True that! I am all for gender inclusion and diversity, but ethnies are way faster and looser than genders. Quite a few people would have to think a while before even settling on a choice.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What's a "Purple Penguin"?The gender inclusive name for boys & girls in Nebraska public schools
- Thread starter Apple Sugar
- Start date
True that! I am all for gender inclusion and diversity, but ethnies are way faster and looser than genders. Quite a few people would have to think a while before even settling on a choice.
That is not my experience, and this mentality is bothersome.
Everyone finds out who they are eventually (boy or girl on the inside/straight, lesbian-gay, or bi, or something else entirely), what's wrong with waiting for people to find out and decide that for themselves? We don't need to eliminate gender in the classroom, just because someone "might" be slightly offended at being called a boy when he feels like a girl.
This is where tolerance and teaching acceptance comes in: Once these things are taught, and we get to a point where someone boy or girl can stand up and say "I feel like x gender, and that is what I want to be called" without feeling like they are wrong, or have to be ashamed of that, then saying boys and girls in the classroom shouldn't be a problem.
There is no need for a "neutral" descriptor for people to use like penguins... It's kinda silly and offensive to people who actually do identify with the opposite gender (obviously I speak for no one in particular as I am cisgender).
Teach tolerance in the workplace/classroom/ and in the home, and then maybe we will get to place where people feel free to be who they are.
This is where tolerance and teaching acceptance comes in: Once these things are taught, and we get to a point where someone boy or girl can stand up and say "I feel like x gender, and that is what I want to be called" without feeling like they are wrong, or have to be ashamed of that, then saying boys and girls in the classroom shouldn't be a problem.
There is no need for a "neutral" descriptor for people to use like penguins... It's kinda silly and offensive to people who actually do identify with the opposite gender (obviously I speak for no one in particular as I am cisgender).
Teach tolerance in the workplace/classroom/ and in the home, and then maybe we will get to place where people feel free to be who they are.
Alceste
Vagabond
But what advantage does labeling a student a boy or a girl in school have over gender neutral nouns, like children or students? (The pamphlet doesn't suggest calling children penguins, FYI) I can't think of any. And I can think of at least one disadvantage in that it provides a subtle reinforcement of the binary attitudes toward gender kids are inundated with everywhere else.
Thinking back to my own school days, there were many times we were not only labeled with a gender, but also segregated by gender. I just don't see the point of the labeling or the segregation. Beyond making the classroom an awkward environment for non-cisgender kids, it also reinforces the attitude that women aren't suited for quite a lot of highly paid jobs, like trades, professional sports and STEM.
An opinion piece about a teacher's manual introducing the concept of gender identity into the classroom.
As a teacher in an industry that is female-dominated, and recognizes this, I don't see a problem with introducing it. I don't see the concept of the purple penguin as being an indoctrination into fighting against the Binary Establishment. I take it as an awareness into what might come up as a possibility in the near future as gender identity is more openly discussed.
I remember when I first began teaching, some 25 years ago, the very idea of anyone talking about sexual orientation was out of the question. Now, even in the small town that I teach, it's common for kids to discuss crushes on kids of the same gender or having a teacher/coach who is queer. The parents talk openly about their family members or their kids upbringing with open discussion about coming out.
As things have changed, teachers like knowing how best to approach topics that aren't quite normalized in many households so that the focus is on education while being sensitive to students who DO have this at the forefront of their minds.
It was just a few years ago when I had my first transgendered student, a transitioning woman who called herself "Angel." When I first was introduced to her, I didn't know she was transitioning and assumed she was an effeminate man. It wasn't until she was addressed as "her" in class when I noticed my own way of approaching her changed. Not better or worse, but more attentive to her identity and how she presented herself.
Now, in the local activist community, I've been approached by people who don't identify as male or female, and they're wanting to feel a part of the group without feeling "othered". It's a process I'm looking to figure out, as I will admit not knowing how best to approach it leading individually and leading the group as a whole, and this is with fellow adults! As things progress in society, my guess is that within the next generation (I'll only be in my 60s and still going strong), I'd like to know how to remain the educator within a society that recognizes the spectrum not only of orientation, but of gender identity.
So, I dunno. I think the pamphlet offers an idea. It's something to consider, not as a hard and fast rule, but a suggestion. I don't see the harm.
As a teacher in an industry that is female-dominated, and recognizes this, I don't see a problem with introducing it. I don't see the concept of the purple penguin as being an indoctrination into fighting against the Binary Establishment. I take it as an awareness into what might come up as a possibility in the near future as gender identity is more openly discussed.
I remember when I first began teaching, some 25 years ago, the very idea of anyone talking about sexual orientation was out of the question. Now, even in the small town that I teach, it's common for kids to discuss crushes on kids of the same gender or having a teacher/coach who is queer. The parents talk openly about their family members or their kids upbringing with open discussion about coming out.
As things have changed, teachers like knowing how best to approach topics that aren't quite normalized in many households so that the focus is on education while being sensitive to students who DO have this at the forefront of their minds.
It was just a few years ago when I had my first transgendered student, a transitioning woman who called herself "Angel." When I first was introduced to her, I didn't know she was transitioning and assumed she was an effeminate man. It wasn't until she was addressed as "her" in class when I noticed my own way of approaching her changed. Not better or worse, but more attentive to her identity and how she presented herself.
Now, in the local activist community, I've been approached by people who don't identify as male or female, and they're wanting to feel a part of the group without feeling "othered". It's a process I'm looking to figure out, as I will admit not knowing how best to approach it leading individually and leading the group as a whole, and this is with fellow adults! As things progress in society, my guess is that within the next generation (I'll only be in my 60s and still going strong), I'd like to know how to remain the educator within a society that recognizes the spectrum not only of orientation, but of gender identity.
So, I dunno. I think the pamphlet offers an idea. It's something to consider, not as a hard and fast rule, but a suggestion. I don't see the harm.
Apple Sugar
Active Member
I think the harm occurs in pointing out, regardless of any name allowed to take the place of traditional gender identifiers, is that the mere suggestion of a differing policy to address Trans-children, rather than marking the effort as one of inclusion, is actually aligned to not only demarginalize the child labeled something other than boy or girl. But is, per the example of purple penguin, something intended to mock them.
A boy who feels he has a girl inside and dresses the part is then a girl. That's what he's hoping to be identified as in society and according to his augmented appearance. He strives for that acceptance. Calling him a green turkey, if the field is open for any name to apply besides girl, mocks those efforts and the emotions that child is undergoing.
He's a girl. That's how he feels. Calling him something else just puts that hurdle of acceptance and achievement further away from his achieving his goal. Her goal.
That's harmful. He's not a purple penguin. He's a boy who feels like he has a girl inside him. I think the people who came up with this stupid idea have no idea what that means to a child. And that's why they're resorting to something reminiscent of Garanimals to prove it.
(OH look, the purple penguins are dating the green flamingos. Isn't that cute? ()Say what? ())
A boy who feels he has a girl inside and dresses the part is then a girl. That's what he's hoping to be identified as in society and according to his augmented appearance. He strives for that acceptance. Calling him a green turkey, if the field is open for any name to apply besides girl, mocks those efforts and the emotions that child is undergoing.
He's a girl. That's how he feels. Calling him something else just puts that hurdle of acceptance and achievement further away from his achieving his goal. Her goal.
That's harmful. He's not a purple penguin. He's a boy who feels like he has a girl inside him. I think the people who came up with this stupid idea have no idea what that means to a child. And that's why they're resorting to something reminiscent of Garanimals to prove it.
(OH look, the purple penguins are dating the green flamingos. Isn't that cute? ()Say what? ())
I never said there was an "advantage" I just said it was unnecessary to utilize only gender neutrality. As far as what I have read, and the people I have talked to there is no 3rd sex, so sexual identity is still binary, it merely depends on what the person themselves want to be called, due where they identify. (Yes, it is a sliding spectrum, but ultimately people choose the side they feel the most comfortable with). I have a trans-friend and even she has no issue with gender binary, as long as given the option to be who she wants to be.
I don't think gender neutrality is bad ('boys and girls' was never a common phrase in high school if I remember right). I don't think it is the only "appropriate" response though. If someone is trans and they identify with female, then they identify with the girls right? And if they are unsure, then that's ok too.
I don't think there is a males take shop, females take home economics thing anymore. When I went to middle school we were required to take both regardless of gender. There are no "gender roles" that are required anymore, if a woman wants to be the breadwinner then that is accepted, and if the man wants to be a househusband cool. And if they both want to work and take care of the kids, so be it.
Maybe I am just not liberal enough for this? Or do I just have too much faith in the ability of people to be understanding, decent human beings as long as they are given the appropriate knowledge of a group of people before hand so that conclusions aren't jumped too?
---------------------
Aaaand, I am gunna post this here anyways, but after conversing with a friend, I guess gender neutrality is the better way to go. Hmmmm.
I agree that the purple penguin thing is stupid... On the other side of that though, gender isn't binary in ones head either. There are people that identify with both male and female, and it can fluctuate (as which is common among some bisexuals and their sexual preference), gender neutrality will lead to more inclusion and easier for those whom identify not necessarily as one or the other, but are genderqueer, as long as they aren't mocking like the penguin thing is.
So... if race was as well-defined as gender, it would be okay for teachers to refer to their classes by race the way they refer to them now by "boys and girls"?
Sure. How would it hurt?
I understand just fine: after going on at length about how categorizing behaviours as "male" and "female" is based on stereotypical nonsense, you complain when people don't behave in suitably "male" or "female" ways.
You did write this, didn't you?
With what you wrote previously in mind, please tell me what you mean when you say that they "don't make the effort to present as the gender [they] want people to see [them] as". If the whole spectrum of behaviour and dress can be either entirely male or entirely female, how could a person behave or dress in a way that communicates to you that they're "not male" or "not female"?
While I know you're only feigning confusion, your post demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of the training. Did you even bother to read the article you linked to?
... which is completely beside the point. Even if it was absolutely clear what race each child in the class was, racial differences aren't something that a teacher should be emphasizing on a daily basis.
Not mentioning gender isn't a matter of pretending that gender doesn't exist; it's a matter of not portraying it as a relevant difference in an everyday classroom setting.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
If you look at other cultures, it is not at all uncommon to find a third sex, or even more than that. Anthropologically, there is no valid way to defend the statement there are only two genders. Because some people are born intersexed and with a number of chromosome pairings other than XX/XY, the biology of sex cannot be adequately summed up as male or female. Biologically, there is no valid way to defend the statement there are only two sexes.
They aren't trying to eliminate gender though.
That's not actually the biggest reason I see for not emphasizing gender in the classroom.
When we emphasize gender all the time, we're implicitly telling the children that whether they're a boy or a girl matters. Not only that, when we do it in the classroom, we're implicitly telling them that it's relevant to what they're learning in school: things like character and preparation for their futures.
It's not as explicit as telling them things like "girls can't be cops and boys can't be nurses"; it's just saying to them "your gender is relevant to how you're supposed to be and what your future can hold for you... and we're leaving it up to you to figure out how."
I think you're being ridiculous. I don't have a problem with a teacher saying "students" or "children". I also think there's an element of shaming in comparing the term "boys and girls" to something like "blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos, etc." as if it's even problematic to even recognize that boys and girls exist. You could've used an example such as hair color. Brevity is also important.
The only time I recall gender being brought up in elementary school is when we had to line up and go to the restroom. Putting the kids into lines is just the best way of managing them and the quickest way to get them to organize themselves. Kids aren't really going to hesitate when it comes to grouping themselves as male or female. Even a trans kid is going to group themselves with the group that they are expected to be grouped with, before coming out. But using things like interests makes things more complicated and the kids will have to stop and think about which choice they prefer more.
I didn't say it would hurt anything. Although, now that you mention it, it could come off as rude because people typically present as what they want to be called, when it comes to gender. Usually the name is a giveaway, too. I know I'd be offended if I was asked what my gender is all the time when I'm making an effort to present as male. I do not like being reminded that I am trans since being trans is a painful thing.
That's just common sense. I'm a transsexual man and I want society to recognize me as a man. Like it or not, there are many visual cues that people rely on in order to determine your gender. Much of this is subconscious and evolution plays a role in this.
When transsexuals transition, they're not only medically transitioning, they are also taking on the social identity of a man or a female. That includes presenting in a masculine or feminine manner which makes it easier to read the gender the person is. So trans men will bind our chests to make it appear flat, use prosthetic penises to pack with which creates a male bulge, get masculine haircuts, wear men's clothing, etc. Trans women may tuck their male genitals back in order to create the appearance of a female crotch, grow their hair out, wear women's clothing, etc.
There are also differences to the way males and females walk and differences between how males and females talk (it's much more than just how deep or high your voice is). So many of them under voice therapy and coaching in order to bring those traits into the range of their target gender.
Also, some of this is done simply because it is psychologically gratifying to us to see the traits we want on ourselves. I enjoy the way my chest looks when its bound and hate how it looks when it's not bound. I like the way my groin looks when I have a packer in my under. I enjoy shaving my head because it's a masculine look. Etc.
So we mostly rely on visual and vocal cues to "read" the gender of people. I don't care if you like it or not but that's just how it is.
So when someone is expecting to be called one thing when they're obviously not presenting as that gender, they're just being ridiculous. Those people are also making a mockery out of transsexuals who try so hard to fit into their social role as men and women. Then some girl wearing a push up bra, tank top and mini shirt gets mad because she isn't being called by male pronouns? Excuse me, but that's nonsense. You have to put effort into your presentation. If you don't even bother, than you're not going to be taken seriously and you shouldn't be, either.
I know this may come as a surprise to some, but most trans people are not attention whores and radicals. We mostly want to be left alone, not have to explain ourselves all the time and we're not out to "smash gender" and "destroy the binary".
Did you see the info I posted from an intersex organization? If not, here: Does ISNA think children with intersex should be raised without a gender, or in a third gender? | Intersex Society of North America
How can you assign a gender (boy or girl) without surgery? | Intersex Society of North America
Not all intersex people consider themselves to be a third gender or sex. Also, the notion of third (or more) gender in non-Western cultures usually has to do with setting up separate categories for people - excluding them from the label of "man" or "woman" - that have their own social expectations different from that of a man or a woman. So if you're a male in one of those cultures and you present as female and perceive yourself as a woman, you will be excluded from the category of "woman" and placed into a third category. Ladyboys in Thailand, hijras in India and muxes in Mexico are typically not seen as woman as cissexual natal females are. That's not helpful and is actually transphobic. I do not want to be viewed as belonging to some "third gender".
It's not a matter of me liking it or not. I'm just curious why a transsexual of all people would allow a man born with a penis wide latitude in how he presents himself, but not allow a man born with a vagina the same latitude. It makes no sense to me. I would have expected more empathy.
I think you're missing the point. If you're saying you're a man but you aren't doing anything to physically or socially communicate that, then how do you expect your perception of self to be honored? It's the same for anyone else. It's like androgynous people such as Jeffree Star. It wouldn't make sense for him to get mad over people referring to him as a woman when he presents in a feminine way.
When you're a trans person (whether transgender or transsexual), you have a certain degree of dysphoria. This dysphoria can be social or towards the body. It is often both. When you have social dysphoria, that means that you experience distress over not being perceived as the gender you identity as. To remedy that, people take steps in order to be more likely to be recognized as the gender they identity as. That doesn't mean they must undergo hormone therapy or have surgery, but it's how you present yourself.
I'm just being realistic.
Actually, I'd say you are.
Don't you realize the disconnect between what you're saying now and what you said earlier?
Except you just described people who didn't do this, so apparently this isn't universal.
The bottom line for me: I'm not going to tell any man - transgender or cisgender - that he can't be, say, a cross-dresser. Or gay. Or a nurse. Or that he can't do anything that's stereotypically considered "feminine". I'm still not sure why you would want to do this. I'm especially unsure why you'd want to do this for transgender people specifically.
Drolefille
PolyPanGeekGirl
My understanding is that hijras, for example, do not WANT to be considered "women". They want to be considered hijra. They don't want to be discriminated against for being hijra, but they aren't women. I can't speak to the others, this is just based on what I've read, so if someone has research to suggest otherwise I'd be interested.
I understand you're a man. But just as I'd never challenge your right to be a man, I'd never challenge someone else's right to be genderqueer, third gender, Two Spirit (it's not just appropriation actual natives use it and choose to use it rather than to be identified male or female, much as hijras don't), or, like a friend of mine just go by their name. Doug was mostly just "Doug." Doug was born intersex and had been raised as a girl, but Doug was equally likely to present more male (in a tank top, jeans and ponytail, yet still as male as any guy wearing the same) as female (earrings and hair done up.) I believe overall Doug preferred male pronouns but it was easier and equally preferable to just call Doug "Doug."
The idea of gender binary runs up into trans issues - there doesn't have to be conflict between those who challenge the gender binary and the trans community however. Rather than an acknowledgement that for some people they fit pretty strongly on the binary and others fall elsewhere in the spectrum and may present differently day to day. Does presentation matter in pronoun usage? Yeah, to an extent, but I'd hope that just because a friend you know to be female presents in a "masculine" or "male" fashion, you don't just start calling her a "he" because of how she looks. That wouldn't make a lot of sense.
I'm not. But I'm not going to explain myself again. Tired of repeating myself. A trans person would know what I mean.