Woman shot and killed for refusing to give man her phone number

Riverwolf · Oct 11, 2014

Alceste said:
I completely understand. Thank you for expressing your thoughts in an honest and non-confrontational way, in the spirit of this subforum. I also appreciate your willingness to listen to women sharing their experiences and what they think about them as opposed to denying or ignoring those experiences and telling us what we SHOULD think from a position of privilege and ignorance vis à vis female perspectives. You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how rare that is when discussing women's issues with men. That's why we have a word for it - mansplaining. You aren't doing it, and that's totally awesome.

Thanks. I do know how rare it is, and I don't want to do that. I may be feminine, but that's not the same thing as actually being a woman with all the experience that just comes from that biology. Therefore, I'm in no position to speak on behalf of your experiences and what you should do with them.

I won't hide my reactions, but neither will I say that they're necessarily justified. After all, while not the same reactions that all men have (I can't speak for all men, either), they may be similar enough to allow some further insight, which can help. I don't think a lot of people are entirely aware of why they have such reactions.

Alceste · Oct 12, 2014

Riverwolf said:
Thanks. I do know how rare it is, and I don't want to do that. I may be feminine, but that's not the same thing as actually being a woman with all the experience that just comes from that biology. Therefore, I'm in no position to speak on behalf of your experiences and what you should do with them.

I won't hide my reactions, but neither will I say that they're necessarily justified. After all, while not the same reactions that all men have (I can't speak for all men, either), they may be similar enough to allow some further insight, which can help. I don't think a lot of people are entirely aware of why they have such reactions.

I think you're probably right about that. My suspicion is that awareness of one's privilege is painful at first, and so the knee-jerk response is to deny it. You don't have an easier life because of your race, sex, ability, wealth, etc. but because you are more capable, smarter, stronger, or work harder than less privileged demographics, and you deserve the spoils.

As to why privilege awareness might be emotionally painful for some, primates have an innate sense of fairness, which probably evolved as a kind of social glue to keep groups bonded to one another, and we are primates.

Shadow Wolf · Oct 12, 2014

Alceste said:
I think you're probably right about that. My suspicion is that awareness of one's privilege is painful at first, and so the knee-jerk response is to deny it. You don't have an easier life because of your race, sex, ability, wealth, etc. but because you are more capable, smarter, stronger, or work harder than less privileged demographics, and you deserve the spoils.

As to why privilege awareness might be emotionally painful for some, primates have an innate sense of fairness, which probably evolved as a kind of social glue to keep groups bonded to one another, and we are primates.

I think a very big part of it is that privilege is very invisible by default to those who have privilege. It can seem painful to acknowledge, as it may indicate you didn't necessarily make it entirely on your own. It goes for anything, race, money, your parents, and other things that give people an advantage they didn't necessarily gain on their own merit alone. But it becomes obvious when you work hard, year after year, and just can't get ahead. It also becomes very obvious when you are born a male and start to live as a female. Then the male privilege becomes so painfully obvious that you have to acknowledge that your giving it up to be yourself.

Riverwolf · Oct 12, 2014

Shadow Wolf said:
I think a very big part of it is that privilege is very invisible by default to those who have privilege.

When we don't have context for the quality of our lives, compared to that of others', we automatically just assume that other people live the same way we do. When they don't, we automatically wonder why, and just assume it's some quality of theirs, perhaps a fault, that put them there. After all, ours is the default mode of living.

A much less serious parallel can be found in gaming. No, not the rampant sexism found there, but in the strong urges by reviewers to buy the games they review highly. "You have to buy this one!" And they say that for every game they like, almost as if their entire audience can afford those games like they can... and I can't. It makes me feel bad, despite the fact that I've probably got over 200 games on my computer, let alone all the games I have for all my consoles. (I think the key phrase is "you have to".)

What, then, would it sound like to a person who loves watching those reviews, but can't afford any games and maybe has a Game Boy hand-me-down lying around somewhere?

It's the "Let them eat cake" mentality. (Yes, I know Marie-Antoinette didn't actually say that; keep it moving.)

Shadow Wolf · Oct 12, 2014

Riverwolf said:
When we don't have context for the quality of our lives, compared to that of others', we automatically just assume that other people live the same way we do. When they don't, we automatically wonder why, and just assume it's some quality of theirs, perhaps a fault, that put them there. After all, ours is the default mode of living.

A much less serious parallel can be found in gaming. No, not the rampant sexism found there, but in the strong urges by reviewers to buy the games they review highly. "You have to buy this one!" And they say that for every game they like, almost as if their entire audience can afford those games like they can... and I can't. It makes me feel bad, despite the fact that I've probably got over 200 games on my computer, let alone all the games I have for all my consoles. (I think the key phrase is "you have to".)

What, then, would it sound like to a person who loves watching those reviews, but can't afford any games and maybe has a Game Boy hand-me-down lying around somewhere?

It's the "Let them eat cake" mentality. (Yes, I know Marie-Antoinette didn't actually say that; keep it moving.)

:clap
I've ran into abit of a problem at school a couple times with people assuming everyone has money for the class to meet at some of the more expensive restaurants in town. It's very frustrating to have your opinion of trying to keep it cheap being drown out by the enthusiasm for places that are going to cost at least a half-weeks worth of gas just for one meal.

MD · Oct 12, 2014

I have some solutions which would help drop all violence against women, but most people would be against it.

Alceste · Oct 13, 2014

shahz said:
I have some solutions which would help drop all violence against women, but most people would be against it.

Do tell.

MD · Oct 13, 2014

Alceste said:
Do tell.

Execute serial rapists for starters.

Make martial arts a mandatory class in school for all children. Give free martial arts classes in college to women.

Alceste · Oct 13, 2014

shahz said:
Execute serial rapists for starters.

Make martial arts a mandatory class in school for all children. Give free martial arts classes in college to women.

OK. Might make a dent. I'm content to lock up serial violent offenders for life. Violence against women is usually perpetrated by a current or former partner though. Not usually by a serial rapist.

MysticSang'ha · Oct 13, 2014

shahz said:
Execute serial rapists for starters.

Make martial arts a mandatory class in school for all children. Give free martial arts classes in college to women.

I agree that the justice system needs to enforce harsher penalties and sentences for sexual assault/battery/attempted murder perpetrators. They tend to go hand in hand many times.

I also agree that self-defense needs to be taught to everybody.

I submit that the legislation of VAWA needs to be instituted and enforced across the board that will make the biggest and overreaching impact on decreasing gender based violence against women.

MD · Oct 13, 2014

Alceste said:
OK. Might make a dent. I'm content to lock up serial violent offenders for life. Violence against women is usually perpetrated by a current or former partner though. Not usually by a serial rapist.

Quick executions, not locking up for life.

Violence is inherent biological in human beings, some more so than others. Violence against weaker people is also inherent in some human beings. Teaching won't do anything to change them, they must learn through fear. In some religions, the punishment for excessive domestic abuse is to allow the wife to beat the husband the same way he beat her. In many cultures the threat of male retaliation from the family members acts as a good deterrent.

If anyone ever hut my sister physically, I would break his bones. It would be better if she was trained in martial arts to break his bones herself. These are good solutions, but to most people in the West these probably sound like something a Sicilian Don or a Saudi judge would decree and would sound very uncivilized.

MysticSang'ha · Oct 13, 2014

shahz said:
Quick executions, not locking up for life.

Violence is inherent biological in human beings, some more so than others. Violence against weaker people is also inherent in some human beings. Teaching won't do anything to change them, they must learn through fear. In some religions, the punishment for excessive domestic abuse is to allow the wife to beat the husband the same way he beat her. In many cultures the threat of male retaliation from the family members acts as a good deterrent.

Whether violence is inherently biological or not, the problem I see in this approach is that it's quite paternalistic. Instilling male aggression as the better deterrent IMO puts us back to seeing the fox protecting the hen house. It would just be a matter of time before women should expect the men protecting them to enact their power and protection on them, if they considered standing against their protection.

If anyone ever hut my sister physically, I would break his bones. It would be better if she was trained in martial arts to break his bones herself. These are good solutions, but to most people in the West these probably sound like something a Sicilian Don or a Saudi judge would decree and would sound very uncivilized.

Maybe not uncivilized, but I'm not seeing how conducive it is to reducing attacks on women. It's returning to the paternalistic assumption that men should protect women from harm from other men. The problem comes from when there is a conflict between the woman and her promised protector. Who decides what is better for her and how much protection or surveillance she needs from the faithful men in her life?

Drolefille · Oct 13, 2014

MysticSang'ha said:
Whether violence is inherently biological or not, the problem I see in this approach is that it's quite paternalistic. Instilling male aggression as the better deterrent IMO puts us back to seeing the fox protecting the hen house. It would just be a matter of time before women should expect the men protecting them to enact their power and protection on them, if they considered standing against their protection.

Maybe not uncivilized, but I'm not seeing how conducive it is to reducing attacks on women. It's returning to the paternalistic assumption that men should protect women from harm from other men. The problem comes from when there is a conflict between the woman and her promised protector. Who decides what is better for her and how much protection or surveillance she needs from the faithful men in her life?

Bingo.

It also presupposes several other things, a that serial rapists are the major problem - I'd argue they are not, at least not how "serial rapist" is defined by typical modern culture. Also that the death penalty is effective at preventing rape. Two problems with that - it doesn't show an effectiveness at preventing murder and secondly that if the penalty for rape is going to be death, why won't they just kill their victims?

In the situation where I was legally sexually assaulted - although personally I don't consider myself a victim or survivor of sexual assault - I could easily have fought back. I wasn't physically overpowered. But I was embarrassed, ashamed, and froze. Martial arts training doesn't magically solve that fear response. It can help with confidence, but big strong touch, even martial arts trained guys have frozen up in the same situations.

Riverwolf · Oct 13, 2014

Drolefille said:
It also presupposes several other things, a that serial rapists are the major problem - I'd argue they are not, at least not how "serial rapist" is defined by typical modern culture. Also that the death penalty is effective at preventing rape. Two problems with that - it doesn't show an effectiveness at preventing murder and secondly that if the penalty for rape is going to be death, why won't they just kill their victims?

That's generally why rape and sexual assault are not punished with the death penalty.

Drolefille · Oct 13, 2014

Riverwolf said:
That's generally why rape and sexual assault are not punished with the death penalty.

Yep. I was simply elaborating the why.

MysticSang'ha · Oct 14, 2014

Drolefille said:
Bingo.

It also presupposes several other things, a that serial rapists are the major problem - I'd argue they are not, at least not how "serial rapist" is defined by typical modern culture. Also that the death penalty is effective at preventing rape. Two problems with that - it doesn't show an effectiveness at preventing murder and secondly that if the penalty for rape is going to be death, why won't they just kill their victims?

In the situation where I was legally sexually assaulted - although personally I don't consider myself a victim or survivor of sexual assault - I could easily have fought back. I wasn't physically overpowered. But I was embarrassed, ashamed, and froze. Martial arts training doesn't magically solve that fear response. It can help with confidence, but big strong touch, even martial arts trained guys have frozen up in the same situations.

Good points.

Woman shot and killed for refusing to give man her phone number

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi

Alceste

Vagabond

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber

MD

qualiaphile

Alceste

Vagabond

MD

qualiaphile

Alceste

Vagabond

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger

MD

qualiaphile

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger