Rejected Princesses

lewisnotmiller · Oct 10, 2014

As many of you might know, I have a couple of little girls, and they're both fairly well obsessed with Disney princesses.
Whilst some of you might cringe (I know I do...), they watch as many of the old Disney movies as the new ones, so the portrayal of females is not empowering.

But I came across this website, and found it pretty interesting. Cartoon princesses, history and some positive role models?

Was interested in your opinions anyway. I'm new at this gender sensitivity thing. Or any sort of sensitivity thing. Ahem...

Rejected Princesses

MysticSang'ha · Oct 10, 2014

lewisnotmiller said:
As many of you might know, I have a couple of little girls, and they're both fairly well obsessed with Disney princesses.
Whilst some of you might cringe (I know I do...), they watch as many of the old Disney movies as the new ones, so the portrayal of females is not empowering.

But I came across this website, and found it pretty interesting. Cartoon princesses, history and some positive role models?

Was interested in your opinions anyway. I'm new at this gender sensitivity thing. Or any sort of sensitivity thing. Ahem...

Rejected Princesses

So. ****ing. AWESOME. :clap2:

Buttercup · Oct 10, 2014

lewisnotmiller said:
As many of you might know, I have a couple of little girls, and they're both fairly well obsessed with Disney princesses.
Whilst some of you might cringe (I know I do...), they watch as many of the old Disney movies as the new ones, so the portrayal of females is not empowering.

But I came across this website, and found it pretty interesting. Cartoon princesses, history and some positive role models?

Was interested in your opinions anyway. I'm new at this gender sensitivity thing. Or any sort of sensitivity thing. Ahem...

Rejected Princesses

Great blog!! :yes:

I'm sure you could find stories of many of these women of history in kid friendly formats. What a fun time that would be to spend with your girls. Help them find their true Girl Power!!!

Hypatia: Philosophy for Kids | KidsThinkAboutIt! Philosophy for Kids, Books, Apps & Teacher Resources

Kilgore Trout · Oct 10, 2014

Great stuff. It's always nice to see a focus on empowerment and accomplishent over victimhood and blame.

lewisnotmiller · Oct 10, 2014

Buttercup said:
Great blog!! :yes:

I'm sure you could find stories of many of these women of history in kid friendly formats. What a fun time that would be to spend with your girls. Help them find their true Girl Power!!!

Hypatia: Philosophy for Kids | KidsThinkAboutIt! Philosophy for Kids, Books, Apps & Teacher Resources

I force my history books on 'em occasionally. I just use the photos and tell them some basics.
My eldest was so excited to see a photo of the real Pocohontas. I didn't have the heart to tell her too much of the true back story, but baby steps.

My youngest was excited (bizarrely) by a picture of Geronimo, since there's a pop song she likes which says it. Welp, she's 4, so just the fact that she's excited over some old photos is something, I guess...lol

But all in all I'm pretty determined to find them positive role models, and DIVERSE role models. They know I'm interested in history and sport, so I kinda have a natural leaning towards those areas, but obviously I'm going to have to work out THEIR natural leanings.

God help me if it's mainstream pop music.

*shudders*

lewisnotmiller · Oct 10, 2014

Kilgore Trout said:
Great stuff. It's always nice to see a focus on empowerment and accomplishent over victimhood and blame.

Quite apart from any feminist issues, I think young people today don't receive enough consistently positive messages.
Instead they get fed some rubbish about 'everyone winning' which poorly prepares them for life.

So role models from reality are good, since they all have suffered through adversity, but been able to accomplish things despite it.

I made sure my eldest understood we had a female prime minister when we did. I could care less if she wants to have a 'powerful' job or not, but the whole point is to make her aware she has choices, but that all choices will involve both adversity and opportunity.

Kilgore Trout · Oct 10, 2014

lewisnotmiller said:
Quite apart from any feminist issues, I think young people today don't receive enough consistently positive messages.
Instead they get fed some rubbish about 'everyone winning' which poorly prepares them for life.

So role models from reality are good, since they all have suffered through adversity, but been able to accomplish things despite it.

I made sure my eldest understood we had a female prime minister when we did. I could care less if she wants to have a 'powerful' job or not, but the whole point is to make her aware she has choices, but that all choices will involve both adversity and opportunity.

All well said.

Buttercup · Oct 10, 2014

lewisnotmiller said:
Quite apart from any feminist issues, I think young people today don't receive enough consistently positive messages.
Instead they get fed some rubbish about 'everyone winning' which poorly prepares them for life.

This "everyone wins" philosophy has been going on since at least the 80's, perhaps before. I didn't like it then and still don't like it. I remember when my kids were in elementary school and the district wanted to do away with letter grades to make learning assessments more "fair" to all. Naturally, parents raised a fit. The school district went ahead with the newer bohemian method anyway.

The ambiguous method of grading lasted a few years and then was turned back to letter grades once testing showed the kids lost impetus to excel. A good lesson learned.

Sunstone · Oct 10, 2014

Some years ago -- pre-internet -- I became interested in the issue of "everybody wins" because a client of mine at the time was a national teacher's association. I discovered there had been a few studies which showed that some kids are motivated by competition with other kids, while some other kids are demotivated by competition with other kids. Bottom line: It's difficult to satisfy everyone. Either you motivate the kids who are motivated by competition, while demotivating the others, or you motivate the kids who are motivated by cooperation, while demotivating the ones motivated by competition. Traditionally, you do the former.

lewisnotmiller · Oct 10, 2014

Sunstone said:
Some years ago -- pre-internet -- I became interested in the issue of "everybody wins" because a client of mine at the time was a national teacher's association. I discovered there had been a few studies which showed that some kids are motivated by competition with other kids, while some other kids are demotivated by competition with other kids. Bottom line: It's difficult to satisfy everyone. Either you motivate the kids who are motivated by competition, while demotivating the others, or you motivate the kids who are motivated by cooperation, while demotivating the ones motivated by competition. Traditionally, you do the former.

I've looked at it a fair bit too, back when I was teaching.
There's definitely a risk that too much competition demotivates certain personality types.

BUT...a mix of competition and non-competition is better all-round than no competition (imho). And importantly, motivation of students is NOT the only reason for that.

Students are now explicitly being taught 'resillience' skills here. Things like how to let go of frustration and anger. How to move on. Competition is great for this, if it's done in a safe and supportive environment.

MysticSang'ha · Oct 10, 2014

Sunstone said:
Some years ago -- pre-internet -- I became interested in the issue of "everybody wins" because a client of mine at the time was a national teacher's association. I discovered there had been a few studies which showed that some kids are motivated by competition with other kids, while some other kids are demotivated by competition with other kids. Bottom line: It's difficult to satisfy everyone. Either you motivate the kids who are motivated by competition, while demotivating the others, or you motivate the kids who are motivated by cooperation, while demotivating the ones motivated by competition. Traditionally, you do the former.

This is true. We can thank Malthus for the scarcity ideology that we all accept to be an absolute, and that competition is necessary for survival. It's why IMO it's so popular.

I've found that the two camps of students that you mentioned do exist. It's why I incorporated two "tracks" of programs at the studio...competitive dance and concert dance. Both with different approaches and goal-setting, as well as the language used to motivate the students to excel.

Riverwolf · Oct 10, 2014

BOUDICA!?!? REALLY??!!

...I'm sorry, but I think she's a historical figure that Disney should never touch. She may seem empowering, but... the only way Disney could tell her story at all would be to severely misrepresent history, and that's something I'm against in virtually all forms. Pocahontas was empowering; that movie was also offensive on so many levels that whatever empowerment may have been there was basically drowned out(on top of just being... not very good).

Beyond that, many of those others are very interesting, and others just downright awesome.

lewisnotmiller · Oct 10, 2014

Well...I think the point is that Disney wouldnt touch any of these historically/mythologically significant women, and if they did it would be for a catchy name rather than the actusl story of their life.

Disney is best writing their own stuff rather than butchering history. I think this offers a nice counterpoint to the traditional historical narrative, and is done in a fashion that makes it fairly accessible.

Plus it made me laugh rather than cringe, which is generally a good sign.

Sunstone · Oct 10, 2014

I love the "rejected princesses"! They've got way more character than the Disney variety.

Sunstone · Oct 10, 2014

lewisnotmiller said:
Well...I think the point is that Disney wouldnt touch any of these historically/mythologically significant women, and if they did it would be for a catchy name rather than the actusl story of their life.

I think Disney is very shrewd at telling stories that offend the least number of people, and hence, have the potential to gain the largest possible audience. They're sort of the McDonald's of story telling. They don't make the best hamburger, just the most popular.

savagewind · Oct 10, 2014

The mother is dead in many stories Disney produces. Maybe most of them.

savagewind · Oct 10, 2014

People do google "disney movies where the mother is dead".

Why Are All the Cartoon Mothers Dead? - Sarah Boxer - The Atlantic

The cartoonist Alison Bechdel once issued a challenge to the film industry with her now-famous test: show me a movie with at least two women in it who talk to each other about something besides a man. Here’s another challenge: show me an animated kids’ movie that has a named mother in it who lives until the credits roll. Guess what? Not many pass the test. And when I see a movie that does (Brave, Coraline, A Bug’s Life, Antz, The Incredibles, The Lion King, Fantastic Mr. Fox), I have to admit that I am shocked … and, well, just a tad wary.

lewisnotmiller · Oct 14, 2014

savagewind said:
People do google "disney movies where the mother is dead".

Why Are All the Cartoon Mothers Dead? - Sarah Boxer - The Atlantic

Weirdly, I've never really considered this.
But there are a lot of missing mothers. Fathers too, but to a lesser extent.

lewisnotmiller · Oct 15, 2014

MysticSang'ha said:
This is true. We can thank Malthus for the scarcity ideology that we all accept to be an absolute, and that competition is necessary for survival. It's why IMO it's so popular.

I've found that the two camps of students that you mentioned do exist. It's why I incorporated two "tracks" of programs at the studio...competitive dance and concert dance. Both with different approaches and goal-setting, as well as the language used to motivate the students to excel.

Honestly, I think the key words in this are 'goal-setting'.
Whilst I'm competitive to some degree, I taught plenty of kids who were not. That's all fine. But somehow we need to teach them resilience. It's something that is being done poorly at the moment, in my opinion.

By setting goals, and working to them, we learn to move through adversity. How to problem solve, and work towards longer term goals.

So I'd like to adjust my earlier position slightly, for clarity. I don't think competition is necessary, but at some point there needs to be a chance to fail. To fall over.

Is it too cheesy to say 'Only by falling do we learn how to stand up'?
Yeah. It probably is. I won't say it then.

*zips lips*

Alceste · Oct 22, 2014

I love that website. Thanks for sharing!

Rejected Princesses

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