. He does not accept how people feel or what people want to be, but He does accept those who wish to obey Him and be who He wants them to be. There are people with Y chromosomes and there are those without. It is my belief that you are born into one sex or the other, adn no amount of butchering of the body will ever change the fact that genetically, you are how He made you.

standing_alone · Apr 3, 2006

Buddy said:
There are people with Y chromosomes and there are those without. It is my belief that you are born into one sex or the other, adn no amount of butchering of the body will ever change the fact that genetically, you are how He made you.

Wow, I don't even know what to say to this. Sure, one may be physically a certain sex, but it doesn't mean they are mentally the same gender as their physical parts.

Buttons* · Apr 3, 2006

standing_alone said:
Wow, I don't even know what to say to this. Sure, one may be physically a certain sex, but it doesn't mean they are mentally the same gender as their physical parts.

es verdad

BUDDY · Apr 3, 2006

standing_alone said:
Wow, I don't even know what to say to this. Sure, one may be physically a certain sex, but it doesn't mean they are mentally the same gender as their physical parts.

"I just really feel like I should have been born a dolphin" - Harold Broflovski

standing_alone · Apr 3, 2006

Buddy said:
"I just really feel like I should have been born a dolphin" - Harold Broflovski

:clap Oooh, wow! What a compelling argument!

Buttons* · Apr 3, 2006

BUDDY said:
"I just really feel like I should have been born a dolphin" - Harold Broflovski

well i'm convinced i should have been a cat

BUDDY · Apr 3, 2006

standing_alone said:
:clap Oooh, wow! What a compelling argument!

Sorry, my attempt at adding humor into the mix. Don't ever take your self too seriously, you know. On the other hand, if how I felt I should be dictated how I would look, then at the age of 7 I would have had surgery to make me into Stretch Armstrong. You are who you are, and it is how you live, in my opinion, not how you look, that makes life special.

standing_alone · Apr 3, 2006

Buttons* said:
well i'm convinced i should have been a cat

You know, I was afraid to admit until you were so couragous to admit that, that I feel I should have been an amoeba.

standing_alone · Apr 3, 2006

Buddy said:
Sorry, my attempt at adding humor into the mix. Don't ever take your self too seriously, you know.

No need to apologize. I was throwing some sarcasm into the mix, since that's my kind of humor.

Buddy said:
You are who you are, and it is how you life, in my opinion, not how you look, that makes life special.

And if a transgender person is happier living as a "different" sex, what's wrong with that? It may make life more special to them, rather than feeling like they aren't themselves. Also, not all transgender people get reconstructive surgery.

Green Gaia · Apr 3, 2006

BUDDY said:
You are who you are, and it is how you live, in my opinion, not how you look, that makes life special.

I agree with you here Buddy. It is how we live that is important. But who knows you better than you know yourself? If someone says, "This is how I feel...," how can we do anything but believe that this is how they really feel?

Pah · Apr 3, 2006

BUDDY said:
I find no evidence of this in my understanding of God and His desire for mankind. He does not accept how people feel or what people want to be, but He does accept those who wish to obey Him and be who He wants them to be. There are people with Y chromosomes and there are those without. It is my belief that you are born into one sex or the other, adn no amount of butchering of the body will ever change the fact that genetically, you are how He made you.

And what of the XXY and the XXXY and the XXYY people? Just how does God classify those?

I think it a bit strange that Jesus would accept people for what they are and, as you say, not God. It is also strange that almost all of the religious gay community have said that God, through revelation (and that's the work of the Holy Ghost), are accepts them. You wouldn't be doubting the work of the Holy Ghost would you?

Mike182 · Apr 3, 2006

BUDDY said:
Sorry, my attempt at adding humor into the mix. Don't ever take your self too seriously, you know. On the other hand, if how I felt I should be dictated how I would look, then at the age of 7 I would have had surgery to make me into Stretch Armstrong. You are who you are, and it is how you live, in my opinion, not how you look, that makes life special.

it is so easy to say that when you are not transgenderd, or born with one of many birth defects

if God is making these genetic conditions as you say he is, he is (in my oppinion) malicious and not worthy of my worship

luckily i do not believe the same as you

BUDDY · Apr 3, 2006

Maize said:
I agree with you here Buddy. It is how we live that is important. But who knows you better than you know yourself? If someone says, "This is how I feel...," how can we do anything but believe that this is how they really feel?

Don't get me wrong, I would never say they no right to change themselves, but the atitude is a bit perplexing to me. There is plenty that I don't like about myself and my body. When I was little I hated my freckles. Kids would make fun of me because of it and I had a real problem with the ridicule I took because of it. At the time, I would even say that it caused me some mental anguish. I mean, I had bad freckles, and red hair, and took every joke that you could think of. I hated it and myself for quite sometime because of it. Now, if I had gone into a doctor and said that my freckles are causing me mental anguish, and that I felt I should have been born without freckles, does that mean that it would have perfectly reasonable to have my freckles removed by laser, because I felt that way. To me, the issue of surgery in order to change yourself is no different, whether it be plastic surgery to take out some fat that you are too lazy to work off, or having your genetalia changed because you feel like you are different. It seems all rooted in the same childish attitude that many, many kids go through whole growing up.

No offense is intended to anyone about this delicate issue.

BUDDY · Apr 3, 2006

Pah said:
And what of the XXY and the XXXY and the XXYY people? Just how does God classify those?

Do you believe that those with Klinefelter syndrome are automatically prone to being homosexual, or suffer from a gender identity disorder? Because the research does not make such claims.

pah said:
I think it a bit strange that Jesus would accept people for what they are and, as you say, not God.

When did Jesus ever say that he cared less whether people who were sinning were still accepted of him? He didn't. Loving someone, and accepting their sin, are two totally different things. I can love someone, and yet disassociate myself from them because I disagree with the path that they have taken and choices that they have made. Jesus did the same thing.

pah said:
It is also strange that almost all of the religious gay community have said that God, through revelation (and that's the work of the Holy Ghost), are accepts them. You wouldn't be doubting the work of the Holy Ghost would you?

Don't worry, I have very serious problems with those who believe in constant revelation through the gifts of the holy ghost as well. I don't believe in it, and think that everything that is needed has been revealed to us through the Bible. But, I will save that for another thread as it is off topic.

Pah · Apr 3, 2006

BUDDY said:
Do you believe that those with Klinefelter syndrome are automatically prone to being homosexual, or suffer from a gender identity disorder? Because the research does not make such claims.

You didn't answer the question. How would God classify XXY and the XXXY and the XXYY people? You were keen to bring in the Y chromosone as if that was God's standard. You did that without thinking of the other chromosonal types.

I can tell you that the XXY type I met look naturally like a women but because of the pesky little Y she was classified by the state as male. What did God create?

When did Jesus ever say that he cared less whether people who were sinning were still accepted of him? He didn't. Loving someone, and accepting their sin, are two totally different things. I can love someone, and yet disassociate myself from them because I disagree with the path that they have taken and choices that they have made. Jesus did the same thing.

Further amazement on my part - I have to remind you of the woman at the well and the woman about to be stoned. I have to remind you of the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Don't worry, I have very serious problems with those who believe in constant revelation through the gifts of the holy ghost as well. I don't believe in it, and think that everything that is needed has been revealed to us through the Bible. But, I will save that for another thread as it is off topic.

Yes it is another topic and one that does not bode well for you. There is no proof, no truth in the Bible except by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Though you do not believe it, it would seem that those who acknowledge the Holy Ghost would be in a better position. It can be said, by scripture, that disrespect for the Holy Ghost is the one unforgiveable sin - it matters not whether the Holy Ghost operates with you or with others.

Matthew 9:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Those that claim the Holy Ghost are to be granted credibilty at you own risk.

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