metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You're more than welcome, and I very much appreciate your attitude of openness.
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Three days, three nights...
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
You're more than welcome, and I very much appreciate your attitude of openness.
Nada
#
No.Everything was done on the 14th.Luke 22:7,8. The first day of the Unleavened Bread now arrived, on which the Passover sacrifice must be offered 8 so Jesus sent Peter and John, saying: “Go and get the Passover ready for us to eat.”
Remember this whole thing was sometimes called the passover by itself, and sometimes called the Festival of unfermented cakes all together.Some render it first day of unleavened bread.Either way it is the period of 8 full days of unleavened bread, but most importantly the beginning of the passover, when the lamb sacrifice is prepared and cooked.This is done on Nisan 14th. The 14th is the day of the lamb being eaten, and the next 7 days, is technically, the Festival of unleavened bread.
The preparation commenced on thursday at 6pm Nisan 14th.Twilight.....
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Adstar,
Thank you.
But, may I suggest, for the sake of clarity and accuracy that we:
1) Avoid use of pagan days (Monday, Tuesday etc) and stick to Jewish calculations of time.
2) Include all four Gospels, and other scriptural references, in the pool of sources. I notice that, in your list of references, you have avoided all mention of Mark and John on this issue. Yet they provide material that is essential to a COMPLETE understanding of the crucifixion and resurrection.
Thank you.
But, may I suggest, for the sake of clarity and accuracy that we:
1) Avoid use of pagan days (Monday, Tuesday etc) and stick to Jewish calculations of time.
2) Include all four Gospels, and other scriptural references, in the pool of sources. I notice that, in your list of references, you have avoided all mention of Mark and John on this issue. Yet they provide material that is essential to a COMPLETE understanding of the crucifixion and resurrection.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Bible Student,
If the preparation day is 14 Nisan at twilight, and the Passover Seder follows straight after, on 14 Nisan, during the evening, then the preparation has finished by morning.
How do you account for the passages in John that say:
John 19:14, 'And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!'
John 19:31, ' The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.'
John 19:42, 'There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.'
It seems a bit odd that AFTER eating the passover, they should still say that it was 'the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:'. In other words, they were still preparing for the passover AFTER the passover was FINISHED.
It would also be strange to call the whole day 'the preparation' if it was the same day as the passover. Why not call it 'the Passover'?
It is also clear from these passages, and others, that NO WORK (apart from food preparation) was to be done on the days of holy convocation, or 'high days'.
If the preparation day is 14 Nisan at twilight, and the Passover Seder follows straight after, on 14 Nisan, during the evening, then the preparation has finished by morning.
How do you account for the passages in John that say:
John 19:14, 'And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!'
John 19:31, ' The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.'
John 19:42, 'There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.'
It seems a bit odd that AFTER eating the passover, they should still say that it was 'the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:'. In other words, they were still preparing for the passover AFTER the passover was FINISHED.
It would also be strange to call the whole day 'the preparation' if it was the same day as the passover. Why not call it 'the Passover'?
It is also clear from these passages, and others, that NO WORK (apart from food preparation) was to be done on the days of holy convocation, or 'high days'.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
metis,
Just out of interest, how many times does the expression 'between the evenings' (as in Exodus 12:6) occur in the Hebrew of the Tanakh?
Just out of interest, how many times does the expression 'between the evenings' (as in Exodus 12:6) occur in the Hebrew of the Tanakh?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Using those exact words in Hebrew or implied? By the latter I mean that Genesis uses the language such as this, the first part that is periodically repeated: "there was evening and there was morning, one day". Gen. 1[5] Therefore, a day ("yom") starts at sundown and runs through to sundown the next day.
Nada
#
I can see how it might seem odd, but it's actually very simple brother
Here is something to better explain this.
Preparation. At John 19:14, the apostle John, in the midst of his description of the final part of Jesus trial before Pilate, says: Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour [of the daytime, between 11:00 a.m. and noon]. This, of course, was after the time of the Passover meal, which had been eaten the night before. Similar expressions are found at verses 31 and 42. Here the Greek word pa·ra·skeu·e′ is translated preparation. This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, which, in this instance, was a great one, namely, not only a Sabbath by virtue of being Nisan 15, the first day of the actual Festival of Unfermented Cakes, but also a weekly Sabbath. This is understandable, since, as already stated, Passover was sometimes used to refer to the entire festival.Joh 19:31; see PREPARATION.
Passover — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
בין הערבים occurs about a dozen times in the Tanakh, all of which occur in the Torah.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would have said that but I can't count that high.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Rabbi0 and metis,
Do these references only occur in relation to Pesach?
Also, is there any historical evidence that Jews were celebrating the Passover Seder on 15 Nisan (in the first century CE)?
Do these references only occur in relation to Pesach?
Also, is there any historical evidence that Jews were celebrating the Passover Seder on 15 Nisan (in the first century CE)?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I can see how it might seem odd, but it's actually very simple brother
Here is something to better explain this.
“Preparation.” At John 19:14, the apostle John, in the midst of his description of the final part of Jesus’ trial before Pilate, says: “Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour [of the daytime, between 11:00 a.m. and noon].” This, of course, was after the time of the Passover meal, which had been eaten the night before. Similar expressions are found at verses 31 and 42. Here the Greek word pa·ra·skeu·e′ is translated “preparation.” This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, which, in this instance, was “a great one,” namely, not only a Sabbath by virtue of being Nisan 15, the first day of the actual Festival of Unfermented Cakes, but also a weekly Sabbath. This is understandable, since, as already stated, “Passover” was sometimes used to refer to the entire festival.—Joh 19:31; see PREPARATION.
Passover — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Why would they prep for the Passover - AFTER the Passover?
Unger says the Preparation, including the sacrifice, was on the 13th Nisan, and the Passover sacrifice was cooked and eaten on the 14th Nisan.
These would be on the same day in our definition of days.
The morning up to dark would still be the 13Th, and from dark on - the 14th Nisan.
So - trek to the Temple and the Sacrifice - during daylight hours (13th,) and cooking and meal after it became dark (14Th.)
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Bible Student,
In the 'Wars of the Jews' by Josephus, he writes, 'upon the coming of their feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour to the eleventh....' (War, VI, IX, 3)
Josephus is a pretty reliable historian, with an intimate knowledge of Jewish practice. He seems to think that the lambs were sacrificed from 3pm to 5pm. This would exactly match the hour at which Jesus died, making him the fulfilment of the law.
Where do you get the idea that the sacrifices were made after sundown? If it's based on the word 'twilight', where do you find your definition of what constitutes 'twilight'?
In the 'Wars of the Jews' by Josephus, he writes, 'upon the coming of their feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour to the eleventh....' (War, VI, IX, 3)
Josephus is a pretty reliable historian, with an intimate knowledge of Jewish practice. He seems to think that the lambs were sacrificed from 3pm to 5pm. This would exactly match the hour at which Jesus died, making him the fulfilment of the law.
Where do you get the idea that the sacrifices were made after sundown? If it's based on the word 'twilight', where do you find your definition of what constitutes 'twilight'?
roger1440
I do stuff
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Bible Student,
I think you're right to say that Passover was the same as 'the preparation day', but wrong to think that the seder was eaten on the evening of the 14 Nisan. The Seder was eaten on the 15 Nisan, the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread. This was a high day, a sabbath.
The second day of Passover was then 16 Nisan, which was the FIRST OF WEEKS, the time when the firstfruits of the barley harvest were taken to the temple. The wave offering was not made by the priest until the evening, which is when I believe Jesus was resurrected. This is the evening of 17 Nisan, which fits tidily with the days of the festival.
If one adds up the time from the death of Jesus on the 14 Nisan (3pm) we also arrive at 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS in the tomb. This fulfils the sign of Jonah.
I think you're right to say that Passover was the same as 'the preparation day', but wrong to think that the seder was eaten on the evening of the 14 Nisan. The Seder was eaten on the 15 Nisan, the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread. This was a high day, a sabbath.
The second day of Passover was then 16 Nisan, which was the FIRST OF WEEKS, the time when the firstfruits of the barley harvest were taken to the temple. The wave offering was not made by the priest until the evening, which is when I believe Jesus was resurrected. This is the evening of 17 Nisan, which fits tidily with the days of the festival.
If one adds up the time from the death of Jesus on the 14 Nisan (3pm) we also arrive at 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS in the tomb. This fulfils the sign of Jonah.
Nada
#
I get the idea from God's Word in the holy scriptures.Like I have shown you numerous times over and over again.It says the lamb is to be kept from the 10th until the 14th of Nisan.It does not become Nisan 14th until 6pm.This is the time known as twilight when the sun starts going down.It then turns dark at around 7:20 pm.This is what is referred to as the two evenings.
There are Jews who practice the passover according to this time standard,which is the correct one.There are also Jews who do it according to another way.Here is something to help you to understand.
What is meant by the expression between the two evenings?
The Israelites measured their day from sundown to sundown. So Passover day would begin at sundown at the end of the 13th day of Abib (Nisan). The animal was to be slaughtered between the two evenings. (Ex 12:6) There are differences of opinion as to the exact time meant. According to some scholars, as well as the Karaite Jews and Samaritans, this is the time between sunset and deep twilight. On the other hand, the Pharisees and the Rabbinists considered the first evening to be when the sun began to descend and the second evening to be the real sunset. Due to this latter view the rabbis hold that the lamb was slaughtered in the latter part of the 14th, not at its start, and therefore that the Passover meal was actually eaten on Nisan 15.
On this point Professors Keil and Delitzsch say: Different opinions have prevailed among the Jews from a very early date as to the precise time intended. Aben Ezra agrees with the Caraites and Samaritans in taking the first evening to be the time when the sun sinks below the horizon, and the second the time of total darkness; in which case, between the two evenings would be from 6 oclock to 7.20. . . . According to the rabbinical idea, the time when the sun began to descend, viz. from 3 to 5 oclock, was the first evening, and sunset the second; so that between the two evenings was from 3 to 6 oclock. Modern expositors have very properly decided in favour of the view held by Aben Ezra and the custom adopted by the Caraites and Samaritans.Commentary on the Old Testament, 1973, Vol. I, The Second Book of Moses, p. 12; see DAY.
Passover — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Nada
#
You seem to be confused.Read what I sent you in the other comment below this one
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
You seem to be confused.Read what I sent you in the other comment below this one
Again - Unger says the prep including the Sacrifice was done during daylight on 13 Nisan, and a couple of hours later at dark - 14 Nisan - the sacrifice was cooked and eaten.
He says the 15th is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread.
So - 13th (with light fading) kill the Sacrifice.
On - 14th Feast of Passover.
And - 15th Feast of Unleavened Bread (First day.)
1587 Geneva -Numbers 9:5 And they kept the Passeouer in the fouretenth day of the first moneth at euen in the wildernesse of Sinai: according to all that the Lord had comanded Moses, so did ye children of Israel.
Think about this - The Sacrifice was killed at the Temple - and they had to get home in time to mark the 14th with blood on the Lintels, and hold the Passover meal.
So we end up with that vague "between" - technically they killed the Sacrifice on the 13th - ( in the murky "between" 13-14) - rushed home - used the blood to mark the posts and lintels with the blood soaked hyssop - as the beginning of Passover (14th) - at dark (6PM?) - and then ate the Passover meal - which commemorates that PASS-OVER - because the blood was there to make God pass them over.
The blood had to be put on first - to show whom were to be PASSED OVER.
So obviously the Sacrifice had to be killed before Passover.
He says the first (15th Nisan) and seventh days (21st Nisan) of the Feast of Unleavened Bread were also special - and they held special Convocations on those days.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Yep, Sacrifice killed on the 13th - "between, dusky" - so they could get home (from the Temple) in time to put the blood on the doorposts and lintels - at the change to 14 Nisan (dark, 6PM?) - as during the actual event - so God can SEE the blood and they would be Passed-Over.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Bible Student,
The meaning of the expression 'between two evenings' is disputed, but I believe you have opted for the wrong interpretation.
The Speaker's commentary suggests the following:[paraphrase]
The ancient custom of the Hebrews was to slay the paschal lamb immediately after the the offering of the daily sacrifice, which on the day of passover took place a little earlier than usual, between 2pm and 3pm. This would allow about two hours and a half for slaying and preparing all the lambs. It is clear that they would not wait until sunset, at which time the evening meal would take place. This interpretation is supported by Rashi, Kimchi, Bochart, Lightfoot, Clericus, and Patrick.
The weakness of the other interpretation, is that the interval between sunset and total darkness is a short time in the East, and insufficient for the work.
Rosenmuller shows from the Talmud that the twilight, as strickly defined, did not last longer than it would take to walk half a mile ie. about ten minutes.
This leads me to think that the slaying of the lambs definitely took place on the 14 Nisan in the afternoon. The day is therefore called the PREPARATION. It is ALSO called the PASSOVER because that is when the slaying of the lamb occurs. The meal, or Seder, does not take place until the evening, which is then the beginning of a new day, the 15 NISAN. The 15 Nisan is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread and a holy convocation, or sabbath.
Inglesva, this would also suggest that Unger has mistakenly called the 13 Nisan the day of preparation, when, in fact it's the 14 Nisan.
The meaning of the expression 'between two evenings' is disputed, but I believe you have opted for the wrong interpretation.
The Speaker's commentary suggests the following:[paraphrase]
The ancient custom of the Hebrews was to slay the paschal lamb immediately after the the offering of the daily sacrifice, which on the day of passover took place a little earlier than usual, between 2pm and 3pm. This would allow about two hours and a half for slaying and preparing all the lambs. It is clear that they would not wait until sunset, at which time the evening meal would take place. This interpretation is supported by Rashi, Kimchi, Bochart, Lightfoot, Clericus, and Patrick.
The weakness of the other interpretation, is that the interval between sunset and total darkness is a short time in the East, and insufficient for the work.
Rosenmuller shows from the Talmud that the twilight, as strickly defined, did not last longer than it would take to walk half a mile ie. about ten minutes.
This leads me to think that the slaying of the lambs definitely took place on the 14 Nisan in the afternoon. The day is therefore called the PREPARATION. It is ALSO called the PASSOVER because that is when the slaying of the lamb occurs. The meal, or Seder, does not take place until the evening, which is then the beginning of a new day, the 15 NISAN. The 15 Nisan is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread and a holy convocation, or sabbath.
Inglesva, this would also suggest that Unger has mistakenly called the 13 Nisan the day of preparation, when, in fact it's the 14 Nisan.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
My understanding of the days covering the Preparation, Passover, and Feast of Unleavened Bread is as follows:
10 Nisan - Jesus' Triumphal Entry; Judas paid 30 pieces of silver for 'the Lamb'.(See Zechariah 11:12)
11 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
12 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
13 Nisan - Jesus sends two disciples to 'make ready the passover'
14 Nisan - Last Supper, Gethsemane, Trial, Crucifixion (3pm). Lambs prepared by 6pm.
15 Nisan - Feast of Unleavened bread. Seder. Sabbath (High Holy day)
16 Nisan - First day of weeks. Omer of barley taken to the Temple. Wave offering in the evening.
17 Nisan - third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty.
18 Nisan - fourth day of Unleavened Bread
19 Nisan - fifth day of Unleavened Bread
20 Nisan - sixth day of Unleavened Bread
21 Nisan - seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Holy Convocation.
10 Nisan - Jesus' Triumphal Entry; Judas paid 30 pieces of silver for 'the Lamb'.(See Zechariah 11:12)
11 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
12 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
13 Nisan - Jesus sends two disciples to 'make ready the passover'
14 Nisan - Last Supper, Gethsemane, Trial, Crucifixion (3pm). Lambs prepared by 6pm.
15 Nisan - Feast of Unleavened bread. Seder. Sabbath (High Holy day)
16 Nisan - First day of weeks. Omer of barley taken to the Temple. Wave offering in the evening.
17 Nisan - third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty.
18 Nisan - fourth day of Unleavened Bread
19 Nisan - fifth day of Unleavened Bread
20 Nisan - sixth day of Unleavened Bread
21 Nisan - seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Holy Convocation.