Paul declares the God of Israel dead!

dawny0826 · Nov 2, 2014

Simplelogic said:
We see this a little differently. I don't believe one thing changed from "Torah to NT". But I do not regard 80% of the NT personally. What I mean is, Yeshua taught the same concept of Torah obedience. He reiterates this concept over and over with each teaching and parable. They are all about turning from evil and doing YHVH's commandments with your heart! The same way Israel was commanded to from the beginning.

I do agree that Christianity teaches a different concept. However, I am willing to debate that this is ONLY because of people putting Pauline teachings above those of Yeshua. I also believe that Christianity has never recovered from this and continues to read Yeshua's words through Paul's lens.

Christ Himself speaks to atonement, love and a myriad of life lessons. Don't assume that all Christians hero worship Paul. Without Paul's teachings, the Christian would understand the plan for salvation throught he gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John alone.

Simplelogic · Nov 2, 2014

dawny0826 said:
Please provide NT scripture to refute.

Yeshua believed in practicing and teaching the whole Torah. He also commanded his followers to teach the whole Torah.

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19

Every other parable Yeshua teaches is based off of this one concept. Repent and obey the Fathers commands.

Yeshua upholds stoning commandments even!!

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONORYOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ (stoning commandment) 5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” 6he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

Yeshua taught animal sacrifice too!

"Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way, First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Matthew 5:23,24

Many Christians think that Yeshua was referring to monetary gifts. In many Christian churches there is a table near the front of the sanctuary that is called an "altar"... from whence comes the evangelical phrase, "altar call". On this table is placed the congregation's monetary gifts. These gifts are almost always referred to as "offerings". There were no such tables called "altars" at the time Yeshua spoke these words. In Yeshua's day, "altar" meant only one thing... the place on which burnt sacrifices were offered. The monetary gifts were given at a place called "the treasury". See Mark 12:41-44.

Yeshua, even commanded individuals to go and make a specific burnt offering. After healing a man with leprosy, Yeshua told him;

"...go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." Matthew 8:4

This "gift" is found in Lev 14: 1-32. It consisted of the following at least 2 birds and 2 male lambs.

Simplelogic · Nov 2, 2014

dawny0826 said:
Christ Himself speaks to atonement, love and a myriad of life lessons. Don't assume that all Christians hero worship Paul. Without Paul's teachings, the Christian would understand the plan for salvation throught he gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John alone.

I disagree. In fact I believe the salvation plan in the gospels is completely opposite to the one in Paul's epistles.

dawny0826 · Nov 2, 2014

Simplelogic said:
I disagree. In fact I believe the salvation plan in the gospels is completely opposite to the one in Paul's epistles.

How so, specifically?

Simplelogic · Nov 2, 2014

http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/st...Final Chapters/Chapter 17-JesusvPaulchart.pdf

Simplelogic · Nov 2, 2014

James versus Paul

James (Yeshua's brother) also refuted Paul's doctrines in a clear and concise way.

Robert.Evans · Nov 2, 2014

Simplelogic said:
The husband being spoken of is the God of the Torah (law of Moses).

That's very good. Agreed. Clever.
But gods can be resurrected.
Good point though, glad you brought it up.

As I see God working through reflections of his own Self, it is not a problem.

dawny0826 · Nov 2, 2014

Simplelogic said:
Yeshua believed in practicing and teaching the whole Torah. He also commanded his followers to teach the whole Torah.

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19

Every other parable Yeshua teaches is based off of this one concept. Repent and obey the Fathers commands.

Yeshua upholds stoning commandments even!!

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONORYOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ (stoning commandment) 5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” 6he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

Yeshua taught animal sacrifice too!

"Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way, First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Matthew 5:23,24

Many Christians think that Yeshua was referring to monetary gifts. In many Christian churches there is a table near the front of the sanctuary that is called an "altar"... from whence comes the evangelical phrase, "altar call". On this table is placed the congregation's monetary gifts. These gifts are almost always referred to as "offerings". There were no such tables called "altars" at the time Yeshua spoke these words. In Yeshua's day, "altar" meant only one thing... the place on which burnt sacrifices were offered. The monetary gifts were given at a place called "the treasury". See Mark 12:41-44.

Yeshua, even commanded individuals to go and make a specific burnt offering. After healing a man with leprosy, Yeshua told him;

"...go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." Matthew 8:4

This "gift" is found in Lev 14: 1-32. It consisted of the following at least 2 birds and 2 male lambs.

Well...we have don't interpret each of these verses the same. And I suppose you really want to refute Paul's teachings anyway, so, I'll move on to your next post and we'll have to agree to hold differing viewpoints, here.

I do appreciate you posting scripture to support your viewpoint.

Simplelogic · Nov 2, 2014

dawny0826 said:
Well...we have don't interpret each of these verses the same. And I suppose you really want to refute Paul's teachings anyway, so, I'll move on to your next post and we'll have to agree to hold differing viewpoints, here.

I do appreciate you posting scripture to support your viewpoint.

I appreciate your valid questions. Thank you.

Desert Snake · Nov 2, 2014

roger1440 said:
Paul had tried to use contrived Jewish theology to convince the Jews to believe his spiel. When he failed he went to the Gentiles.

Or, this is his perspective as to what Xian doctrine was. With criticism needs to come some backup theories, without a bunch of religious baggage tacked on. It doesn't matter to me whether Paul had an agenda or not, I already have my beliefs, so it's just 'evidence' as to who was presenting a more accurate depiction of what Jesus taught.

dawny0826 · Nov 2, 2014

Simplelogic said:
http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/JWO_Online/2006 Final Chapters/Chapter 17-JesusvPaulchart.pdf

It's going to take time for me to get through this.

From your document:

One is not justified nor born again by repentance from sin, but by faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift of God - not by works, so that none can boast.

It is by the grace of God that we're spared. "Not by works" in this context means that we're not the provider of this gift of salvation. This doesn't negate what Christ has said in regards to salvation at all. For one, Christ tells us that it's through Him, and through belief in Him that we can have salvation at all.

Simplelogic · Nov 2, 2014

dawny0826 said:
It's going to take time for me to get through this.

From your document:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

It is by the grace of God that we're spared. "Not by works" in this context means that we're not the provider of this gift of salvation. This doesn't negate what Christ has said in regards to salvation at all. For one, Christ tells us that it's through Him, and through belief in Him that we can have salvation at all.

I will respond shortly to this.

If you want. We can do a whole other thread on this topic.

roger1440 · Nov 2, 2014

disciple said:
Or, this is his perspective as to what Xian doctrine was. With criticism needs to come some backup theories, without a bunch of religious baggage tacked on. It doesn't matter to me whether Paul had an agenda or not, I already have my beliefs, so it's just 'evidence' as to who was presenting a more accurate depiction of what Jesus taught.

Why do you think he could not convince the Jews? Make believe for a second you are a Jew. Would you be convinced?

Look closely at my signature.

roger1440 · Nov 2, 2014

dawny0826 said:
Love as it involves atonement differents greatly between Torah & the biblical gospels. Do you argue this?

The canonical Gospels must be in agreement with the written Torah.

Robert.Evans · Nov 3, 2014

Simplelogic said:
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the Torah, Jews) how that the Torah hath dominion over a man (anthropos) as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman (Israel/Jews) which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that Torah; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the Torah, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the Torah, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (KJV) Romans 7

To add further to your point that there God is dead.... it would certainly make sense when you consider his Temple, the place where he would reside, is not there anymore... again, interesting

Robert.Evans · Nov 3, 2014

Scott C. said:
When Christ died and when we repent, Christ becomes our "Father" by adoption. We are "born again" and become his children. Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and we are no longer under that law. This does not mean that God the Father is dead. It means that we have a new relationship with Christ.

Interesting. So we might say, as The Father and I are One (Jh10) that the father died when the son did..... hmmm

Robert.Evans · Nov 3, 2014

Simplelogic said:
Yes, that is Paul's claim also. But WHY is the law of Moses no longer binding?? Paul answers this question:

if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Paul makes it clear that is the "death of the husband" which causes the Law to be nullified.

That is very good. Yes sir. That is good

dawny0826 · Nov 3, 2014

Simplelogic said:
I will respond shortly to this.

If you want. We can do a whole other thread on this topic.

Sounds good to me.

Simplelogic · Nov 3, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
Interesting. So we might say, as The Father and I are One (Jh10) that the father died when the son did..... hmmm

I disagree. I believe Yeshua meant one in spirit or in communion. Yeshua makes it clear in many other passages that he was not the Father himself.

Simplelogic · Nov 3, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
That is very good. Yes sir. That is good

I'm glad you appreciate my take on Paul's writings. Just want to make it clear that I don't agree with Paul personally and I believe this portion of his writings to be blasphemous actually.

I do not believe that the God of Israel died. I also believe fully in His Torah still.

Paul declares the God of Israel dead!

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