Three days, three nights...

Redemptionsong said:

Bible Student,
The meaning of the expression 'between two evenings' is disputed, but I believe you have opted for the wrong interpretation.

The Speaker's commentary suggests the following:[paraphrase]

The ancient custom of the Hebrews was to slay the paschal lamb immediately after the the offering of the daily sacrifice, which on the day of passover took place a little earlier than usual, between 2pm and 3pm. This would allow about two hours and a half for slaying and preparing all the lambs. It is clear that they would not wait until sunset, at which time the evening meal would take place. This interpretation is supported by Rashi, Kimchi, Bochart, Lightfoot, Clericus, and Patrick.

The weakness of the other interpretation, is that the interval between sunset and total darkness is a short time in the East, and insufficient for the work.

Rosenmuller shows from the Talmud that the twilight, as strickly defined, did not last longer than it would take to walk half a mile ie. about ten minutes.

This leads me to think that the slaying of the lambs definitely took place on the 14 Nisan in the afternoon. The day is therefore called the PREPARATION. It is ALSO called the PASSOVER because that is when the slaying of the lamb occurs. The meal, or Seder, does not take place until the evening, which is then the beginning of a new day, the 15 NISAN. The 15 Nisan is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread and a holy convocation, or sabbath.

Inglesva, this would also suggest that Unger has mistakenly called the 13 Nisan the day of preparation, when, in fact it's the 14 Nisan.

Click to expand...

You are incorrect.What you are forgetting, or not paying attention to, is the fact that it does not turn Nisan 14th until 6pm,technically on Nisan 13th.Anything done before this time is Nisan 13th,which would not fit into what it states in the holy scriptures.It says the lamb is to kept until the 14th day and then slaughtered at twilight.There is no afternoon until 18 hours after twilight on Nissan 14th.So the lamb was definitely, with out a doubt, slaughtered at twilight on Nisan 14th.

Bible Student,
I'm not overlooking the fact that the day becomes 14 Nisan when the sun goes down on the 13 Nisan. I understand this FULLY.

You are trying to say that the Passover sacrifice was slain and also eaten on the evening of the 14 Nisan, which is sundown following 13 Nisan. In a very limited time period (twilight after sundown) you imagine thousands of animals were slaughtered and prepared by priests and Levites for eating THAT SAME EVENING!

The scriptural evidence for twilight being BEFORE the evening, between 3pm and 5pm on 14 Nisan, is supported by the historical evidence of Josiah's Passover festival in 2 Chronicles 35. This seems to make a clear distinction between the SACRIFICE and the FEAST. The passover is firstly a sacrifice, and secondly a feast. The SACRIFICE is to occur on 14 Nisan and the FEAST on the 15 Nisan.

The following reasons lend weight to this position:

1. NOWHERE in scripture does it ever talk about EIGHT days of eating unleavened bread. Yet you might expect to read this if the Passover SEDER was celebrated on 14 Nisan. The SEDER must have been celebrated on the evening of 15 Nisan, the first day of the FEAST of Unleavened Bread.

2. The fulfilment of the law by Jesus is only possible if you see Jesus Christ as the Passover lamb, slain at the same hour as the paschal sacrifice. This also provides a clear three days and nights in the tomb, following the evidence of the firstfruits offering.

I still admit there are difficult passages to explain, particularly between the gospel accounts (Mark 14:12 as compared with John, for example) but this does make me wonder whether there were TWO passovers - one being God's and the other the Jews - with a day between the two.

Redemptionsong said:

Rabbi0 and metis,
Do these references only occur in relation to Pesach?

Click to expand...

No because we use the same timing to determine the beginning time for the Sabbath.

Also, is there any historical evidence that Jews were celebrating the Passover Seder on 15 Nisan (in the first century CE)?

Click to expand...

Yes, because that's what's required according to Torah.

BTW, the "preparation day" is the 14th of Nissan, and it's labeled as such because of the necessity of having our house free from any leaven, so it all has to be out by the beginning of Passover. Also, the animals were slaughtered prior to the beginning of Passover, which also shows up in Torah, btw.

Redemptionsong said:

Bible Student,
I'm not overlooking the fact that the day becomes 14 Nisan when the sun goes down on the 13 Nisan. I understand this FULLY.

You are trying to say that the Passover sacrifice was slain and also eaten on the evening of the 14 Nisan, which is sundown following 13 Nisan. In a very limited time period (twilight after sundown) you imagine thousands of animals were slaughtered and prepared by priests and Levites for eating THAT SAME EVENING!

The scriptural evidence for twilight being BEFORE the evening, between 3pm and 5pm on 14 Nisan, is supported by the historical evidence of Josiah's Passover festival in 2 Chronicles 35. This seems to make a clear distinction between the SACRIFICE and the FEAST. The passover is firstly a sacrifice, and secondly a feast. The SACRIFICE is to occur on 14 Nisan and the FEAST on the 15 Nisan.

The following reasons lend weight to this position:

1. NOWHERE in scripture does it ever talk about EIGHT days of eating unleavened bread. Yet you might expect to read this if the Passover SEDER was celebrated on 14 Nisan. The SEDER must have been celebrated on the evening of 15 Nisan, the first day of the FEAST of Unleavened Bread.

2. The fulfilment of the law by Jesus is only possible if you see Jesus Christ as the Passover lamb, slain at the same hour as the paschal sacrifice. This also provides a clear three days and nights in the tomb, following the evidence of the firstfruits offering.

I still admit there are difficult passages to explain, particularly between the gospel accounts (Mark 14:12 as compared with John, for example) but this does make me wonder whether there were TWO passovers - one being God's and the other the Jews - with a day between the two.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry you cannot see it brother.I will leave you now.It was nice speaking to you and discussing this matter.You have your self a nice dayGoodbye.........

Redemptionsong said:

Bible Student,
The meaning of the expression 'between two evenings' is disputed, but I believe you have opted for the wrong interpretation.

The Speaker's commentary suggests the following:[paraphrase]

The ancient custom of the Hebrews was to slay the paschal lamb immediately after the the offering of the daily sacrifice, which on the day of passover took place a little earlier than usual, between 2pm and 3pm. This would allow about two hours and a half for slaying and preparing all the lambs. It is clear that they would not wait until sunset, at which time the evening meal would take place. This interpretation is supported by Rashi, Kimchi, Bochart, Lightfoot, Clericus, and Patrick.

The weakness of the other interpretation, is that the interval between sunset and total darkness is a short time in the East, and insufficient for the work.

Rosenmuller shows from the Talmud that the twilight, as strickly defined, did not last longer than it would take to walk half a mile ie. about ten minutes.

This leads me to think that the slaying of the lambs definitely took place on the 14 Nisan in the afternoon. The day is therefore called the PREPARATION. It is ALSO called the PASSOVER because that is when the slaying of the lamb occurs. The meal, or Seder, does not take place until the evening, which is then the beginning of a new day, the 15 NISAN. The 15 Nisan is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread and a holy convocation, or sabbath.

Inglesva, this would also suggest that Unger has mistakenly called the 13 Nisan the day of preparation, when, in fact it's the 14 Nisan.

Click to expand...

I don't agree with this at all.


If it all took place on the 14th during daylight, - That would mean hundreds, or thousands, of people had to run to the Temple - wait their turn for the Priests to make their individual Sacrifices, - run back home with the raw Sacrifice - slap blood on the lintel - cook a whole raw lamb - and fully eat a whole lamb - with the ceremonies included - before the next day - which would start around 6PM that SAME DAY - in other words ALL in a few hours time.


That is impossible.



*

Redemptionsong said:

Bible Student,
The meaning of the expression 'between two evenings' is disputed, but I believe you have opted for the wrong interpretation.

...

Click to expand...

Why would there be a confusion over - between two evenings?


13th STARTS around 6PM EVENING - through morning/daylight to around 5:59PM.


14th STARTS from 6PM EVENING ...


SO - between the two evenings is the 13Th's daylight hours!


The Sacrifice was made during daylight.




*

Ingledsva,
I agree with your literal understanding of the expression 'between two evenings'. But I disagree on the day. If the Passover is a reference to the SACRIFICE, as opposed to the SEDER (meal), then I understand the sacrifice to have taken place on 14 Nisan and the SEDER on the 15 Nisan. As metis says, this appears to have been the traditional Jewish understanding and practice. That is why the Jewish seder today is celebrated on 15 Nisan and not the 14 Nisan, which was preparation day.

As for the amount of time it would take to kill thousands of kids (lambs and young goats!)....I have no real picture of the numbers of Levites and priests involved in the process. But the reason that the Temple was the focus of the pilgrim festivals was that it should be the place of sacrifice. At Passover one 'kid' was sacrificed for each group of adults, from 10-20 in number.

Bible Student,
I'm sorry you've decided to leave the discussion...you'll be welcomed back if you change your mind!

And what evidence do you have that it was literally said ??.

psychoslice,
I'll try to avoid the word 'literally' in future. Let's just say, between one evening and the next evening; sundown to sundown. This is based on the periods of the day, Genesis 1:5.

Ingledsva, I was interested to read in Josephus' 'Wars of the Jews' that in 70CE, when Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, there must have been between 2 and 3 million celebrants attending the Passover. He says that this figure is based on the number of sacrifices, which that year numbered 256,500!

I do remember seeing the arch of Titus in Rome. It shows the Roman soldiers carrying off booty from the Temple, including the sacred menorah.

Ingledsva,
I think I have a breakthrough.

In Deuteronomy 16:5-8 it says this:
'Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.'

There appear to be DIFFERENT expressions in relation to the sun, each of which must be considered carefully. One is the expression GOING DOWN. The other is when the Sun IS DOWN.

Tell me, when does the Sun START to go down? Does it not start its downward path from NOON?! So, maybe, the expression 'between the two evenings', since it is used very specifically, may refer to the period between NOON and EVENING (sundown). This would encompass the time when the sacrifices were traditionally made.

It was also the time at the crucifixion, when everything went dark (Matthew 27:45) - from noon to 3pm. On that particular day, there were two periods of darkness, one at noon and another at 6pm.

But we must add to this the twilight period, the latter part of the afternoon when the sun begins its descent over the horizon. Was it between 3pm and 5pm that the sacrifices took place?

The passage goes on to say that the roasting and eating takes place 'in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose' - in other words, a place in Jerusalem (?) where a group of between 10-20 adults would eat together. The roasting and eating would then take place during the evening, probably up until midnight, a period of six hours.

In the morning the celebrants return to their own tents or dwellings.

metis, do you see that as a reasonable explanation of the slaughtering of the paschal sacrifice between noon and the sabbath (high day)?

The final piece of the jigsaw is the meal that Jesus held ONE DAY BEFORE the Jewish Seder. Was it a passover meal?

Redemptionsong said:

Ingledsva,
I agree with your literal understanding of the expression 'between two evenings'. But I disagree on the day. If the Passover is a reference to the SACRIFICE, as opposed to the SEDER (meal), then I understand the sacrifice to have taken place on 14 Nisan and the SEDER on the 15 Nisan. As metis says, this appears to have been the traditional Jewish understanding and practice. That is why the Jewish seder today is celebrated on 15 Nisan and not the 14 Nisan, which was preparation day.

As for the amount of time it would take to kill thousands of kids (lambs and young goats!)....I have no real picture of the numbers of Levites and priests involved in the process. But the reason that the Temple was the focus of the pilgrim festivals was that it should be the place of sacrifice. At Passover one 'kid' was sacrificed for each group of adults, from 10-20 in number.

Click to expand...

LOL! I'm as confused as everyone else. You could be right.


The texts make it even more confusing.


Mat says - Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

Mat 26:5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.


Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover?

If they are calling prep day - the first day of the festival? That would mean the festival had at least 8 days, instead of 7.

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover.

Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.


SO it says - He celebrated Passover - before he was killed.


How could they legally kill, and then burry him, on Passover, or during the following festival days?


Matt. says Jesus ate the Passover meal first (after dark,) - then went to the hill to pray (middle of the night) - taken away while still dark - and killed in the daylight. That would make it still the same day, until around 6PM (dark.)


It says Jesus ate the Passover meal, and THEN was crucified and died later the same day (daylight hours.)


The Jewish sacrifice was obviously BEFORE the meal.


How would they get away with a crucifixion, and burial, on Passover?


Then it says -


Mat 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Mat 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Mat 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.


WHAT? They told us he ate the Passover meal! We are beyond preparation.


Confusion-confusion


Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.


That means still the Sabbath.

*

Ingledsva,
I feel that the key to answering these difficulties must lie in the text of the TANAKH.

It struck me as significant that Moses only ever participated in ONE passover, the first. The commandment of God was that they should not 'keep this service' until they entered Canaan. (See Exodus 13:3-5)
Moses died before the Israelites crossed the Jordan.

In Joshua 5:10 it says; [After entering Cannan]
'And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.
And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.'

Before this passover was possible, Joshua commanded that all the younger generation be circumcised because this had not happened in the wilderness. One of the stipulations of God was that only a male who had been circumcised could participate in the passover feast.

I understand the passage in Joshua to say that the passover SACRIFICE was made on 14 Nisan, with the feast following in the evening (15 Nisan). This was the first day of unleavened bread. On this day the Israelites ate the old corn. On the second day of passover, the 16 Nisan, the Israelites started to eat the new corn, as they are commanded to do AT THE FEAST OF WEEKS. This would have been the firstfruits of the barley harvest.

This is also the reason for believing that in Matthew 28:1 it SHOULD NOT say 'the first day of the week' but 'the first of weeks' ie the first day of the counting of the new corn up until the wheat harvest at Pentecost.

Ingledsva,
As Bible Student was arguing earlier, there are EIGHT days to the festival if you include preparation day. But, as I was trying to point out from scripture, there are only SEVEN days of EATING unleavened bread.

There is also a need to look very closely at the text of the New Testament. The translators are not always well versed in the Hebrew practices or scriptures, because they often insert words without good reason.

Look at Matthew 26:2. There are three words in italics. They are 'the feast of'. In other words, the translators have added these three words. They SHOULD NOT BE THERE. It makes all the difference to the meaning, because the SACRIFICE took place on 14 Nisan and the FEAST on the 15 Nisan!
The same is true of Matthew 26:17. This should read, 'Now the first of unleavened bread ...' which must be a reference to preparation day.

I'd trust the scriptures before traditions. "Traditions" lead to major so-called "Christian" holidays named after the chief goddess of the Babylonian Mystery religion, etc....

(Easter/Ishtar/Astarte)

The problem i see here is people are thinking that the Jewish traditions where and still are Torah complaint..

Jesus and His disciples prepared the passover meal and ate it at the correct time before the morning of the 14th of Nisan.

The Jews prepared the passover meal on the end of the 14th of Nisan and ate it on the night of the 15th of Nisan. But in the Torah it and on the original Passover in Egypt they where told to fully consume the lamb during the night of the 14th of Nisan.

Exodus 12
p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.


This is what Jesus and His disciples did. They ate it on the evening of the 14th of Nisan. But the Jews who had for some reason decided to change things so that they would prepare the passover at the end of the 14th of Nisan in the late afternoon to eat it after sundown.. Now once the sun went down it was then the 15th of Nisan. So they ate their passover meal one night late.

Adstar,
This is why I am coming to the conclusion that there must have been TWO passover days, both of them legitimate.

Once the Temple was built in Jerusalem, all males were required to take a pilgrimage to the city at Passover. There would have been thousands of sacrifices taking place at the Temple by priests and Levites. It is quite unreasonable to suppose that the slaughter, preparation and eating, could all occur after the sun had gone down on 14 Nisan - and before midnight. When one looks at the Gospel of John, we also see that Jesus spent a long time teaching after the supper before washing the feet of the disciples, singing psalms, and heading off to Gethsemane.

What is noticeable is that there is no mention of the paschal sacrifice before the Last Supper. Even during the meal there is no mention of meat, only unleavened bread and wine. Am I correct?

Jesus is also called 'our passover [sacrifice]' in 1 Corinthians 5:7. This means his death was a passover SACRIFICE, and occurred on the day of preparation to fulfil the law. Now the sacrifice does not occur after the feast! There must have been another feast after the crucifixion, which was the evening of 15 Nisan.

So we appear to have TWO passovers, if the Last Supper was a genuine passover meal. It certainly has many of the hallmarks of being a seder.

Etritonakin,
I agree that the scriptures should be trusted before tradition. However, the big difference between the traditions of the Jews and those of Christians is that the traditions of the Jews are MORE TRUSTWORTHY! If you have ever read the discussions in the Talmud you will know that all the words of scripture are pored over with incredible diligence and care. All you have to do today is look at the treatment of the Torah scrolls in the synagogue. The tradition amongst Jews lies in the Law being God's inerrant word.

Maybe because Christian tradition has been based on LOVE and not Law, there has been less urgency about ensuring that every letter is accurately understood.

Had Christians paid more attention to the Jewish traditions and scriptures they might not have established so many false traditions of their own. I'm thinking first and foremost about the three pilgrim festivals, each of which were fulfilled exactly in the life of Jesus Christ.