Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

sojourner · Oct 19, 2014

Sonofason said:
Of course. Nevertheless, I believe it is important to try to answer those questions when they arise.

Really, it's more important to wrestle with the questions than to answer them. living with questions (as opposed to putting them away with a quick answer) usually prompt more pertinent questions, challenging us to grow.

sojourner · Oct 19, 2014

allfoak said:
It is an answer...

The bible is not designed to hold any truth necessarily.
It is designed to be a spiritual catalyst.
The truth that exists can be found in yourself with the help of the bible.

maybe there are otherperspectives that you are more polarized to that give you the help you need to find that truth within yourself.

learn all perspectives,
be held by no perspective.
Wholeness is achieved when all perspectives become one perspective.

The bible is designed to be a repository.

CG Didymus · Oct 19, 2014

Sonofason said:
I think your asking good questions. Now answer them.

I can answer them with what I think is going on, but you won't like it. I think Genesis is something made up from traditions. I don't think that those stories are literal historical facts. I don't think that God told Moses the stories in Genesis. So now, what's your answers?

CG Didymus · Oct 19, 2014

Sonofason said:
Of course. Nevertheless, I believe it is important to try to answer those questions when they arise.

It has always been difficult for people to question things in the Bible. Sometimes it cost them their lives. Today we have the freedom to question it without to much fear from over zealous believers. So, because of this freedom, sometimes we go overboard on trying to tear the Bible apart. But Christianity has in many ways forced its beliefs on the world, so I think it's very fair, and long over due, to test those beliefs Christians hold. If Christianity is true... If the Bible is true, then Genesis is the perfect place to start. If it holds up to scrutiny then fine. If it doesn't then what is true about the Bible and Christianity? So first off, is it literal? If not, then what is it? Myth? Legends? What?

Sonofason · Oct 19, 2014

sojourner said:
Really, it's more important to wrestle with the questions than to answer them. living with questions (as opposed to putting them away with a quick answer) usually prompt more pertinent questions, challenging us to grow.

I will agree, our first answers are not always our best answers.

Sonofason · Oct 19, 2014

CG Didymus said:
I can answer them with what I think is going on, but you won't like it. I think Genesis is something made up from traditions. I don't think that those stories are literal historical facts. I don't think that God told Moses the stories in Genesis. So now, what's your answers?

I'd say your glass is half empty.

Sonofason · Oct 19, 2014

CG Didymus said:
It has always been difficult for people to question things in the Bible. Sometimes it cost them their lives. Today we have the freedom to question it without to much fear from over zealous believers. So, because of this freedom, sometimes we go overboard on trying to tear the Bible apart. But Christianity has in many ways forced its beliefs on the world, so I think it's very fair, and long over due, to test those beliefs Christians hold. If Christianity is true... If the Bible is true, then Genesis is the perfect place to start. If it holds up to scrutiny then fine. If it doesn't then what is true about the Bible and Christianity? So first off, is it literal? If not, then what is it? Myth? Legends? What?

First off, Legends and Myths are not necessarily false.
Some myths may indeed be completely false, while others may not be false.

A myth is an unverifiable account of history.
A myth can be a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence.
Myth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It is quite possible for something to have existed for which no evidence remains. Such a thing's existence would be unverifiable, and therefore termed a myth.

Therefore, I would suggest that the Creation story is, at this point in time, a literal myth.

Thief · Oct 19, 2014

allfoak said:
There is only one way to answer this question it seems.
With a big resounding :

[

I have been told ( don't fully understand it, if i did i would be much more advanced),
that the scriptures especially the least corrupted ones, are written in the language of the soul.

The only way i know how to describe it is like this:
If you have ever sat outside on a lazy summer day and watched the clouds with someone you will understand.

There is more than one picture in a cloud, everyone sees something different.
And they are fluid, like the truth is fluid, it grows along with your ability to understand.
So because the wind moves them we see many things in the same cloud as we continue to look at it.
In the same way, as we apply what we learn from the scriptures and our spirit moves us we see something different in the same thing we just read yesterday.

Trying to get someone to see a cloud from our perspective takes away the enjoyment of them discovering something for themselves.
We should apply this to the creation story and all of scripture.
We are not teachers not one of us.
We are all students of ourselves and nothing more.

The creation story like the rest of scripture must be an allegory.
It represents so many things to so many people that to take it literally would be to negate every other perspective.
I am not prepared to judge everyone else as wrong and declare myself as correct.

Well said....thank you.

and we are here to learn and become 'ourselves'.

but....heaven IS willing to judge so many as wrong.....and then condemn.
(so I've heard)

CG Didymus · Oct 19, 2014

Sonofason said:
First off, Legends and Myths are not necessarily false.
Some myths may indeed be completely false, while others may not be false.

A myth is an unverifiable account of history.
A myth can be a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence.
Myth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It is quite possible for something to have existed for which no evidence remains. Such a thing's existence would be unverifiable, and therefore termed a myth.

Therefore, I would suggest that the Creation story is, at this point in time, a literal myth.

Whatever you want to call it is fine with me. Most of us grew up in a culture that believed in the Bible. But, that doesn't make it historical fact, and that is what we are talking about. Did God walk in the garden with Adam? Was there a tree with forbidden fruit? Was there a talking serpent? Did people live for 900 plus years? Was there a world-wide flood just a few thousand years ago? For some Christians the answer has to be "yes". There can be no question.

But, what if you weren't predisposed to believing the Bible as "God's" Word? What would you be thinking while reading those stories? Wouldn't it be similar to how you look at Greek or Egyptian or Chinese mythology? Why would you even read them and think, "Wow, that's the truth. That's how the everything came to be"? Wouldn't you think some of those stories a little strange and a little beyond belief? And that is not to say there isn't an important spiritual message there, but the message is wrapped in with events that are way too farfetched to be believed, unless, before hand, you are already told that... it is the truth. And then, if you become a believer, you are told not to question and not to doubt.

greentwiga · Oct 20, 2014

CG Didymus said:
Whatever you want to call it is fine with me. Most of us grew up in a culture that believed in the Bible. But, that doesn't make it historical fact, and that is what we are talking about. Did God walk in the garden with Adam? Was there a tree with forbidden fruit? Was there a talking serpent? Did people live for 900 plus years? Was there a world-wide flood just a few thousand years ago? For some Christians the answer has to be "yes". There can be no question.

But, what if you weren't predisposed to believing the Bible as "God's" Word? What would you be thinking while reading those stories? Wouldn't it be similar to how you look at Greek or Egyptian or Chinese mythology? Why would you even read them and think, "Wow, that's the truth. That's how the everything came to be"? Wouldn't you think some of those stories a little strange and a little beyond belief? And that is not to say there isn't an important spiritual message there, but the message is wrapped in with events that are way too farfetched to be believed, unless, before hand, you are already told that... it is the truth. And then, if you become a believer, you are told not to question and not to doubt.

I grew up in an Agnostic/Atheist family. I trained and worked as a scientist. Later, I became a Christian. I was embarassed by Genesis, and avoided studying it. Later, when I threw out all the traditional interpretations, and studied it afresh, I was surprised. I found the Garden, the Flood, Sodom, The Exodus all more accurate than I thought possible. They were just not accurate in the way tradition teaches. For example, the flood was just a localized flood. The Ark was a giant reed boat, which makes it possible, unlike a wooden boat the same size. It also only held the regional animals. The spiritual messages that people have found are the same, but just enhanced a little.

I do object to the interpretations that have been used for evil. People wanted it to be a world-wide flood to justify racism. People have twisted the Garden to support oppression of women. Those have become our traditional interpretations. I reject both those interpretations because they had to ignore parts of scriptures to get to those interpretations.

CG Didymus · Oct 20, 2014

greentwiga said:
... The spiritual messages that people have found are the same, but just enhanced a little.

I do object to the interpretations that have been used for evil. People wanted it to be a world-wide flood to justify racism. People have twisted the Garden to support oppression of women. Those have become our traditional interpretations. I reject both those interpretations because they had to ignore parts of scriptures to get to those interpretations.

Well, the typical fundy Christian interpretation makes Adam's mistake the reason why sin and death entered the world. They take it as historical fact. Every person is already guilty at birth and since, they say, God requires a perfect sacrifice, no one but Jesus can pay the inherited sin debt.

That's the interpretation that concerns me the most, because it makes everybody else wrong. And, it all starts with a very literal interpretation of creation and the flood. When I was part of a fundy-type of Church there was a lot of pressure to go along with the group and accept what the Bible teachers told us was the truth. So how exactly is it going for you? I would imagine that there's lots of Christians that don't like what you're saying.

outhouse · Oct 20, 2014

greentwiga said:
I found the Garden, the Flood, Sodom, The Exodus all more accurate than I thought possible. .

Not one is accurate. They are all mythology.

. I found the Garden,

:biglaugh:

That is delusional at best.

Again plagiarized from Mesopotamian sources, and a garden they had the Israelites were using as metaphor.

the flood was just a localized flood

Correct.

Plagiarized from Sumerian sources when the Euphrates overflowed.

The Ark was a giant reed boat

Has no basis in reality, and is quite laughable.

I reject both those interpretations because they had to ignore parts of scriptures to get to those interpretations.

Hypocrite much?

Sonofason · Oct 20, 2014

CG Didymus said:
Whatever you want to call it is fine with me. Most of us grew up in a culture that believed in the Bible. But, that doesn't make it historical fact, and that is what we are talking about. Did God walk in the garden with Adam? Was there a tree with forbidden fruit? Was there a talking serpent? Did people live for 900 plus years? Was there a world-wide flood just a few thousand years ago? For some Christians the answer has to be "yes". There can be no question.

But, what if you weren't predisposed to believing the Bible as "God's" Word? What would you be thinking while reading those stories? Wouldn't it be similar to how you look at Greek or Egyptian or Chinese mythology? Why would you even read them and think, "Wow, that's the truth. That's how the everything came to be"? Wouldn't you think some of those stories a little strange and a little beyond belief? And that is not to say there isn't an important spiritual message there, but the message is wrapped in with events that are way too farfetched to be believed, unless, before hand, you are already told that... it is the truth. And then, if you become a believer, you are told not to question and not to doubt.

The Bible is historical fact, and until you prove otherwise, it will always be historical fact. There is nothing that I know of that is nonfactual in Greek, Egyptian and Chinese mythologies. If there is, please state your unsubstantiated claim.

allfoak · Oct 20, 2014

Sonofason said:
The Bible is historical fact, and until you prove otherwise, it will always be historical fact. There is nothing that I know of that is nonfactual in Greek, Egyptian and Chinese mythologies. If there is, please state your unsubstantiated claim.

What you have been taught is the truth.
You have been taught the "Testimony of Christ"

Understand that while it is the truth, your own Bible says that what you have been taught is the "milk" of the Gospel and that you should move on from there to a better understanding.

Sonofason · Oct 20, 2014

allfoak said:
What you have been taught is the truth.
You have been taught the "Testimony of Christ"

Understand that while it is the truth, your own Bible says that what you have been taught is the "milk" of the Gospel and that you should move on from there to a better understanding.

Or what?

allfoak · Oct 20, 2014

Sonofason said:
Or what?

Really?
sorry to offend.
Your choice.

I'm just pointing out what it says.

Sonofason · Oct 20, 2014

allfoak said:
Really?
sorry to offend.
Your choice.

I'm just pointing out what it says.

Sorry, I just wanted you to see that your statement was somewhat offensive. Nevertheless, you're right; the Bible says that.

gnostic · Oct 21, 2014

sonofason said:
The Bible is historical fact, and until you prove otherwise, it will always be historical fact.

That's not the way history or fact work. If you want to prove "history" to be true, true as in "factual", then you are required to prove to true with evidences.

Without real evidences are needed, for anything to be factual. The evidences will either support any claim or refute the claim. And no evidences doesn't and never prove any claim to be true. That is why any claim should be by default be "false".

Can you understand that, sonofason?

You are free to believe in anything you like, including the bible, god, angel, prophets, Jesus, heaven, hell, etc, but, and I must stress the BUT, but you have no rights to claim what is fact or what isn't fact, unless you EVIDENCES.

dchezik · Oct 21, 2014

The problem with not taking the whole Bible literally, is that there's no way to tell what is meant literally and what is meant figuratively. It's even more confusing because some things are clearly meant figuratively. Plus the fact that if you don't like the literal meaning, you can always say, "That was meant figuratively." The fact that Christ himself frequently used figurative language complicates the matter even more. Christ at one point said, "Tear this temple down and I will rebuild it in 3 days."-- John 2:19. This confused everybody because they didn't know he was speaking figuratively about his resurrection!

allfoak · Oct 21, 2014

The way to interpret the Bible is to apply it all to yourself.
Who am I to decide what it means to someone else?

Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

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